The Ultimate Heel

[JerryvonKramer]

You mentioned DiBiase. DiBiase was an excellent heel too, and someone I'd probably rank above Rude just because he had more years as a top performer. Both are guys that reinvented themselves at the right times. DiBiase's best matches looked better at the time, while I think Rude's best matches look better now. I don't think DiBiase was a particularly "good" promo, but he was an effective one. Still, the argument against DiBiase is the same one it's always been -- where are the great matches? This may prompt goodhelmet to come in and talk about how he never saw DiBiase as a great wrestler, but rather as a great brawler, and surely the all stips match with Duggan will be brought up to point to that. But I think that's a bit of a copout, because DiBiase isn't talked about in the same breath as Hansen, Brody and Cactus Jack. He's considered more in the Flair/Windham/Michaels mold, and I think he falls short by that standard. I'm not sure what DiBiase has that isn't gimmicked to death that can touch Rude's amazing carry job of Warrior at Summerslam '89, or Rude's strong matches against Chono and Steamboat in '92. For that matter, I'm not sure what I'd point to for DiBiase that compares nicely to the TV matches Rude had with Pillman and Dustin in '92.

I know we went back and forth on this a few months ago, but that was as part of a GOAT discussion.

 

This is more about working heel and how effective the guy was at each of the component parts that his role required, rather than necessarily the great matches.

 

And when it comes down to it, where are the weaknesses in DiBiase's arsenal as a heel?

 

I'll admit, his best WWF match is a **** affair, and his best Mid-South matches are brawls and gimmicked brawls at that -- although on Goodhelmet's much quoted point about him being a brawler rather than a technical wrestler, it seems to me that AT NO POINT in his career was Ted seen as a brawler. He was WO's technical worker of the year for 1981 and on the commentary on the MidSouth set both Watts and Jim Ross pimp him as a scientific wrestler and he was seen exclusively in that mould as Million Dollar Man.

 

Anyway, I digress, I would like to posit the following claim: DiBiase in his WWF run was the master of the 10-minute TV match.

 

Working the crowd: he'd saunter down to the ring, always talking to himself, looking smug, generally with Virgil following him. He had a way of constantly reacting to the fans. Every match has the typical face shine and typical spot where he'll bail out of the ring. It's basics, ABCs for sure, but the crowd would always be 100% against him. Rude had the advantage of cutting the pre-match promo, which generated heat like anything. But DiBiase was generating heat just by his body language and breaking the face's momentum at the right time. It's very text-book, yes, but I'd argue perfectly done, and every time.

 

Offence (heat segment): so in this hypothetical 10-minute match, typically you've got about 6 minutes of heel offence. DiBiase was a master at building that well and getting more and more frustrated at the guy not staying down. First of all punches and kicks, then the suplex, then the piledriver, maybe a backbreaker, maybe that awesome powerslam he does. Then he'd have two standard transition or hope spots: one is the spot where he puts his head down for the backdrop (Gorilla: "that was a cardinal mistake for a pro") and the other is when he takes it to the turnbuckle. There is in fact also the spot where he goes for the axehandle from the second rope and takes the shot to gut and flips over. Anyway, the point is that no matter who he was working, the structure is all there. Must have been easy for an average worker like a Beefcake to work a Ted match. Most of the work was already done, put slot A into slot B, done. Is it such a good thing to be so formulaic? I don't know, but of all the workers who did WWF-style, I'm convinced Ted was the best heel they had for a 10-minute TV or PPV match. Ok, IWC is not going to rave about them, but in terms of being effective, getting over and getting the most out of the crowd each step of the way, who did that better?

 

Bump and feed: so Ted was trained by the Funks right? And he was very good at getting knocked down and then getting up for more, and showing that frustration that only the best heels have. It's hard to put into words, but it's something I think he did better, for example, than Rude and certainly better than Jake who everyone and their mother raves about. I'm not saying he did anything innovative, I'm saying he did the text-book stuff in a text-book manner.

 

Best of all time heel? I probably wouldn't go that far. But let me ask you this: did people cheer Flair when he was a heel in the 80s? Yes. Did people cheer Hansen? Yes. Who cheered DiBiase from 1987 till 1993? Aside from those fans in the front row at Wrestlemania V? Let me ask you this: if Jake was such a great heel, why did the fans turn him face? If Savage was such a great heel, why did the fans turn him face also? And Gurrero? And Piper? If these guys are such great heels, how come they worked babyface for most of their careers?

 

That's the thing: who are the real pure heels? People are talking about Valentine. He was over in the early 80s, but the crowd was dead for a lot of his stuff after 85. Can he really be that great? Well?

 

That's one thing Rick Rude does have going for him in this discussion, he was never cheered.

 

Four matches that would make an interesting comp in that vein:

 

* DiBiase vs Shawn from Hottest Matches

* DiBiase vs Bret from '89

* Rude vs Pillman from Pro in '92

* Rude vs Dustin from Worldwide in '92

 

Top heel vs perfectly capable midcard babyface, given a nice amount of time to put together a good match. All matches are really well-regarded, and it would make an interesting comparison.

