Ken Patera

[jdw]

I cut Chris some slack since it's a shitload of data to sift through, and instead he probably just dumped it into a database for easy counting. But if you know it's going to create poor data, then you need to slow down to think about how to get better data. Just thinking through something as simple as this:

 

"65% main event rate for Hogan in 1985-89? Alright... there's a flaw in there we need to figure out..."

 

Get you down the road of fixing things.

 

If it takes another six months of spending time manually identifying the real main events (or double main events), then do it to get good data.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Other than SNME, how often did Hogan take the middle match of a show rather than the last one?

[JerryvonKramer]

Two more things looking at that data.

 

1. Seems bizarre that Papa Shango would headline 59 shows in 1992, so I looked up to see what those matches would be. Vast majority of them are jobs to The Ultimate Warrior around the horn with a sprinking of losses to Bret Hart and The Undertaker, but they also inclide:

 

Papa Shango pinned Brian Costello at 2:13 with the reverse shoulderbreaker

Papa Shango pinned Victor Reed at 1:34 with the reverse shoulderbreaker

 

They don't look very main event-y. Looking at those cards, I didn't know Jim Brunzell was still around in 92.

 

2. Going back to an earlier argument in this thread, Dylan look at this:

 

Ted Dibiase: 287 matches (1979 to 1993)

Sgt Slaughter: 282 matches (1980 to 1994)

Jake Roberts: 282 matches (1986 to 1996)

Ken Patera: 278 matches (1972 to 1988)

 

[shoe]

Other than SNME, how often did Hogan take the middle match of a show rather than the last one?

 

Jerry in the 80's the normal way was depending on the city you'd either get 2 or 3 main events of the same guy. For example here in Houston the 1st match between Hogan and Bossman would go on before intermission . The finish would be some screw job, or an angle to set up the next match. At intermission the announcer would announce tickets would be on sale for the date and time for Hogan/Bossman in a cage. This would be the blow off match, and would go on last. By this point a new program would be in effect and it would be advertised , and the cycle would continue.

[shoe]

In 88 and 89. I would see Hogan vs Bossman, Savage vs . Dibiase , and Hogan vs. Savage. All of these would go on before intermission. The blow out would take place in a cage. Simple , but effective booking.

[JerryvonKramer]

shoe - let me get this right, Hogan and Bossman would have 3 different matches in Houston.

 

Night 1 - match before intermission

 

Night 2 - angle

 

Night 3 - blow off

 

Is that right?

 

If so, what is "main eventing" night 1?

[shoe]

No I wasn't clear . Depending on the city you'd get 2 to 3 matches. In Houston we'd get 2. The 1st match before intermission , and then a couple of months later the blow off in a cage.

[shoe]

The match before intermission was the main event for night one. What they would put on last would be a program that is pretty hot like a Jake/Rude match or something in that ilk. Another time we had the Rockers vs. Brain Busters on last.

[Dylan Waco]

Two more things looking at that data.

 

1. Seems bizarre that Papa Shango would headline 59 shows in 1992, so I looked up to see what those matches would be. Vast majority of them are jobs to The Ultimate Warrior around the horn with a sprinking of losses to Bret Hart and The Undertaker, but they also inclide:

 

Papa Shango pinned Brian Costello at 2:13 with the reverse shoulderbreaker

Papa Shango pinned Victor Reed at 1:34 with the reverse shoulderbreaker

 

They don't look very main event-y. Looking at those cards, I didn't know Jim Brunzell was still around in 92.

 

2. Going back to an earlier argument in this thread, Dylan look at this:

 

Ted Dibiase: 287 matches (1979 to 1993)

Sgt Slaughter: 282 matches (1980 to 1994)

Jake Roberts: 282 matches (1986 to 1996)

Ken Patera: 278 matches (1972 to 1988)

 

Heh. I mentioned the flaws in the data in a note over at Classics. I wonder if Dave will respond to it. I get the feeling Dave doesn't see Patera as a particularly strong candidate and is almost annoyed that I'm working on this stuff, but I could be reading him wrong.

