MikeCampbell Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 We've pretty thoroughly covered the U.S. over the last few days, but who was best in the world? Anyone who knows me won't be terribly surprised by my pick. It's Jumbo. With Hansen right behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I am really high on Fujinami and Lawler for that decade. Also the Satanico footage I've seen from the 80's is really great. One wishes we had more Sangre Chicana though I'm not sure he would be a number one contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I agree with the sentiment on Chicana. From what I've seen, which is minor, has impressed me. Santo was awesome back then too. Jumbo was very good. As a tag or single. Flair is an obvious choice to throw in. Has a *huge* resume of matches that are at just 'good' levels. Choshu was in a lot of good stuff in the decade. Windham had a lot of great stuff, but the best was *against* Flair and Race. Steamboat had stuff against Savage, final conflict, and Flair. Hansen bares mentioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 El Dandy is another lucha worker who with the footage seems like he would be a lock for the upper tier and even without consistent footage his peak stuff is so good it would feel wrong for me to bump him down a perspective list. I wouldn't go to bat for him at this point, but La Fiera has been excellent in every match I've seen him in from the 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I really wish there was more Negro Casas footage from the 1980's, he was fantastic in his match with Santo in 1987 and a trios where he teams up with Charles and Blue Panther against Dantes, Ciclon Ramirez, and Super Astro. Hearing Kurt Brown talk about Casas in the 80's makes me wish I had a time machine. Santo has three classic bouts which include two with Espanto and one with Casas. He also had some fun stuff like the tag team match where he teamed with Atlantis to face Fuerza Guerrera and Lobo Rubio in 1984. I don't think he would be a best worker in the world candidate, but I feel like if we had more footage of Emilio Charles Jr. in the 1980's, he would be more appreciated and respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Emilo Charles Jr. is a tremendous worker based on the limited sampling I've seen. I'd actually put him in the upper tier of Luchadores I'm familiar with along with Dandy, Santo, Casas, Panther, Satanico, La Fiera and possibly Chicana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Not knowing jackshit about lucha, my choices will go with Jumbo, Fujinami, Flair, Takada, Hansen, Choshu, Windham... Well, and the three obvious ones : Devil Masami, Chigusa Nagayo and Jaguar Yokota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Funk, Murdoch, and Dundee are all guys who deserve mentioning at the very least. The 80's were pretty awesome, weren't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Can't believe I forgot Funk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Based soley on 1980-1989, whos better... Lawler or Funk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I'd go with Flair. Peak Lawler is better than peak Flair, but the sheer volume of good-to-great Flair matches is hard to go against. Then again, Memphis is kind of hit-or-miss for me. ETA: I'm a moron. I thought it said Flair. Between Lawler and Funk, I'd go with Lawler. I enjoy more of Lawler's stuff, and their peaks are about equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Funk v. Lawler from the 80's is tough, though I would lean Lawler. He's got more volume which strikes me as a reasonable tie breaker. On the other hand Funk has more variety. Fuck I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Whichever way you look at it, whichever way you argue it, whoever you pimp, whatever you say ... the answer is Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Lex Luger, Sting, Jumbo, Kerry von Erich, Barry Windham, Ted DiBiase, Ricky Morton, Terry Funk, Tenryu, Terry Taylor ... what do all these men have in common? They each had great matches with Ric Flair in the 80s. "But it was always the same match!" "No it wasn't, be quiet" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Lex Luger, Sting, Jumbo, Kerry von Erich, Barry Windham, Ted DiBiase, Ricky Morton, Terry Funk, Tenryu, Terry Taylor ... what do all these men have in common? They each had great matches with Ric Flair in the 80s. "But it was always the same match!" "No it wasn't, be quiet" This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Let me