What are you watching?

[Ricky Jackson]

I know this is PWO, and it's thirty years later, and if you analyze the booking, and the Toronto match is better, and Steele ruined the finish, blah blah blah... but Steamboat vs Savage is an awesome match and always will be

[Kronos]

Last night before bed, I followed up the March 1988 SNME with the Superstars go home show for Mania 4.

 

Every time I see the British Bulldogs on WWF tv, I can't believe how vicious they are in their squash matches. They really don't give their opponents anything at all. And they look like they are out to genuinely hurt the other guys. Plus, watching Dynamite give two headbutts in a single squash match just makes me sad. Wasting his brain and body that way for a match with zero import. . .

 

Have you ever noticed how Mean Gene yells everything? I can understand why the commentary table speaks loudly - the crowds are hot. But when Gene's in the studio making announcements and such, he's so damn shouty. I guess it's Vince's way of making WWF product exciting and lively compared to the more sedate guys at places like Memphis.

[stro]

I know this is PWO, and it's thirty years later, and if you analyze the booking, and the Toronto match is better, and Steele ruined the finish, blah blah blah... but Steamboat vs Savage is an awesome match and always will be

Has nothing to do with PWO for me, since outside of the booking part, I had the same opinion of this match as a kid as I do now. It's just not particularly entertaining to me and never has been. It actually gets less impressive the more you put it into the context of its era where nearly every major territory and AJ/NJ had been doing "workrate" matches that blow Steamboat/Savage out of the water for years. It's touted as this state of the art match when in fact you can go back a decade and find matches in just Stampede that go harder and are far more athletic and "modern". This isn't even taking into consideration what guys like Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid had been doing for the past 7 years, let alone that Steamboat and Savage THEMSELVES had better matches within weeks/months of this. Or Midnights vs RNR. Or a ton of other shit.

 

When I was a kid and had one of those best of WM comps they put out, Savage/Steamboat would legit put me to sleep 9/10 times.

[Ricky Jackson]

Do you hold all matches to such rigorous contextual standards or just that one?

[stro]

I typically hold matches claimed to be greatest of all time to a higher standard, yes, but as I mentioned it also bored the shit out of me when I was a kid and had no other context besides whatever was going in in the WWF at the time. In context and in a vacuum I don't think it's a particularly impressive match. I never have and I never will, but my opinion of it has certainly gotten even lower with the added context over the years.

 

Macho is my all time favorite or at least in the top 5. I still didn't like the match as a kid.

[PeteF3]

I don't buy the idea that the story of WM3 was Steamboat's "righteous vengeance coming for his pound of flesh." That was the story told in the house show matches like Toronto leading up to WM...matches that Steamboat lost. Here, he was out to get the title, period.

[thebrainfollower]

Yeah I just don't get your argument. Steamboat tried righteous vengeance and failed each time. Here he realized another way to get revenge on Savage which was his pride. Outwrestle him, stay focused and calm and take away the most important thing, his title.

 

Steele's interference makes perfect sense too, capping off a year plus long storyline and adding to the drama of every horrible thing Savage has ever done coming back to bite him in the rear. Plus I think they wanted to give Savage a little bit of an out because even then they were thinking babyface turn. Most of the cage rematches weren't precisely clean wins for Steamboat either, he wasn't cheating but he was getting lucky IIRC.

 

In general also I avoid the workrate comparison with WWF. It has little value when comparing to NJ/AJ, a country with a totally different culture, and more importantly a wrestling schedule of less than half a year which allows matches to be what they are without destroying the body. WWF's brutal travel schedule made that harder to do. Savage-Steamboat DID have matches such as Toronto I can see you liking more definitely though, but I can't help find myself disagreeing with the majority of the argument against Savage-Steamboat here.

[stro]

Hated anything and everything related to George Steele my entire life, too.

[Parties]

Wotan vs. Ultimo Guerrero from recently in San Juan kind of falls into garbage brawling by the end, but the first 2/3rds are wild havoc. Akin to IWA Mid-South in starting off with very good matwork prior to stiff chops, fighting in the seats, chairshots including one that viciously cuts open Wotan, and UG as the old Wahoo vet who the crowd likes seeing massacre a dude. It falls into overkill, but the moments that work have some of the old IWRG magic.

[stro]

It's amazing how WCW fans hated Terry Funk until he got moved down to jokey hardcore stuff with Norman Smiley in 2000. At one point Jeff Jarrett and the Harris Bros got face pops beating him up.

[Kronos]

ESPN 30 for 30: This is the XFL

 

I somehow missed all of this in 2001. I was deep in a phase of being too smart and adult for Wrestling. So I probably blocked it out.