 

In any event he was very dismissive of Patera's 199 major market main events in his original note without even noticing/caring that major markets is drastically different than main eventing any little show, let alone the fact that he didn't mention the "going on last" flaw in his comment which is a pretty glaring omission for anyone who is familiar with the WWF during that period.

 

I did note that by Chris metrics Patera does quite well on the surface finishing "first" in that dubious category in 1980 and fifth in 1977 which were his only two complete years in the WWF, with a combined 160 "main events." In other words if I really wanted to pad the stats for Patera I could...very easily.

[jdw]

Other than SNME, how often did Hogan take the middle match of a show rather than the last one?

Lots.

 

Again, in 1985-89, only 65% of his matches were called "main events" by Chris. I think everyone who knows anything about the WWF in that period would agree that any data set that produced that result was wildly flawed / wrong / screwed up beyond being useful. In fact, it's such an obvious flaw that it should have forced him / anyone to go back to the drawing board to address it.

 

John

[mookeighana]

So, looks like I caused all sorts of chaos with my "factoids". Here's what happened... I posted something on the WO board in an old thread about main events with the disclaimer: " I was looking at who was in the most "main event" each year. I used the simplistic definition of "last match on the card/taping" so there are going to be some false positives - times when ECW was taped after one of the bigger shows, times when they did a marathon taping, times when the biggest stars were working several cities so they worked mid-card and flew out to another show, when more than one crew is performing on the same day you might have a b-star 'headlining', etc. However, in general, it gives a quick feel of who were the top guys each year, at least by card positioning. "

 

Two people responded and that was that.

 

I specifically said, "this seems like it's probably wrong for the 70s and early 80s".

 

Then, out of the blue, Dave took what I posted and added it to the Newsletter. I thought, "neat" and just went on.

I did a simplistic analysis and I knew it wasn't right, but I didn't test it enough and look for the holes that would have been a lot more evident had I tried to think about the years individually, instead of devouring the whole 41 years at once.

 

It was just a work-in-progress thread. I was looking for more feedback so I could refine the model, just like you have all been doing here.

 

Later, as an improvement, I made this chart but I don't know if anyone ever noticed it:

 

I wanted to look at who was in ring with the world champion each year. These were either the tag partners or opponents of the person holding the top belt(s) in all the varied spellings and forms: (included the titles of...) WWF Champion, WWE World Champion, World Heavyweight Champion, WWWF World Champion, WWE Smackdown! World Champion, WCW World Champion (I did count the invasion belt), WWE Raw World Champion, NWA World Champion (mostly Harley Race appearances), WWE Champion.

(I didn't count the ECW belt since that was never really promoted as being the top title. Obviously, there are times when the IC belt was a monumental achievement, but since it's waned in important over the past 15 years, I left that out of the list.)

 

Top Fifty Guys who were in the Ring with the at-the-time World Champion

1. the Undertaker: 444 matches

2. Randy Orton: 417 matches

3. Triple H: 357 matches

4. the Big Show: 347 matches

5. John Cena: 315 matches

6. Batista: 312 matches

7. Glen Jacobs: 296 matches

8. Edge: 260 matches

9. Chris Jericho: 232 matches

10. Ric Flair: 222 matches

11. Shawn Michaels: 199 matches

12. Kurt Angle: 197 matches

13. Randy Savage: 181 matches

14. Rey Mysterio Jr: 166 matches

15. the Rock: 145 matches

16. John Bradshaw Layfield: 144 matches

17. CM Punk: 142 matches

18. Owen Hart: 142 matches

19. Chris Benoit: 133 matches

20. Mark Henry: 128 matches

 

So, for John defending me, thanks but in this case I was kinda dumb. (But in my defense, I didn't expect Dave to post my list because it was just a thread I threw out there.)

 

(Also, the Main Event data assumes the order on TheHIstoryofWWE is right which I've noticed is often not the case, especially for house shows.)

[jdw]

The work-in-progress stuff perfectly explains it to me, as does Dave just running off half cocked on it... because that is very Dave.

