The JTTS

[goodhelmet]

OK, I am going to take this show from Feb. 1987 which looks pretty loaded but has no Hogan or Andre, who would main event Mania in a couple of weeks from here...

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 23, 1987 (18,317)

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary:

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Paul Roma pinned Salvatore Bellomo at 12:23 with a powerslam

Prime Time Wrestling - 4/6/87: Demolition defeated the Islanders at 9:13 when Ax pinned Tama following the Decapitation behind the referee's back after Smash hit a clothesline on Tama (Best of the WWF Vol. 13)

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Koko B. Ware pinned Sika at 4:51 with a roll up following a dropkick to the back after sliding under the ring and coming out the other end; after the bout, Sika attacked Koko and threw him out of the ring

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Tito Santana fought Butch Reed (w/ Slick) to a double disqualification at 12:10 when, as Slick attempted to interfere with his cane, Koko B. Ware came out and knocked Slick out of the ring; after the bout, Santana and Koko cleared the ring

WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart & Danny Davis) defeated B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell at 13:52 when Bret reversed a slam by Brunzell into a small package after Davis attacked Brunzell from behind; during the match, Jimmy Hart briefly joined the commentary team at ringside (The Hart Foundation)

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Outback Jack pinned Barry O with a bulldog at 3:33

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Jake Roberts defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out at 9:17 when Bundy pushed Roberts back inside the ring following a ringside brawl; after the bout, Bundy missed the Avalanche in the corner with Roberts then chasing Bundy, Heenan, and Jimmy Hart - who did guest commentary for the bout - backstage with Damien (Jake "The Snake" Roberts)

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: The Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Pedro Morales at 11:58 with his feet on the ropes; Slick did guest commentary for the bout, subbing for Bobby Heenan

Roddy Piper, the Junkyard Dog, & Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage, Adrian Adonis, & King Harley Race in an elimination match at 20:22 when Piper pinned Savage with an inside cradle after Savage missed his flying elbowdrop; Adonis and JYD fought to a double count-out at 7:50; Race pinned Steamboat at 11:42 after Savage interfered behind the referee's back and reversed Steamboat's inside cradle; Piper pinned Race at 15:43 after Savage accidentally hit his partner with a double axe handle; prior to the bout, Jimmy Hart, Miss Elizabeth, and Bobby Heenan left ringside; after the bout, Gorilla Monsoon interviewed Piper backstage (Piper's last appearance at MSG for 2 1/2 years) (Best of the WWF Vol. 11, WWE's Top 50 Superstars of All Time)

 

Guys that were capable of good/great matches in other feds or territories and maybe even the WWF include... Demolition (is this pre-Darsow? If so, even better), Islanders, Koko B Ware, Tito Santana, Butch Reed, Harts, Bees, Jake Roberts, Bundy, Honky, Pedro, Piper, JYD, Steamboat, Savage, Adonis and Race. Some of these guys may be past their prime (Pedro) but if booked right, could probably still be relevant. I am not saying that 1987 JYD could have a good match but he was still a player at the time.

 

 

Guys in the fed who wrestled for WWF that week but not on this show who could be pushed in a compelling gimmick or feud if the WWF was behind them even if the matches were weak... Dan Spivey, Lanny Poffo, The Rougeaus, Martel & Zenk, Muraco (I think he sucks), Orndorff, Hillbilly Jim, Blackjack Mulligan was still wrestling?, Beefcake and Valentine, Kamala, Hercules, Billy Jack Haynes, Moondog Spot (Latham was great as late as 1992), George Steele, Hacksaw Duggan, Iron Sheik, Dick Slater. Plus, you had Andre and Hogan about to headline Mania.

 

 

 

Now, here is a show from Crockett the same week in Philadelphia fucking PA...