[thebrainfollower]

Watched the November 91 Clash yesterday. Nothing more to add about how great a lot of it is, though I do think Steamboat's dragon disguise was a bit much. Also is it me or does Rick Steiner walk to the ring like he's going to his parents' funeral? I understand the Steiners didn't like doing jobs but surely even Rick didn't think he was walking out of this thing world champion?

 

Also a longer question about Rick Rude. I've always heard he didn't like being paired up with Bobby Heenan in the WWF because he felt Heenan would take all the heat. I've also heard he loved this teaming with Paul Heyman. And yet...........it seems like the angle is all about Heyman. It's the Dangerous Alliance, he does virtually all of the talking and the whole angle leading to the title change is all about him running his mouth and even the camera stays on him while Rude is pretty much a background player. I guess I'm wondering why Rude was okay with this but not being a part of the Heenan family?

[Memphis Mark]

I am watching Starrcade 86. I just finished the Jimmy Garvin vs. Brad Armstrong match and the Dutch Mantell / Bobby Jaggers vs. Uncle Ivan/ Krusher tag match. Next up is the Ric Rude vs. Wahoo strap match. Rude is just starting in the NWA after his Memphis, Florida and World Class runs . Really looking forward to reliving the title run of Rude and the Bull . I love all things 80's NWA.

 

I did take a break from the NWA to watch Super Card of Honor on Ippv. Solid show . ROH is only active promotion that I watch. I tried to watch the relaunch of Impact , but I had to turn it off after about 30 minutes.The feuding announcer angle was just too awful to watch .

[Memphis Mark]

Watched the November 91 Clash yesterday. Nothing more to add about how great a lot of it is, though I do think Steamboat's dragon disguise was a bit much. Also is it me or does Rick Steiner walk to the ring like he's going to his parents' funeral? I understand the Steiners didn't like doing jobs but surely even Rick didn't think he was walking out of this thing world champion?

 

Also a longer question about Rick Rude. I've always heard he didn't like being paired up with Bobby Heenan in the WWF because he felt Heenan would take all the heat. I've also heard he loved this teaming with Paul Heyman. And yet...........it seems like the angle is all about Heyman. It's the Dangerous Alliance, he does virtually all of the talking and the whole angle leading to the title change is all about him running his mouth and even the camera stays on him while Rude is pretty much a background player. I guess I'm wondering why Rude was okay with this but not being a part of the Heenan family?

 

 

Well Ric Rude was the top heel in the Dangerous Alliance. Austin , Anderson and Eaton were his Horsemen. I was never sure why Larry was even in this group. Also Paul Heymen really worked hard to get his guys and the current angle over . over. Not saying Heenan did not get the talent over, but Heymen really was good at building relationships with his guys. Paul may be a con man , but he was a great wrestling manager.

[Blazer]

Steamboat/Savage was built to be Steamboat coming back with his righteous rage and getting his pound of flesh from Randy. Instead, it was 15 minutes of arm drags and sloppy roll ups, both guys got gassed about half way through the match, and it had the horrible finish of Steamboat needing outside interference to win anyway. Even without the context of the feud, it's not a particularly good match, as neither guy has a focus during the match and there's not really anything going on story wise to get attached to. They have plenty of much better matches at MSG/Philly/Boston/Toronto over the years at are easy to find and at least a couple are on the Network.

 

This is trolling, right?

[Blazer]

I don't buy the idea that the story of WM3 was Steamboat's "righteous vengeance coming for his pound of flesh." That was the story told in the house show matches like Toronto leading up to WM...matches that Steamboat lost. Here, he was out to get the title, period.

 

Yes, we've argued about this before. WM3 was about the belt. Possibly his "last shot".

[BruiserBrody]

http://culturecrossfire.com/wrestling/msg122884/

We return to MSG for a historic night of action as the first "Road to Wrestlemania" begins as Roddy Piper storms into a Capt. Lou Albano and Cyndi Lauper ceremony and causes chaos. The Hulkster battles the Iron Sheik, Jack Brisco competes in one of his final matches as the Briscos grapple with Dick Murdoch and Adrian Adonis, Tonga Kid and Superfly Snuka have a wild match with Bob Orton and Roddy Piper, top international junior heavyweights the Cobra and the Black Tiger try and win over the crowd, JYD has some unexpected issues with a jobber and more action!