 

As I said earlier:

 

"Chris is a smart guy. He wouldn't have done that."

 

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I never would have mentioned anything about it had Dave not invoked it as some sort of proof that Patera's record wasn't particularly impressive. Certainly wasn't meant as a shot at you Chris.

[thebrainfollower]

I can add this information. In all the WWF tv tapings I attended the main went on last. Believe me once you hit 12am (and I once went to a show that ran for nearly 6 hours) the only thing that would keep most of the crowd present was Hogan.

[jdw]

The problem is that Graham's info for Expansion Era tv tapings doesn't always list the Dark Matches "last" or even in the order they took place in the card.

 

The first Hogan-Flair was a dark match at a TV taping:

 

WWF @ Dayton, OH - Nutter Center - October 22, 1991

Wrestling Challenge taping:

Million $ Champion Virgil & the Big Bossman defeated Ted Dibise (w/ Sensational Sherri) & IRS when Virigl pinned IRS with a roll up after Sherri accidentally hit IRS with her high heel shoe (Crunch Classic)

The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) pinned Davey Boy Smith after hitting him with the urn

Prime Time Wrestling - 11/18/91: Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty fought the Beverly Brothers (w/ the Genius) to a 15-minute time-limit draw; due to commercial, only 11:11 of the match was shown; the bell rang as the two teams fought in the ring and on the floor; after the bout, Michaels & Jannetty cleared the Beverlys from the ring

Prime Time Wrestling - 11/18/91: WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated Skinner via submission with the Sharpshooter at 6:57

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/2/91: The Warlord (w/ Harvey Wippleman) defeated Montana Miller via submission with the full nelson at 1:59

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/2/91: The Natural Disasters (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Mike Samples & Greg Green at 3:05 when Typhoon pinned Green with a splash following Earthquake's sit-down splash

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/2/91: Tito Santana pinned the Barbarian with a roll up at 7:56

WWF IC Champion Bret Hart vs. the Undertaker

Ric Flair (w/ Bobby Heenan) defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (sub. for Roddy Piper) via count-out when Heenan grabbed the champion's leg, preventing him from returning to the ring; after the bout, Hogan attacked Heenan; although the Oakland show is generally regarded as the first Hogan / Flair bout, this is the true first meeting

11/10/91 - included Ric Flair, Ted Dibiase, Sensational Sherri, Jimmy Hart, the Warlord, and Harvey Wippleman as guests of the Barber Shop in which they discussed their match at the Survivor Series (the Mountie was not present):

WWF Tag Team Champions the Legion of Doom defeated Barry Horowitz & Ben Jordan when Road Warrior Hawk pinned Jordan at 2:07 following the Doomsday Device

The Berzerker (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Brad Kramer via count-out at 1:51 after throwing his opponent to the floor

The Big Bossman pinned Montana Miller with the sidewalk slam at 1:17

Repo Man defeated Rock Werner via submission with a leglock; after the bout, Repo tied his opponents' feet together, then hooked them around the ring ropes, before continuing to attack Werner (Repo's in-ring debut)

The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) pinned Kerry Von Erich with the Tombstone at 3:42 after the flying clothesline; during the bout, a casket was at ringside with Hulk Hogan stickers placed all over it

11/17/91 - included Gene Okerlund conducing an interview with Randy Savage & Miss Elizabeth:

Kerry Von Erich defeated an unknown

Tito Santana defeated an unknown

Skinner defeated an unknown

Ted Dibiase (w/ Sensational Sherri) & IRS defeated the Bushwhackers at 3:50 when Dibiase pinned Butch after IRS hit Butch in the back with his steel briefcase as Butch ran the ropes behind the referee's back

11/24/91 - included the Undertaker & Paul Bearer as guests of the Barber Shop in which they discussed the Undertaker's match with Hulk Hogan at the Survivor Series:

Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated Kato & the Brooklyn Brawler when Michaels pinned Brawler after press slamming Jannetty onto him; during the match it was announced that Shawn Michaels would face Beau Beverly at the Survivor Series Showdown, but that match never took place