 

JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - February 21, 1987 (7,216)

Bob Armstrong defeated Gary Royal

Arn Anderson defeated Ricky Lee Jones

Lex Luger defeated Eddie Roberts

NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard defeated Tim Horner

Wahoo McDaniel & Jimmy Garvin defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey

Dusty Rhodes & NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff defeated Ivan Koloff & Vladimir Pietrov

NWA Tag Team Champions Rick Rude & Manny Fernandez defeated Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Barry Windham at the 20-minute mark

 

These are some guys I would pay money to see or were pushed in Crockett at the time... Bob Armstrong (fuck yeah), Arn, Luger, Tully, Horner, Wahoo, Jimmy Garvin (about to get World Title program), MX, Dusty, Nikita, Russians, RNR, RNR, Flair, Windham

 

 

So these are guys that week who did not appear on this show... Barbarian, Jimmy Valiant, Bill Dundee, Hector Guerrero, Dutch Mantel, Dick Murdoch, Brad Armstrong, Ole Anderson, Baron Von Raschke, Big Bubba, Ron Garvin, Watley. Fuck, where is Bobby Jaggers? He didn't wrestle that week I guess.

 

 

I think I was generous to both companies in the comparison. The point is that Crockett had more feuds I cared about in this era than WWF even though WWF had a deep roster of guys they could have made me care about if they were intent on making me care about them. What if WWF used Moondog Spot the way Memphis used him in 1992? Duggan, Haynes, Slater, Martel, Valentine, Reed, Orndorff... all guys who were trusted to run main events all over the territories and could still be pushed into compelling feuds. WWF had a deep roster. I think Jerry was correct there. It was the booking and character presentation that was dogshit.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing more: I also think that the general idea -- very popular on this board -- that WWF's 80s success was just everyone riding on Hogan's coattails and the rest of the roster were just kinda there is basically wrong.

 

You only need to see how much name recognition the rest of that roster still have to this day to see that. You only need to see how over the rest of the roster was to see that.

 

Possibly it was that way in 85 and 86, but Vince is too clever to put all his eggs in one basket. He diversified his assets and made many many different stars, of which Hogan was only the brightest. I think the reading that says it's still just Hogan in 88, 89, 90, 91 is overly reductive.

 

If that is to reject the consensus view on this board, then I reject it.

 

It would also be great if whoever responds to this post could note the dates and years I'm mentioning and not reply with a list of cards from 1986 featuring George Wells.

[Dylan Waco]

There is no serious question that Hogan was the ace and that he was the person positioned to draw above and beyond everyone else.

 

One could argue that someone like Savage was eventually elevated to a slot of great value, but he was still not Hogan. Warrior bombed for a reason

[JerryvonKramer]

Hogan was the foundation, the root, the major building block, sure. And yes the biggest draw and the ace.

 

That doesn't mean Vince didn't create some flowers and add other building blocks and develop that foundation into something that might not be so dependent on Hogan.

 

Sure, Vince makes mistakes (Warrior) and has moments of weakness (Mania 9), but there was a clear strategy on his part to make the promotion much less dependent on Hogan and Hogan only from 88 onwards.

[Loss]

People remember The Godfather, Val Venis and the New Age Outlaws too. They were all "stars" to an extent, but they were stars because their runs happened to coincide with the peak of Steve Austin. They weren't a key part of the WWF's success at the time. But they had effective gimmicks, did a few memorable angles and are associated with a time when wrestling was cool. 80s WWF has tons of Val Venises and Godfathers.

[JerryvonKramer]

So what you're saying is that 88, 89, 90 and 91 is basically the same scenario as 85 and 86? I'm not sure if I buy that.

 

WWF had feuds up and down the card for most of that time. Some of those feuds were pretty hot too. The booking in general is sensational for most of that time, up and down the card.

 

Hogan's "Austin" run is 84-7. Are you arguing that it was actually 84-91? That all of that is WWF just milking one cash cow?

 

I think that's reductive and missing a few things that are blindingly obvious. And I think it's selling both the booking and the rest of roster short by some distance.

 

EDIT: To bring it back to the sports analogy, if in 85 it's one big star way way above everyone else, I think by 88-91 it's one big star, still clearly the biggest star, but he's in an all-star team now.

[Exposer]

People remember The Godfather, Val Venis and the New Age Outlaws too. They were all "stars" to an extent, but they were stars because their runs happened to coincide with the peak of Steve Austin. They weren't a key part of the WWF's success at the time. But they had effective gimmicks, did a few memorable angles and are associated with a time when wrestling was cool. 80s WWF has tons of Val Venises and Godfathers.