I haven't seen those Rude matches. I'd also throw in DiBiase's 10-minute match with Dustin Rhodes from 91.

 

Also, while we're on this topic: I'd rate the '88 matches with Savage as being at least on pair with Rude's matches with Warrior. And DiBiase's own match with Warrior is arguably Warrior's best match outside of Hogan, Savage and Rude.

 

-------------

 

I'm going to throw out some more names:

 

Mr. Perfect

Nick Bockwinkel

Harley Race

Bad News Allen/ Brown

Brian Pillman

Andre

Hogan

Jerry Lawler

Vader

[Al]

I would probably go with Adrian Adonis. I always saw people like Rude as "cool" heels, like nWo-style heels. The first person that came to mind was "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan because he went from being the biggest babyface ever to the biggest heel in wrestling, which is pretty significant. It's just his body of work doesn't hold up. Especially with the WCW booking and "creative control" shit, leading to events like the Starrcade finish with Sting and Bret Hart and Nick Patrick.

 

Adonis could go, even when he ballooned up. I actually liked him a lot when he ballooned up because it made you hate his "pretty boy" gimmick even more. There was a show I saw where he came out with an oxygen mask and the commentators played it up as him only wanting to breathe the air from his hometown and not from the shitty city he was in. That's great.

 

Actually, although they weren't wrestlers, Slick & Bobby Heenan were great, great heels.

Heenan was absolutely a wrestler. He was a great bumper, but he was such a great manager and good heel that he would only get sent into the ring once a year by the 1980s. Check out this match though, against Sal Bellomo. Heenan at his heel best as a wrestler.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JawspciTz8

[Loss]

I know we went back and forth on this a few months ago, but that was as part of a GOAT discussion.

 

This is more about working heel and how effective the guy was at each of the component parts that his role required, rather than necessarily the great matches.

A good working heel has good matches. I don't understand the distinction.

 

And when it comes down to it, where are the weaknesses in DiBiase's arsenal as a heel?

I don't know that he has them. I am not bashing DiBiase.

 

I'll admit, his best WWF match is a **** affair, and his best Mid-South matches are brawls and gimmicked brawls at that -- although on Goodhelmet's much quoted point about him being a brawler rather than a technical wrestler, it seems to me that AT NO POINT in his career was Ted seen as a brawler. He was WO's technical worker of the year for 1981 and on the commentary on the MidSouth set both Watts and Jim Ross pimp him as a scientific wrestler and he was seen exclusively in that mould as Million Dollar Man.

Yes, he was seen that way. That's my whole point. That's why I think it's a copout to refer to him as primarily a brawler. Producing a list of awards and how he was talked about in commentary doesn't really prove anything except that he was considered a good technical wrestler, but not that he actually was one. That is where the video footage comes in, and the footage just isn't there.

 

Anyway, I digress, I would like to posit the following claim: DiBiase in his WWF run was the master of the 10-minute TV match.

Fair enough point. I would like to see them all listed. If he's the master, I am thinking there are probably a dozen or more matches that we can point to that are really excellent 10-minute matches.

 

Working the crowd: he'd saunter down to the ring, always talking to himself, looking smug, generally with Virgil following him. He had a way of constantly reacting to the fans. Every match has the typical face shine and typical spot where he'll bail out of the ring. It's basics, ABCs for sure, but the crowd would always be 100% against him. Rude had the advantage of cutting the pre-match promo, which generated heat like anything. But DiBiase was generating heat just by his body language and breaking the face's momentum at the right time. It's very text-book, yes, but I'd argue perfectly done, and every time.

 

Offence (heat segment): so in this hypothetical 10-minute match, typically you've got about 6 minutes of heel offence. DiBiase was a master at building that well and getting more and more frustrated at the guy not staying down. First of all punches and kicks, then the suplex, then the piledriver, maybe a backbreaker, maybe that awesome powerslam he does. Then he'd have two standard transition or hope spots: one is the spot where he puts his head down for the backdrop (Gorilla: "that was a cardinal mistake for a pro") and the other is when he takes it to the turnbuckle. There is in fact also the spot where he goes for the axehandle from the second rope and takes the shot to gut and flips over. Anyway, the point is that no matter who he was working, the structure is all there. Must have been easy for an average worker like a Beefcake to work a Ted match. Most of the work was already done, put slot A into slot B, done. Is it such a good thing to be so formulaic? I don't know, but of all the workers who did WWF-style, I'm convinced Ted was the best heel they had for a 10-minute TV or PPV match. Ok, IWC is not going to rave about them, but in terms of being effective, getting over and getting the most out of the crowd each step of the way, who did that better?

 

Bump and feed: so Ted was trained by the Funks right? And he was very good at getting knocked down and then getting up for more, and showing that frustration that only the best heels have. It's hard to put into words, but it's something I think he did better, for example, than Rude and certainly better than Jake who everyone and their mother raves about. I'm not saying he did anything innovative, I'm saying he did the text-book stuff in a text-book manner.