The Mountie (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Burt Stiles at 1:07 with a double handed chokeslam; after the bout, the Mountie used his shock stick on the opponent

Jim Duggan defeated Jerry Saggs (w/ Jimmy Hart & Brian Knobbs) via disqualification at 2:40 when Knobbs interfered; after the bout, the Nasty Boys double teamed Duggan, clotheslining him with the American flag and breaking it in half, until Sgt. Slaughter made the save, sending the Nastys to the floor and throwing Jimmy Hart onto them; moments later, Duggan gave Slaughter the flag, which Slaughter then saluted and kissed, before the two men shook hands

Davey Boy Smith pinned Tom Stone with the running powerslam at 1:28

The Beverly Brothers (w/ the Genius) defeated two unknowns at 1:55 when Beau scored the pin following the Beverly Bomb

He essentially lists the Wrestling Challenge "shows" in order last, by what appeared on them in the order they appeared. That doesn't mean the matches were taped in that order: stuff was spliced together. In turn, he lists the non-Wrestling Challenge stuff at the top, so of which was for Primetime, some for CHV, and in the case of Hogan-Flair, essentially a dry run of the match before it started around the horn.

 

Does a TV taping like that have a true Main Event?

 

Hard to say. I went to a pair of TV tapings, one in Long Beach (old school syndication) and another in San Bernadino (Raw in the days after they moves out of the Manhattan Center and into arenas). I don't recall any "main event" being pimped in tv promos leading up to either. I could be wrong... but just don't recall. But in the first, there was a Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow title dark match, while the second had a Shawn Michaels vs Jerry Lawler which was the day after Shawn won the title... but it also aired on Raw. The Bret-Bigelow match 100% didn't take place where Graham has it listed, but again... it's tough to document the order of matches on a taping, and it also doesn't lend itself well to what Graham is trying to do with tapings (he actually presents the info in the most useful fashion).

 

There probably were some tapings where a clear "main event" was pimped in local promos leading up to the event. Also, on some level, if the World Title / World Champion worked in a non-squash, that probably was the main event. But it's really tough to figure out in the old form of tapings.

 

John

[thebrainfollower]

For all the Worcester MA TV tapings the card was listed as a competitive card via the event center with Jerry's hero Sean Mooney. They'd list 6-8 competitive matches. At no point was anyone told this was a TV or SNME taping (did both). I remember being psyched to find out I would see virtually the entire roster in one night once I got there and the squashes begun. In all the shows I remember with Hogan he went on last for those.

 

One of those was a marathon session where they taped 4 weeks of Superstars, the Summerslam 91 USA pre show and 4-5 dark matches. Warrior no showed (though he was scheduled against Mr. Perfect, who was so badly injured at the time his squash consisted of a few punches and tossing the guy to the floor for the countout), Sid Justice debuted, we were told Ric Flair was on his way, and Hulk Hogan faced the Undertaker for the first ever time 1-1. Pretty special show. Started at 7:30pm and to this day I remember the clock on the microwave reading 2:30 when we got home (45 minute ride home but still that's insane). The main event was released on Hulkamania VI. Also the length was partially caused by the Beverlys botching the Shaker Heights spike on some jobber and it taking 20 minutes for him to be cleared out (and when wwe.com showed that episode I could still tell the move was messed up badly)

[jdw]

I don't remember the build up of the Long Beach one, though we knew it was a TV taping. I don't know if it was told on the Event Center... maybe Hoback, Yohe and I know it was a TV taping because we all subbed to the WON (though I don't know how often Dave would be explicit on where the next round of tapings would be).

 

I'm pretty sure Bret-Bigelow didn't go on last. It was a long taping, not helped by having to retape Yoko butt dropping on a guy a second time... after botching the first one and hurting the jobber, who was then forced to go back in and take a second one. Kayfabe totally broken infront of the fans.

 

John

[thebrainfollower]

That's very possible JDW. I don't recall the words TV taping ever used on TV and they never feature in any event center promos I have. I remember "getting" how the tapings were done at that first taping, prior to that I just figured Superstars and Challenge were live shows.