I agree. Rick Rude (Val Venis is a poor man's version) and maybe Koko B. Ware as a comparison for Godfather? Yeah, the 80s definitely had their Val Venises and Godfather's. I like Rick Rude and find Koko entertaining but they were helped a good bit by the time period.

[JerryvonKramer]

One more thing ...

 

People remember The Godfather, Val Venis and the New Age Outlaws too. They were all "stars" to an extent, but they were stars because their runs happened to coincide with the peak of Steve Austin. They weren't a key part of the WWF's success at the time. But they had effective gimmicks, did a few memorable angles and are associated with a time when wrestling was cool. 80s WWF has tons of Val Venises and Godfathers.

What so in the same thread I'm told Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones was something people really gave a shit about I'm also meant to write off the New Age Outlaws?

 

Actually fuck the New Age Outlaws, I'm meant to write off every major 80s WWF star not called Hogan or Savage as being worth nothing to their promotion?

 

I don't see how this logic is meant to work. I think you are talking about a phase of WWF (84-87) which evolved into something else (88-92ish) before the slump, steroids and all the rest of it.

[Loss]

I'm not sure I understand the divide. The faces changed during those years, but the story seemed to be the same. Yes, the WWF attempted to move on from Hogan a few times, but they always came back to him.

[JerryvonKramer]

The divide Loss is that from 88 onwards, they had what we in this thread have called "meaningful depth". That means they not only had Hogan on top but well-booked feuds at every tier: main event, upper midcard, IC, tag team, lower card.

 

That's what this thread has been talking about right? Meaningful feuds? Using the talent on the roster to do things fans care about?

 

I think there is a very clear point when Vince and co dropped all the jobbery shite you saw at Mania II and dropped, in the main, "meaningless" Muraco vs. Orndorff type matches and had every match at most of his PPVs built by feuds.

 

This starts to happen in 88. By 90, 91, 92 they had it down to a fine art.

 

The dividing line is not arbitrary, it's a change of booking patterns and a slight change in emphasis. They were giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2.

[jdw]

You keep pushing the line backwards as people drop cards on you. One of the more recent lines in the sand was 1988, so let's look at three cards of each promotion in Los Angeles in early 1988. We can't go beyond this in a direct comp in LA as JCP didn't come back until the Bash card.

 

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 15, 1988 (10,000)

Dino Bravo pinned Jerry Allen

Koko B. Ware pinned Iron Mike Sharpe

Jake Roberts defeated Rick Rude via count-out

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors

Greg Valentine pinned Brutus Beefcake

WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri pinned Velvet McIntyre

Ron Bass pinned Brady Boone

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage in a steel cage match

 

The first two matches were throw aways.

 

In early 1988, Rude was done with his long Orndorff feud and waiting for the next one to load. Jake was bouncing around facing various people like Ted and OMG and Herc. The Rude-Jake-Wife angle wasn't shot until March 19, not airing until 4/23/88. The two did face each other a fair amount prior to the Big Angle, but it comes across as more "thrown together" and "let's see if this works" than a focused feud yet.

 

The Bulldogs match is a throw away. No one cared about the women's match. The Bass match is a throw away.

 

So you effectively have a two match card: the tag title and the IC title.

 

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - January 21, 1988 (3,000)

Kevin Sullivan defeated the Hurricane Kid

NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Samoan Tau

NWA TV Champion Nikita Koloff fought NWA Tag Team Champion Tully Blanchard to a draw

The Road Warriors fought the Powers of Pain to a no contest

Lex Luger defeated NWA Tag Team Champion Arn Anderson

NWA US Champion Dusty Rhodes defeated Larry Zbyzsko via disqualification

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Michael Hayes

 

Sullivan's match is a throw away. Barry's match is a throw away.

 

Nikita vs Tully is a bit "throw together", but Nikita had won the TV Title from Tully back in August, and had a track record against Tully as part of the Flair-Nikita + Dusty-Tully feuds in late 1986 / early 1987 where they tag together a lot. So it would have some back story to it.

 

LOD vs Powers was a big feud with the weights angle around here.

 

Dusty vs Larry was Dusty's storyline post-Luger, with Larry have "pictures" of Dusty doing... something.