 

Best of all time heel? I probably wouldn't go that far. But let me ask you this: did people cheer Flair when he was a heel in the 80s? Yes. Did people cheer Hansen? Yes. Who cheered DiBiase from 1987 till 1993? Aside from those fans in the front row at Wrestlemania V? Let me ask you this: if Jake was such a great heel, why did the fans turn him face? If Savage was such a great heel, why did the fans turn him face also? And Gurrero? And Piper? If these guys are such great heels, how come they worked babyface for most of their careers?

That has nothing to do with being a bad heel and everything to do with being a good performer. Wrestling fans tend to take ownership of their heels after long runs. As Jim Cornette once described it, they may be assholes, but they are our assholes. It happened to Ric Flair too. I don't think you can hold that against a heel -- since it's nothing they have any control over -- unless their pops are actively hurting the babyfaces they are working with *and* they are using the situation to make the babyface look bad.

 

That's the thing: who are the real pure heels? People are talking about Valentine. He was over in the early 80s, but the crowd was dead for a lot of his stuff after 85. Can he really be that great? Well?

Trying not to jump on you too much, but you have a tendency to focus on post-prime of guys to make cases against them. Wrestlers getting old and not being as effective as they once were isn't a reflection of anything except that their best days are over. It happens to every wrestler. It's inevitable.

 

And not to belittle your overall point, but none of this does anything for me, because there are no real examples cited in any of this. The match you reference is hypothetical. A match list (a long one, not just "his matches with Savage" -- which are really disappointing to me) would be helpful.

 

Also, while we're on this topic: I'd rate the '88 matches with Savage as being at least on pair with Rude's matches with Warrior. And DiBiase's own match with Warrior is arguably Warrior's best match outside of Hogan, Savage and Rude.

If you ignore all the other good matches, it's the best of the matches left?

 

I'm going to throw out some more names:

 

Mr. Perfect

Nick Bockwinkel

Harley Race

Bad News Allen/ Brown

Brian Pillman

Andre

Hogan

Jerry Lawler

Vader

I'm going to challenge you on some of those names.

 

How can you make the case against Rude and for Perfect? DiBiase I get, but Mr. Perfect is probably the most overrated run in wrestling history. He had more good matches than most of his peers, but he took over a year and a heavy heavy push to even get over in the WWF, bombed at the gate when he got a chance as a headliner, and I don't remember any unusual heat compared to the other big WWF matches during the era.

 

Brian Pillman was a flash in the pan as a heel. I'd consider him more in the discussion for babyfaces.

 

Hollywood Hogan should absolutely be in this. Completely reinvented himself and managed to have a once-in-a-lifetime run ... twice.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'll come back to DiBiase tomorrow but on Perfect, I included him there because of all the heel over-sellers, the cliche cites him as the guy who did it the most and best.

 

In terms of his overness and heat: you're right, I can't think of a strong reaction either. Certainly nothing on the Rude or DiBiase level or Piper in '85-6.

 

He played the part to perfection though. His business with the towel and the chewing gum, his arrogance walking to the ring, etc. That said, I've never really thought of Perfect as an evil heel who was hated. I think he might have been a "cool" heel. It didn't take much for people to start cheering him in '92-3.

 

I'm not sure if "bombing at the gate" is fair though. What was this? Late 90? 91 even? Weren't gates on the decline anyway? I'd be interested to see the figures for Hogan vs. Perfect compared to Bret's figures as champ. How much is the heel expected to be the draw anyway? A good heel will help, sure, but people are paying to see Hogan right? I think Bill Watts talks about this on his shoot, something along the lines of "JYD would get you the gate, DiBiase would give you the match". Isn't that what Perfect was there for? i.e. The match rather than being the draw?

 

The other thing, and I assume you're talking about his run with Hogan, is that at the time Perfect would have SEEMED like an IC belt sort of guy to the average WWF fan. Where they ever buying him as a credible threat? I know he was 260lbs, but he worked like a smaller guy.

[Dylan Waco]

Pillman was a thousand times better as a babyface. I don't even think it's arguable. And this is coming from someone who really was a mark for the Loose Cannon stuff at the time and a guy who regards Pillman as one of his five favorite wrestlers ever. Pillman from 89-92 as a babyface was incredible and in a just World he would have gotten a bigger push and been a bigger star than he was as a face. He always rose to the occasion when given chances v. Flair, v. Luger, v. Windham. He could have fun sprint matches v. your Buddy Landel's. He could carry total scrubs like Scotty Flamingo (Raven sucked btw). He was great in tags. He was better than almost anyone in face v. face matches.

 

Post-heel turn Pillman was in an overrated tag team with Austin, went back to being a much lamer babyface and then hit with the Loose Cannon gimmick that was to true to life to be a money maker even if it was really interesting.

 

Anyway the point is I don't think there is anyway in hell Pillman belongs in a discussion of best heels.

 

I like the Eddy Guerrero in 97 and Arn picks a lot because they did have such outstanding range, with Eddy developing in a fascinating way over the course of the year and Arn being a guy that can switch gears and convey different things within the same match without losing his credibility. Both were great at bumping/eating offense from faces, brought really good intensity and viciousness to their control segments, had strong heel psych, were as good in tags as in singles, were strong on the mic (with Arn being the best on the mic in history in my view), could get over angles, et.