[BruiserBrody]

http://culturecrossfire.com/wrestling/njpwclassics33/

"New Japan Classics 33" featuring Antonio Inoki facing off with Abdullah the Butcher, the Masked Superstar and Bad News Allen. WWF Junior Heavyweight champion Tatsumi Fujinami collides with NWA Junior Heavyweight champion Les Thornton, plus Tiger Mask clashes with one of Mexico's top luchadores, Roland Boch and more!!

[G. Badger]

10 years too late I bought the WWE Ladder match v. 1, Ricky Steamboat, and Eddie Guerrero - Viva La Raza comps. Psyched on watching those in the next couple weeks.

[Memphis Mark]

Still watching 86 Crockett . Ric Rude and Manny Fernandez just won the tag belts from Morton and Gibson. Barry Windham has returned and team with Ronnie Garvin to beat Ivan and Krusher for the US tag belts. Now the Windham / Garvin vs. Condrey / Eaton feuds begins. Some of the best stuff ever , makes it hard to watch today 's product.

 

Also , Paul Jones has dropped his Adolf Hitler homage in favor of a Liberace look . I wonder if anybody even noticed.

[thebrainfollower]

In my podcast, we referred to that as his 3rd Doctor Who look, but yeah it's more like Liberace. He dressed like that in 84 in Toronto at least too.

[stro]

Watching some of the Misawa/Jumbo feud.

 

 

That shit was rude as hell. I swear I heard poor Kikuchi's jaw break on the lariat. Also I've come to the realization that I definitely prefer Kawada in a secondary role as a tag guy than as a main event singles guy. I'll go even farther and say I prefer Kawada as Misawa's partner than opponent.

[G. Badger]

I recall really enjoying Misawa vs Kawada 10/92 a lot as a competitive top of the class championship bout between teammates.

 

Kawada's victory over Green Jeans was way over due and in retrospect tarnishes his arc 20+ years later :-/ However, Kawada is still Misawa's greatest rival and really beat the ever loving shit out of him even more than Kobashi or Jumbo. This is meaningful since Misawa was near unpinnable.

 

The real heat between the two elevated their encounters, Kawada's little victories transcended records and that's why they are classics of wrestling.

 

Any who...I'm totally digging your point but, after Jumbo got sick they had to put Kawada in there and as awesome as you and I know he was as Misawa's buddy, it was better as rivals..not even for the belt but for deeper reasons.

 

The Misawa & Co. vs Jumbo & Co. feud is amazing! Probably my favorite!!!

[stro]

I would have agreed with everything you said up until like...2-3 years ago. One day I just felt like Kawada wasn't as good as I had originally thought. And now I find myself enjoying him as the spunky second who has next but still gets the shit knocked out of him when he oversteps as opposed to stoic king bad ass dude. That craziest thing about the Misawa vs Jumbo feud is that by the time they had their rematch, Jumbo/Misawa stuff wasn't even the hottest part of the feud any more. Crowds were more into seeing Kawada/Kobashi/Kikuchi maybe score the next big upset, or the seething hatred between Taue and Kawada, or random matches where Taue and Misawa seemingly were trying to kill each other, or Fuchi randomly stomping Kobashi's face in, etc etc.

 

It's why you could have 3000 tag matches in 2 years and about 70% of them didn't feel like they were just running the same match. The seconds and thirds changing roles based on teammates (Kobashi in particular depending if the other guy was Kikuchi or Kawada), random turns where the Misawa side are the complete dicks. It's some wonderful booking. Maybe the single best 2 years of booking in any promotion.

[ohtani's jacket]

If these posts mean anything it's that everyone projects their own interpretation onto Japanese wrestling. To a certain extent, the narratives in wrestling are subjective. You can look at things from different angles and come to different conclusions, but I think it's harder when you're watching a movie without the subtitles so to speak. The reason I say this is because the commentary to the 5/98 Misawa vs. Kawada was incredible to listen to. Plenty of folks have dissected that feud over the years and argued that Kawada should have won in '94, etc., and maybe they're right, but there is nothing stoic about the emotion in the matches. I'm not talking about "Kawada WIIIIIINS!" bullshit either. I mean the fact that they clearly draw on how Kawada hadn't been able to beat Misawa in wrestling since they were in high school. It's not about Kawada shifting from tag partner to rival after Jumbo's hepatitis. It's about the relationship between kohai and senpai. Some of it was real and some of it was manufactured but it was far from stoic.

 

For what it's worth, poor commentary hurts the Steamboat vs. Savage WM match. Gorilla and Jesse had no idea what Steamboat and Savage were shooting for and don't give a great call. I remember reading about the houseshow feud on a random Angelfire site and suddenly getting what they were aiming for at WM3 while the doubting Thomases of the world wouldn't believe me until the houseshow matches surfaced.