 

Flair-Hayes was one of Flair's post Starcade/Garvin feuds prior to Sting becoming the focused one. You'll find segements on the TV shows of him talking up Hayes, and not just localized promos. Was it one of his big ones? No. It was more like the Brad Armstrong the year before that was run after Flair-Barry ran it's course and the next feud (Flair vs Jimmy Garvin leading into Flair vs Ronnie) got fired up. Flair-Brad was talked about on TV with Brad built up, so it was a known storyline... just not one that got invested with a massive angle. Flair-Garvin in 1986, Flair-Brad in 1987, Flair-Hayes in late 1987 / early 1988... Flair tended to have a number of second level feuds that could be used between major feuds or where a major feud ran it's course in a town and they hadn't yet rolled out the angle for the next major feud. Anyway, folks going to that card know what Flair-Hayes was about.

 

It's worth noting that JCP was running a split crew that day, so we didn't get folks like the MX or Dusty or the R'nR. This is similar to how the WWF ran.

 

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - February 17, 1988

Ricky Santana defeated the Hurricane Kid

Dick Murdoch defeated Billy Anderson

NWA Tag Team Champion Arn Anderson defeated Tim Patterson

NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane fought Sting & Jimmy Garvin to a 30-minute time-limit draw

Road Warrior Hawk & Paul Ellering defeated the Powers of Pain in a ladder match

NWA US Champion Dusty Rhodes defeated NWA Western States Heritage Champion Larry Zbyzsko

Lex Luger & Barry Windham defeated NWA World Champion Ric Flair & NWA Tag Team Champion Tully Blanchard via disqualification

 

The first three matches were throw aways.

 

The US Tag Title match is thrown together, but... MX vs Jimmy Garvin had history going back to early 1987.

 

LOD vs Powers of Pain was a big feud for the Warriors. Animal was out due to the weights angle.

 

Dusty still feuding with Larry.

 

The main event was all about the Horsemen turning on Lex, which was the big angle to close 1987 and lead into 1988. They wanted to slow burn getting to Lex-Flair, saving it for the Bash and the post-Bash, so if you check the cards you'll see them slide Lex opposite other Horsemen, while Sting was pushed opposite Flair. The other aspect of this was that Barry was the first face to join hands with former heel Lex, and they aimed at the WTT... and there's Tully in the match. There's layers to the storyline here.

 

Anyway, basically the top three matches have focused storyline, while the USTT match has "going to the well" storyline.

 

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - March 6, 1988 (4,000)

Brady defeated Jack Armstrong

Ricky Steamboat fought Rick Rude to a draw

Ken Patera defeated Hercules via disqualification

WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin

Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers

Bad News Brown defeated Scott Casey

Koko B. Ware defeated Johnny V

Hulk Hogan & Jim Duggan defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil

 

Curtain jerker to open.

 

Rude and Steamer had something going on off the Rumble and a syndication match.

 

The Patera match was slapped together: had was coming off the Demolition feud (with Billy Jack), and this was just before the Bravo one started.

 

Women? I guess people know what this was since it was the only woman's match in the WWF at the time.

 

Roma & Powers against the Russians was a throw away like a lot of Roma & Powers matches at this point. The faced the Russians a number of times in here, but also faced a lot of other teams.

 

Casey was a JTTS, and was just dialed up here for Allen. Koko vs Johnny V was a throw away.

 

Hogan vs Ted was the main event storyline.

 

This is a very thin card in terms of storyline. Frankly light in terms of star power as well beyond the main event.

 

 

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - March 17, 1988

Mando Guerrero fought Tony Rocco to a 10-minute time-limit draw

Rick Steiner pinned Pistol Pete

Larry Zbyzsko pinned Ron Garvin

NWA TV Champion Mike Rotundo fought Jimmy Garvin to a 30-minute time-limit draw

Lex Luger & Barry Windham defeated NWA Tag Team Champions Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard via disqualification

The Road Warriors defeated the Powers of Pain in a lumberjack match

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Sting

 

First two matches are curtain jerkers. Larry-Garvin is just two people that Dusty hasn't figure out what to do next with.

 

Rotundo vs Garvin was part of the heated up Garvin vs Sullivan storyline.