 

Buddy Rose hasn't been mentioned but he was an excellent heel with a unique gimmick that could be read a couple of different ways but always made him hate-able to the extreme. He might be my favorite heel of all time if not the best.

 

I love Rude in 92 as well

[Dylan Waco]

Also - and I like the Mr. Perfect character and think he was an excellent worker as a heel in the AWA - Hennig was a better babyface too. The AWA and Portland sets will prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

He was never a draw anywhere.

[smkelly]

Heels are as a different as faces, though.

 

Like there is a difference between the templates of Cena and Savage as faces.

Cena is the One Man Army. Like Sgt. Rock, the Hulk, or Superman.

Savage is the Maniac. Like Animal, the Tazmanian Devil, or Wolverine.

 

There are similar templates for heels.

 

nWo Hogan was the cowardly heel who had others fight the larger bloodier battles for him. Was the perennial champion, though was largely undeserving because he never really beat anyone by himself. Could be associated with a politician.

 

80s Ric Flair was the cowardly heel that played off the rich frat boy image – strength through numbers and lots of parties, booze, and loose women.

 

Rick Rude had the body of Adonis. And he was extremely cocky and arrogant about it.

 

Adrian Adonis did not have the body of Adonis, but thought he did. A faker. A fraud.

 

Vince McMahon is the evil American corrupt boss. The kind of boss everyone wants to see trip and fall down. His money and power has corrupted his soul.

 

Mr. Perfect was supposed to be the “perfect man.” The gimmick was unique at first, but wasn’t directed in the proper regards, as well the fact Curt was employed by the wrong company. Honestly though, the Mr. Perfect gimmick would have fit Rude better. Rude had the body to back up the connotations behind Mr. Perfect. But at the root of the gimmick is why it would be a great heel gimmick – the perfect man. Arrogance is bound to follow.

 

To the contrary, if someone pulled an Adrian Adonis with the Mr. Perfect gimmick, then it would work too.

 

Triple H and Randy Orton used a colder and calculated heel checklist – which I think the nicknames associated with the Cerebral Assassin for Hunter and the Viper for Orton are telling templates for both men. While Flair and his Horsemen broke legs, Orton tried to end careers by field goal kicking them in the head, and Hunter bashes people with a nine-pound sledgehammer. They were cowardly when confronted head-on, but if given the chance, they were willing to turn the dial to eleven. Both men have spent years trying to be talkers like Piper or Flair, but they are simply better suited to the ‘vicious’ from behind attacks than busting out A+ promos.

 

Edge was the cowardly opportunist. He was a bastard. Eddy and Chavo were cowardly opportunists as well, but with a more comical presentation.

 

Santino is a good example of the buffoon heel – a dork that is often funny, but annoying as hell, but surprisingly forward in a lot of his actions because they lead him to great physical pain. Michael Cole is less funny, and even more annoying.

 

JBL is the money-flaunting prejudiced Texan. Holier-than-thou in all respects. The “Million Dollar Man” Ted DiBiase took the overabundance of money heelishness in a different direction; he tried to buy his way into the top and he had a black servant. JBL did too for a short time. They were consist in the “too much money = greed and lack of morality” debate.

 

Alberto del Rio is the modern translation of the immigrant problem in America. And it is a successful immigrant story because del Rio is JBL rich. If he were presented more like JBL, he’d be the best realistic heel the WWE has had since JBL.

 

Eddy Guerrero and Bret Hart played angry minorities/foreigners. They questioned America and by default, Americans. Their remarks were geared towards making people more patriotic. Sgt. Slaughter was a traitor during wartime.

 

Shane Douglas and Jeff Jarrett were cowardly heels who could talk a huge game but hardly ever win any type of match cleanly. They loved to be champion but refused and tried to hide from defending their won championships. They were womanizers, liars, thieves, cowards, manipulators, and greedy, among other things. They were small man nWo Hulk Hogan’s during some pivotal years. They also exhibited some extreme heel tendencies – like Douglas attacking the Pit Bull that had a broken neck.

 

Mark Henry and Vader are the standard definition of monster heel. They’re monsters of men. And they generally pick on littler guys but can also take out a giant. The arch of big versus small has been popular for a very long time. Guys like Umaga added a twist to the monster gimmick – culture and stereotypes associated with primitive third-world or outside the grid cultures.

 

Mankind was the backwoods heel straight out of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie series. Insane, unpredictable, and willing to take absurd amounts of punishment, which he liked anyway, and looked the part of some inbred half-breed monster a person might run into out in the country where towns have a population below several hundred.

 

Sheamus at first was a straight ahead, no fear, IRA like solider, i.e. a powerful foreigner. He was a unique heel for modern WWE – a heel that was largely unafraid of the lead face and backed up what was perceived as arrogance. And he did it cleaner and in a less cowardly fashion than what Scott Steiner accomplished in WCW.

 

Guys like the Undertaker, Kane, and the Brood (all versions) were good heels for the occult world. Raven was a good heel for the Kurt Cobain early 90s apathy movement. The RTC were good heels for the evil that is censorship. Goldust was a perfect heel with his transgender/sexually confused gimmick a la Marilyn Manson.