get this straight... you mean to tell me a wrestler who was always pushed as a top wrestler and a touring champion had good matches with... good wrestlers? Who knew? All joking aside, I'd agree it's Flair by virtue of his push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I am not saying this to dispute Flair but.... Hennig had great matches with Buddy Rose, The Assassin, Nick Bockwinkel, Wahoo McDaniel, Jerry Lawler, Greg Gagne, Stan Hansen, DJ Peterson to say nothing of being a great tag wrestler while not given the same push/opportunities as Flair. Bockwinkel had great matches with Hennig, Hansen, Martel, Wahoo, Lawler, Jumbo, Terry Funk, Larry Zbyszko, Hulk Hogan, Mad Dog Vachon, Pat O'Conner, Verne Gagne, Billy Robinson, Flair, Col. Debeers, et. (including borderline matches v. Manny Fernandez, Boris Zhukov, Jim Brunzell, Brad Rheingans, et, to say nothing of tag matches) years after his physical prime. Lawler had great matches with Dundee, Dutch Mantell, Tommy Rich, Kerry Von Erich, Eric Embry, Crusher Blackwell, Flair, Terry Funk, Austin Idol, Bockwinkel, Hennig, Savage, Bundy, Martel, Bigelow, et. and for most of this was having guys imported to challenge him, rather than being farmed out, which arguably makes it more difficult to have stand out matches week-to-week. Fujinami had great matches with DK, Vader, Kimura, Maeda, Choshu, Chavo, Teranishi, Killer Khan, and was an ace of two weight classes, plus was tremendous in multi-men gauntlet/elimination matches and tags. Hansen had great matches with Tenryu, Backlund, Andre, Baba, Inoki, Slaughter, Hennig, Funk, Blackwell, Martel, Jumbo, et. Who knows how many more would be on the list if he had stayed anywhere Stateside for any meaningful period of time. Rose had great matches with Marty Jannetty, Hennig, Martel, Chris Adams, Roddy Piper, Backlund, Matt Borne, Rip Oliver, DK, Steve Regal (shitty ass Mr. Electricity variety), Brett Sawyer, Jay Youngblood, Steve Pardee, Butch Miller, et. to say nothing of his many great tags/six mans (and this is ignoring his run from 77-79 which is as good or better and where several other names could be dropped on the list). Jumbo had great matches against Tenryu, Hamaguchi, Bockwinkel, Kerry Von Erich, Flair, Dick Slater, Misawa, Martel, et and this is coming from someone who isn't even THAT high on Jumbo. You could drop laundry lists for others as well. Not trying to diminish Flair but this is common with great workers. Even guys like Tenryu who had a lot of his great performances of the decade in tags or Funk who was "hear today, gone tomorrow" for a huge chunk of the decade have great matches against a variety of opponents. Some one like Dick Murdoch who is not always considered "upper tier" probably has as diverse a list of opponents he had high end matches with as anyone. Someone like Harley Race who was considered washed up half way through the decade has several opponents where he had at minimum borderline great matches and he's not a guy who we have anything near a complete composite of. Backlund who is still a divisive worker to say the least has matches that could safely be called great against a pretty broad variety of workers. Et., et., et. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Dylan, I think the difference between Flair's laundery list and almost everyone else's ... well actually I think there are two main differences: 1. Flair's laundery list is creme de la creme -- it's a Who's Who of wrestling, top tier guys, wrestling royalty, everyone from guys like Windham and DiBiase tipped for greatness from the start to guys like Jumbo and Sting who were picked to be company aces to the great champions of the past (Race, Bockwinkel, Funk) to "greatest worker of the era" type guys (Steamboat, Morton, Tenryu) to "broomsticks" (Luger) and self-promoting fat men (Dusty) to guys far below his level (Ron Garvin). That's not only everyone who is anyone it's also EVERY TYPE of worker as well. Sure, all the laundry lists you put up there are impressive in their own way, but Flair's laundry list is the laundry list of ALL laundry lists. 