[WingedEagle]

Time for a Patera set. I currently have no interest in the AWA set but would love to check out more Patera. I caught the tail end of his WWF run and have checked out a few other outings online, including the MOTY, but want to see the guts already.

[goodhelmet]

Like most guys who had big peak runs in the 70s, may be hard to do. I will research it.

[WingedEagle]

If footage is that hard to come by, maybe a collection of Patera & a couple others from that era for whom footage is similarly lacking? "The Forgotten Few" or some nonsense like that where availability dictates a broader there.

[jdw]

A fair amount of Patera will probably come out with the 80s set when they get to the WWF.

 

Beyond that, he might be someone to wait just a bit on because more might pop up. Such as the earlier run in the WWWF where limited numbers of the taped matches have come out. Also, there's some NJPW stuff that was in the "home taping era" and it right up against what Dan G has been able to locate:

 

01-09-81 Ken Patera d. Riki Choshu

01-16-81 Antonio Inoki & Riki Choshu d. Ken Patera & The Enforcer

01-23-81 Ken Patera d. Tatsumi Fujinami (taped 1-22)

01-30-81 Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi & Riki Choshu d. Bad News Allen & Ken Patera & Tiger Jeet Singh

02-06-81 Tatsumi Fujinami & Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Ken Patera & Bobby Duncum

02-13-81 NWF Title: Antonio Inoki d. Ken Patera (taped 2-4)

 

These weren't among the matches compiled by Dan on his Misc NJPW TV Matches from 1974-81 set, which put together what he had from that era in "original TV versions" that didn't air on Classics or get released on commercial tapes / dvds. That set had 77 of the 149 matches that aired on TV, and probably the majority of the remaining 72 (say 40-50) were released on Classics and/or commercial over the years. So those six matches with Patera are among the small number of matches for the year that aren't in circulation... but given how much Dan was original TV that Dan was able to collect for the rest of the year, they're likely out there.

 

Anyway, there's right after Patera's 1980 run in the WWF when he was at his peak. Interesting to see, and singles matches mixed in their with Choshu and Fujinami along with a second match with Inoki (to go with the available one from the prior year).

 

More AWA stuff might come out when/if the WWE launched their network, as well as more 70s WWWF/WWF stuff.

 

I wonder how much if any Mid Atlantic stuff might be in the Library that would cover him. How much 1979 JCP has turned up on WWE media?

 

John

[goodhelmet]

The problem is that Dan's sources have dried up over the years. We will likely never get that type of volume of puro ever again.

[jdw]

I doubt they've dried up forever, nor that it's likely they all pitched their collections. Most likely there was something that happened in Japan (such as a crack down) that spooked a lot of people. We saw a little of that in the US when the WWF did their first round of crack downs... and people just ducked for cover for a while.

 

The collections are still there. They may be doing business underground, or they may just be laying low. The stuff will eventually pop up, and it's quite possible that when it does there will be a flood like we saw here (i.e. a move from Best of type comps to an insane flood of season sets and much bigger comps).

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Bumping this because I am lazily working through a Gordy List on Patera for WON HoF season and I have two questions I need help with. Neither is terrible important BUT

 

Backlund/Patera won MOTY in 1980. Here I just need to confirm that in the first couple of years they were solely Dave picks. I believe I have heard that Dave got some outside input on those early Awards but I'm not positive of it and don't want to include anything questionable like that which could be conceivably nitpicked to death. Also do you think it is fair for me to note that Backlund wasn't exactly a Dave favorite?

 

Second question deals with Patera and the Strongman competitions. This is extremely peripheral, but one of the questions pertains to mainstream exposure due to wrestling fame and because of his participation in those events I don't know how to answer the question. I think it's fair to argue the events themselves were mainstream, but I what I don't know is if it is reasonable to conclude that his wrestling had anything to do with him landing the slot there. I know this doesn't matter much at all, but I'm trying not to be terribly speculative on these sort of things, especially since I have to be at least a little speculative in other areas