[Al]

Eddie Guerrero was a good choice. The WCW Monday Nitro dvd has the match where Guerrero wrestled Juventud Guerrera. Coming back from a devastating car wreck, Eddie got a sympathetic crowd to completely turn against him in the span of about ten minutes.

[Coffey]

Heenan was absolutely a wrestler.

Well I knew he was a wrestler but I more meant I would nominate him for "best heel" based on his managerial work. I should have written it better. Much like my Hogan point, I wasn't saying Hogan was a cool heel, I was saying he was the first heel that came to mind for the thread. I just can't type apparently.

[JerryvonKramer]

smkelly - I think you could break those down into just a handful of generic types:

 

Super villian - this is your Lex Luthor type, a schemer who'd rather have other people doing his dirty work for him, he'd concoct elaborate plans to ensnare the face, only eventually to be foiled. This was Vince, DiBiase, Heenan, Hollywood Hogan.

 

Arrogant/ cocky heel - a huge variety of heels fall under this category. They think they are better than you and everyone else for whatever reason (in its purest form: Ornforff or Mr. Perfect). Under that you've got your Adonis/ sex appeal characters (Rude, Luger, Shawn Michaels, Venis) and your charismatic/ flamboyent characters (Flair, Tully, Piper, Rock), among others.

 

Kickass - this is a heel who is a tough guy, he might back down sometimes or use cheap tactics, but this guy can also kick ass. Harley Race, Arn Anderson, Greg Valentine, Bad News Allen, HHH.

 

Weak heel / Chicken shit - now pretty much every heel has a bit of this, but some, such as Honky Tonk Man or Jerry Lawler in the Bret Hart feud in '93 are booked to be UTTERLY cowardly and very weak and incapable of winning without cheating.

 

Monster - self explanatory. Vader, Bossman, Bundy, Andre, Yokozuna.

 

Almost everyone I can think of fits into one of those five categories. You can add other traits such as "foreign" or "sadistic" or whatever, but I can't think of another generic type of heel. Can you?

[Kostka]

Also - and I like the Mr. Perfect character and think he was an excellent worker as a heel in the AWA - Hennig was a better babyface too. The AWA and Portland sets will prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

He was never a draw anywhere.

I know Mr. Perfect era Hennig kinda gets shit on in retrospect, but what's your opinion of the Bret/Hennig matches? I remember really liking the KOTR 93 match, but it's been a while.

[El-P]

I know Mr. Perfect era Hennig kinda gets shit on in retrospect, but what's your opinion of the Bret/Hennig matches? I remember really liking the KOTR 93 match, but it's been a while.

I think it's a pretty great match, I actually like it better than the SummerSlam one. The way Hennig progressively heels up during the match is excellent. One of my favourites Hennig matches and I'm not a huge fan of face Mr. Perfect.

[El-P]

I was just watching the pre-Wrestle War 1990 shows, and it's interesting as to show how Luger was turned face after Sting's injury. Luger has had a pretty awesome run as a heel with the US title since mid-89, and he was put in the mix of the World Title chase after Starrcade. With Flair turning on Sting and Sting's injury, Luger had to turn face since they had no one else to fit the spot. It's amazing to see how in one segment, Ole turned Luger face again. The Horsemen mugged the Steiners earlier on the same show after Ole demanded them to not appear at Wrestle War. As Luger was the guest of Jim Cornette and he was just beginning his usual "Total Package" heel interview, self-absorbed and arrogant, the Horsemen hit the ring, surround Luger and Ole does his whole "we give you one hour to tell us you won't show up at WW" deal. At the end of the segment, fans were chearing Luger like crazy. He had been a heel twice already I believe, and had a successful run as a babyface against Flair in 88, and fans just immediately got behind him again.

 

One thing impressive about Luger, is how he stayed over consistently with the WCW audience during the whole decade despite turning face and heel a numbers of time, at points to a ridicule degree.

[Loss]

Sadly, the '91 turn when they put the title on him killed his heat off for good in WCW. By that point, he had just turned too many times for it to matter anymore.

[El-P]

Sadly, the '91 turn when they put the title on him killed his heat off for good in WCW. By that point, he had just turned too many times for it to matter anymore.

I'm not there yet. I totally forgot he turned heel again in 91 though. That would makes his third heel stint in 3 years or so, right ?

Well, I guess his comeback in 95 made him fresh again, since by 1998, when he was just cruising around with no real aim, the crowd went batshit insane when he joined the Wolfpack.

[Dylan Waco]

I like the Bret v. Hennig matches fine but I remember thinking Bret was the stronger guy by far in both matches.

 

It's funny to say since his most well known matches are the Bock matches (which hold up and are great), but I actually think Hennig was at his best in really urgent sprints. I think the AWA stuff will prove this and even something like his Coal Miner's Glove match with The Assassin from Portland illustrates how good he was in a balls to the wall setting.

[jdw]

Tully was a wildly great heel. Not sure I'd vote him #1 because he wasn't quite at the Anchor Major Promotion / World Champion Heel level... but he was really great.