2. Which brings me to point 2, which is that he had great matches and feuds from the start of the decade, to the middle of the decade to the end of the decade against guys from different eras working different styles. Incidentally, my GOAT argument for Flair pretty much also rests on this. He's the ONLY guy in history to have matches with the Funks, Race, and all of the greats from that 70s generation through the 80s to many significant workers of the 90s and 00s (Hogan, Shawn, Bret, Austin, The Rock, Benoit, Jericho, etc. etc. etc.) In fact find someone who is ANYone from 1975-2008 who hasn't locked up at some stage with Flair. That's pretty much a once in a millennium sort of career. No one else has Flair's career and we'll never see it's like again. Ever. You can rest the case on his American Majors career alone, but the fact he has the great matches in Japan, and in most of the main US territories makes him not only a nail on for 80s worldwide worker but also for GOAT. I know you put a really strong case for Funk on the podcast Dylan and I think he is right up there, no doubt, but with Flair it's just the sheer volume, the sheer numbers, the sheer breadth, scope and variety. It's insane. Funk has a hell of a laundry list too and it stretches further back than Flair's and he has the ECW stuff that Flair doesn't have. But I don't think that can compensate for the above. Way I look at it is that you could probably take Funk out of wrestling history and while there'd be a pile of great stuff we wouldn't have, each of the promotions for whom he worked would probably easily be able to retcon it. Because he never hung around for long. Try to take Flair out of wrestling history? To make a really really strange analogy, if wrestling history was a house of cards -- Funk would be one of the ones on the side or maybe even right at the top. You could probably pick it off without the whole thing crashing down. Flair is like the cards right on the bottom row - take one of those out and the whole thing crashes down. I wrote more than I meant to then -- it's easy to get burned out on Flair, it's easy to criticise him, but even more so it's easy to take him for granted. I accept the GOAT debate is not as cut and dried as that, but if he's not number 1, he's number 2 at the very least. For 80s though, I think everyone else is battling for number 2 spot. And in fact I think number 2 spot is a much more interesting debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 I see your point, but in a way I find it LESS impressive. Yes he has more matches against big name guys than pretty much anyone in history, but most of those guys were quality workers, so it is hardly surprising that he has good matches with them. Buddy Rose having great matches with sorry as Steve Regal, green Steve Pardee, Butch Miller, et. is more impressive to me, especially since he was not as formuliac as Flair when working with lesser talents. Still I agree with the thrust of your point. Having said that, Lawler is a definite contender for one and I see no reason to pretend he isn't. Same with Fujinami. There are others. Flair is not lapping the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think after the NWA DVDVR set, Flair's already considerable stock will rise ten-fold. I think some people are forgetting that it largely didn't matter who was in the ring with Flair - they were going to have a good match. I mean, how many workers could lead *Lex Luger* (in '86) through a 2/3 falls match that went broadway? I think Flair's resume of matches in the '80s would be something to see. At any rate, if a Goodhelmet Ric Flair Production were to ever occur, the argument would be over. Would probably seal him in the GOAT top-five without problem - maybe even #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 The answer is Yoshiaki Fujiwara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Or Nobuhiko Takada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Blah. I've actually watched a UWF show yesterday, with two great matches : Super Tiger vs Fujiwara and Yamazaki vs Takada. First time I watched a Takada match in ten years probably (although maybe I re-watched some for the GWE poll), and I'm glad I have a "dated" opinion because Takada in 84 was already one hell of a worker. The notion that he sucked is now laughable to me, complete with updated viewing. And yes, I thought Fujiwara was awesome BTW, and if he's working at the same level all the time during his UWF stint (which I don't doubt, I don't see why he wouldn't), I have no problem with calling him a great worker, at least during that period. I'll watch more UWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Pirata Morgan, Satanico, Negro Casas, El Dandy, Sangre Chicana, Brazo de Oro, Brazo de Plata, Villano III, MS-1, Super Astro, El Faraon, Colosso Colisetti, Santo, Rambo, Espanto, Perro Aguayo, Blue Panther, Solar, Emilio Charles, Mocho Cota, Herodes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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