 

Dundee would fall in the same boat. Terrific heel.

 

I think a cut above them would be Savage. Could bitch and stooge and bump and sell and make a face look great. But he also had a major sense of "danger": that he really was fucking great in there and could kick the shit out of a face and hurt them, or worse just snap the fuck off and REALLY hurt them. A little disadvantaged with Hogan because Hogan was so much bigger and not a Big Wrestler Who Sells Damage Great like Windham. Still, Savage *did* have good matches with Hogan, and drew extremely well opposite him. Savage was great on the mic in his own way, and could work storylines. Could mic arrogant, pissed, half nuts, and ever so slightly under the surface chickenshit if needed. Pretty much the total package of heels.

 

Of course Flair is up there. Never had the sense of danger in the World Title period simply because he didn't want to wrestler or act that way. He'd talk that shit, and get the rare thing of beating up Ricky Morton... but that really was a gang bang rather than Savage-Steamer where Savage did the solo number on Steamer. Flair talked and acted Champ to near perfection... except in the ring where he was his preferred Stooging Bitch Champ. He was terrific in that role... Savage was just slightly different. In a sense, Harley could stooge and bitch with the best, but he also did have a kick ass streak in his that Ric didn't really want to play as heel champ.

 

Jumbo as a clearer heel in 1990-92 than he had been in 1986-89 was about as perfect in his specific role as you could be: super credible puroresu rudo aging Ace annoyed at the upstarts who want his spot. Different from plenty of traditional puroresu heels like Dump and Pogo, etc. You watch him and wish that in the past 20 years we even had *one* heel who could totally pull that off (or be allowed to pull that off) to that level for 2+ years.

 

Dump of course was great in her role. Not 100% my cup of tea, but extremely effective with that right combo: perfect foil for the likes of Chigusa... with Chigusa & Co. being the perfect foil for her.

 

Slaughter in the early 80s was exceptional. Bumping, stooging, selling his ass off. Great gimmick, and really nailed it. He was also was such a large guy, and a "tough guy", that he came across as being able to put a major hurt on the face. His opponent was in for a war, though Sarge could do everything needed to be done to make them look good. Perhaps one reason I'm not a huge fan of the blow off with Patterson: it was a massively one-side ass kicking by Patterson, and not even sure if there was a big sense of peril that Pat was ever in much danger. The way it's worked, it's almost that Sarge would win via fluke if he was going to win... rather than getting his licks in on Pat.

 

Art was a great heel. Never know how well that came across on TV... but live, he often was up to some shit that attracted your eyes *while* enhancing the match. It wasn't like he was showboating to draw attention... but instead the attention helped sell the match. It also came across as a natural, rather than Trip-style of having to work really hard to be a heel... which is ironic since Trip is naturally an asshole in real life. Art was... just something else live.

 

Lots of lucha guys. Fuerza is partially akin to Tully: pretty much everything you want in a heel, but not a anchor heel. Fuerza wasn't as stooging/bitching as Tully, but had his ways of making a face look like a king... while also looking at times like a king himself.

 

As good as Tully was on the cut right below Anchor Heel, I tend to think the Midnight Express & Jim Cornette were on an even high plane as a total package. It's probably due to having three men out there to share the load of working the crowd, but there are times where their shit is nailed so smooth it's like a dance routine: this is Gene Kelley sloshes the water... this is where Gene looks up in the rain with that natural joyful smile on his face. And in a sense they shit was so smooth that it *was* like Gene: it came across natural, even when you break down exactly how:

 

* Corny distracts the rough, giving...

* Bobby & Dennis/Stan the chance to double team Rogers, causing...

* Fulton to get pissed and come in, just as...

* Corny points out to the Ref that Fulton is in the ring, causing...

* the Ref to force Fulton back to the corner out of the ring, while...

* Bobby & Dennis/Stan ratfuck over Rogers with more double team, causing...

* Fulton to go more batshit and the Red have to physically hold him back out of the ring...

 

And on and on. They have their shit down, they've done their routine so much that there's nothing calculating about it in a DDP "lets lay out every spot" sense... it feels so naturalist... except...

 

The reason it's so natural is that like Gene, they've "practised" this so much (not just the three of them but with the opponents and the Ref) that it's all a well oiled machine by the time the "tape rolls". They can wing it because they just feel they know what they're going to do when it comes time to do it, rather than this overly do-si-do shit we see at most any match we watch these days.

 

Add in Corny on the mic, there ability to "do stuff" which on top in face-in-peril sections and really have good stuff to fill that section, their selling and stooging with the best... they strike me as the total package of heel tag teams. Birds were better because they were on top, and they had a collecton of talents that goes together extremely well. I just find the MX package better, and as much as I like Hayes on the mic, Jimmy was better. One of my favorite Birds moments where Mike, higher than a fucking kite, was rambling a promo in GA that eventually ended up going nowhere... and Stoned Terry Fucking Gordy had to reel the shit back in to put over who they were facing in the coming week, where and that the faces where in for a good old ass kicking. Mike didn't go off the thread that badly regularly, but how often did Corny go off too far that he wasn't able to reel himself back in? That was one of the things that was great about Corny: he could go over there during an elongated squash match in the studio, talk shit with Tony & David, sound for a bit like he might just be bouncing off walls, but find ways to tie the thread back together to the storylines they were working, and then when the MX were done and it was time for the promo at the desk, he'd just fucking nail the hell out of it. I'm sure there were bad Corny promos in his prime... but I'd must have missed all of them at the time.

 

John

[FLIK]

Yeah, Dump Matsumoto is the greatest heel of all time. When your counter to a side headlock is to cut your opponent's hair until they let you go, you immediately win.

Yeah, i'd pick Dump as my #1 too. Just everything about her from literally the very second she comes through the curtain screams heel. Her music, her entrance, the terrorizing fans, the beating up anouncers, the army of cronies, the crooked ref in her back pocket, the look, the cheating, the pure meaness and evil of everything she does. Doesn't get any better.

 

I'll also toss out Mitsuhiro Matsunaga as another example since I don't think he's been mentioned yet. If you look his career he actually spent most of it as a beloved face but when you take him out of an environment like W*ING or Big Japan whear he was treated like a god and for example put him in a "pure clean wrestling" environment like Battlarts against Yuki Ishikawa he's awesome as the personification of evil, representing everything the fans of that style hate. STOP THE MATSUNAGA

 

Jumbo as a clearer heel in 1990-92 than he had been in 1986-89 was about as perfect in his specific role as you could be: super credible puroresu rudo aging Ace annoyed at the upstarts who want his spot. Different from plenty of traditional puroresu heels like Dump and Pogo, etc. You watch him and wish that in the past 20 years we even had *one* heel who could totally pull that off (or be allowed to pull that off) to that level for 2+ years.

On that note, Masa Fuchi. I'm not a reg All Japan watcher but I watched a few 92 matches a while back after having my interest peaked by the yearbook threads and came away wanting to see more Fuchi then anyone else just because he's such an awesome grumpy dickhead.

[smkelly]

Masa Fuchi

He is a natural heel. Has an unassuming body. Nothing particular about his face. But he is pretty much every single vulgar word in the dictionary. He won't move merchandise because of his look, but he'll bust his ass and have an excellent realistic violent looking match that makes the fans happy. So he wouldn't surpass some of the heels I hold to a higher pedestal, but he would be a valuable heel on any roster, and pretty much during any era because of his working ability.

 

Masa Fuchi vs. Ricky Morton? Please tell me it happened.

[smkelly]

Tully was a wildly great heel. Not sure I'd vote him #1 because he wasn't quite at the Anchor Major Promotion / World Champion Heel level... but he was really great.

 

Dundee would fall in the same boat. Terrific heel.

 

I think a cut above them would be Savage. Could bitch and stooge and bump and sell and make a face look great. But he also had a major sense of "danger": that he really was fucking great in there and could kick the shit out of a face and hurt them, or worse just snap the fuck off and REALLY hurt them. A little disadvantaged with Hogan because Hogan was so much bigger and not a Big Wrestler Who Sells Damage Great like Windham. Still, Savage *did* have good matches with Hogan, and drew extremely well opposite him. Savage was great on the mic in his own way, and could work storylines. Could mic arrogant, pissed, half nuts, and ever so slightly under the surface chickenshit if needed. Pretty much the total package of heels.

 

Of course Flair is up there. Never had the sense of danger in the World Title period simply because he didn't want to wrestler or act that way. He'd talk that shit, and get the rare thing of beating up Ricky Morton... but that really was a gang bang rather than Savage-Steamer where Savage did the solo number on Steamer. Flair talked and acted Champ to near perfection... except in the ring where he was his preferred Stooging Bitch Champ. He was terrific in that role... Savage was just slightly different. In a sense, Harley could stooge and bitch with the best, but he also did have a kick ass streak in his that Ric didn't really want to play as heel champ.

 

Jumbo as a clearer heel in 1990-92 than he had been in 1986-89 was about as perfect in his specific role as you could be: super credible puroresu rudo aging Ace annoyed at the upstarts who want his spot. Different from plenty of traditional puroresu heels like Dump and Pogo, etc. You watch him and wish that in the past 20 years we even had *one* heel who could totally pull that off (or be allowed to pull that off) to that level for 2+ years.

 

Dump of course was great in her role. Not 100% my cup of tea, but extremely effective with that right combo: perfect foil for the likes of Chigusa... with Chigusa & Co. being the perfect foil for her.

 

Slaughter in the early 80s was exceptional. Bumping, stooging, selling his ass off. Great gimmick, and really nailed it. He was also was such a large guy, and a "tough guy", that he came across as being able to put a major hurt on the face. His opponent was in for a war, though Sarge could do everything needed to be done to make them look good. Perhaps one reason I'm not a huge fan of the blow off with Patterson: it was a massively one-side ass kicking by Patterson, and not even sure if there was a big sense of peril that Pat was ever in much danger. The way it's worked, it's almost that Sarge would win via fluke if he was going to win... rather than getting his licks in on Pat.

 

Art was a great heel. Never know how well that came across on TV... but live, he often was up to some shit that attracted your eyes *while* enhancing the match. It wasn't like he was showboating to draw attention... but instead the attention helped sell the match. It also came across as a natural, rather than Trip-style of having to work really hard to be a heel... which is ironic since Trip is naturally an asshole in real life. Art was... just something else live.

 

Lots of lucha guys. Fuerza is partially akin to Tully: pretty much everything you want in a heel, but not a anchor heel. Fuerza wasn't as stooging/bitching as Tully, but had his ways of making a face look like a king... while also looking at times like a king himself.

 

As good as Tully was on the cut right below Anchor Heel, I tend to think the Midnight Express & Jim Cornette were on an even high plane as a total package. It's probably due to having three men out there to share the load of working the crowd, but there are times where their shit is nailed so smooth it's like a dance routine: this is Gene Kelley sloshes the water... this is where Gene looks up in the rain with that natural joyful smile on his face. And in a sense they shit was so smooth that it *was* like Gene: it came across natural, even when you break down exactly how:

 

* Corny distracts the rough, giving...

* Bobby & Dennis/Stan the chance to double team Rogers, causing...

* Fulton to get pissed and come in, just as...

* Corny points out to the Ref that Fulton is in the ring, causing...

* the Ref to force Fulton back to the corner out of the ring, while...

* Bobby & Dennis/Stan ratfuck over Rogers with more double team, causing...

* Fulton to go more batshit and the Red have to physically hold him back out of the ring...

 

And on and on. They have their shit down, they've done their routine so much that there's nothing calculating about it in a DDP "lets lay out every spot" sense... it feels so naturalist... except...

 

The reason it's so natural is that like Gene, they've "practised" this so much (not just the three of them but with the opponents and the Ref) that it's all a well oiled machine by the time the "tape rolls". They can wing it because they just feel they know what they're going to do when it comes time to do it, rather than this overly do-si-do shit we see at most any match we watch these days.

 

Add in Corny on the mic, there ability to "do stuff" which on top in face-in-peril sections and really have good stuff to fill that section, their selling and stooging with the best... they strike me as the total package of heel tag teams. Birds were better because they were on top, and they had a collecton of talents that goes together extremely well. I just find the MX package better, and as much as I like Hayes on the mic, Jimmy was better. One of my favorite Birds moments where Mike, higher than a fucking kite, was rambling a promo in GA that eventually ended up going nowhere... and Stoned Terry Fucking Gordy had to reel the shit back in to put over who they were facing in the coming week, where and that the faces where in for a good old ass kicking. Mike didn't go off the thread that badly regularly, but how often did Corny go off too far that he wasn't able to reel himself back in? That was one of the things that was great about Corny: he could go over there during an elongated squash match in the studio, talk shit with Tony & David, sound for a bit like he might just be bouncing off walls, but find ways to tie the thread back together to the storylines they were working, and then when the MX were done and it was time for the promo at the desk, he'd just fucking nail the hell out of it. I'm sure there were bad Corny promos in his prime... but I'd must have missed all of them at the time.

 

John

Thank you for that.

 

Do you see any good things in any current heels?

[Loss]

Masa Fuchi vs. Ricky Morton? Please tell me it happened.

It did, in Memphis in 1981, in a fairly famous match. Morton teamed with Eddie Gilbert, while Fuchi teamed with Atsushi Onita. The third Tupelo concession stand brawl.

[smkelly]

Little tangy tonight are we?

 

I meant exactly what I typed by the way. "Masa Fuchi vs. Ricky Morton".

 

Not Ricky & vs. Masa &.

 

Cause I didn't type that.

[Tim Evans]

I think Ricky vs Masa actually did happen in a singles match. Probably wasn't taped though.

 

My favorite Current heel in wrestling is Dean Ambrose/Jon Moxley in FCW. Also before he was fired, Lucky Cannon made a good heel too.

[artDDP]

It should also be mentioned that I can't recall Rude sitting in a chinlock very often, if at all. The camel clutch was his "resthold" of choice more often than not.

 

Side tangent: We've been through this before, but I look at resthold as a derogatory term, and I try to stay away from it. Wrestling would be better off now if fans were educated on holds and trained to pop for them. Restholds do exist, but if something serves a positive purpose in the course of a wrestling match, I don't agree with calling it a resthold. Laying on the mat and not doing anything does stink, but I think it's oversimplifying to immediately call anyone going to a reverse chinlock someone applying a resthold. (Not directed at you specifically, Jerry, more one of my many frustrations with how Scott Keith has influenced online opinion.)

How about fighting to get out of it? MMA guys fight, kick, and scratch to get out of them but pro wrestlers just lay there a while and then suddenly get their second wind? The guy applying it can just stand there and shake his head "No" while the guy in the hold can do all the work. If someone gets me in a sleeperhold I'm not going to just flail my arms and then crumple!

[jdw]

Do you see any good things in any current heels?

As the Ultimare Heel, or potential Ultimate Heel? No. It was getting fucked up by the late 90s.

 

John