 

Here's Lex opposite of the Horsemen, again with Barry at his side, and the two zeroing in on the WTT they would win this month.

 

LOD vs POP again.

 

And the Flair vs Sting feud heating up. In a sense, the top three matches are previews for the coming Clash, while Rotundo-Garvin plays into the Gravin-Sully match at the Clash.

 

So...

 

There really isn't a difference in "depth" on the cards, even with JCP starting to run more splitcards in Los Angeles rather than the loaded up ones we got in say August 1986 or hot off Starcade 1986. The JCP cards tended to have more focus on current storylines, even with clear prelim matches and several slapped together one.

 

I'm surprised by the lack of focus on the WWF cards in Los Angeles... I don't recall them being this thin in terms of storyline. I suspect that once we get to the WWF cutting back to generally just two crews that things will tighten up, but that doesn't happen until 1990.

[jdw]

Alright... let's just wrap the Hogan Era by taking the first LA Sports Arena card of each year from 1989-92. I'll invited Jerry to explain:

 

WWF had feuds up and down the card for most of that time. Some of those feuds were pretty hot too. The booking in general is sensational for most of that time, up and down the card.

So...

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 29, 1989 (8,500)

Televised on Z Channel - featured Rod Trongard & Superstar Billy Graham on commentary:

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: Sam Houston pinned Barry Horowitz with a bulldog at 18:15

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: Rick Rude pinned Brutus Beefcake at 8:16 by blocking a sunset flip into the ring and holding onto the top rope for leverage

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned King Haku with a suplex and splash at 7:15 (The Ultimate Warrior)

Andre the Giant defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification at 7:31 when Roberts brought Damien into the ring

WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition fought the Powers of Pain (w/ Mr. Fuji) to a double disqualification at 6:01 when referee Joey Marella caught Fuji in the ring trying to hit Smash with his cane, with Ax then using the cane as a weapon; after the bout, the champions cleared the challengers from the ring (WWF Strong Men)

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: The Red Rooster defeated Danny Davis via submission at 6:47 with a hammerlock as Davis was on his back

Greg Valentine pinned Jim Neidhart at 10:11 with a roll up

Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty at 18:21 when Blanchard pinned Jannetty after Anderson swept Jannetty's leg out from the floor as he attempted a suplex and then held the boot down during the cover

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 26, 1990 (12,000)

Earthquake defeated the Red Rooster

Koko B. Ware pinned Black Bart

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo

Ron Garvin defeated the Brooklyn Brawler

WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via count-out

Roddy Piper defeated Rick Rude in a steel cage match

 

We'll need to skip the first Sports Arena card of 1991 since it was Mania, so chose your card among these two in the area:

 

WWF @ Long Beach, CA - January 5, 1991 (9,600)

The Barbarian pinned Jim Brunzell

The Big Bossman pinned Bobby Heenan

Sgt. Slaughter pinned Jim Duggan

Demolition defeated the Bushwhackers

Saba Simba pinned Buddy Rose

Roddy Piper defeated WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect via count-out

WWF World Champion the Ultimate Warrior defeated Randy Savage

 

Or:

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - May 4, 1991 (15,000)

Jim Brunzell vs. IRS

Tugboat vs. the Warlord

Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty vs. the Orient Express

The Big Bossman vs. the Mountie

The Legion of Doom vs. WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys

Roddy Piper vs. Ted Dibiase

The Ultimate Warrior vs. the Undertaker

 

I actually think we're getting far close in those what I mentioned earlier: the WWF tightened up their cards after cutting back the number of crews and cards they ran, which was in late 1990 (timed around the Harts vs Rockers "title change").

 

1992:

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - February 8, 1992 (5,600)

The Warlord pinned Chris Walker

Shawn Michaels pinned Jimmy Snuka

The Big Bossman & Tito Santana defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS; Dibiase & IRS were not recognized as champions for the match

The Mountie pinned Jim Brunzell

Repo Man pinned Virgil

The Legion of Doom defeated the Natural Disasters; the LOD came out with the WWF Tag Team Titles and were recognized as champions despite losing the titles the previous night

WWF World Champion Ric Flair defeated WWF IC Champion Roddy Piper via disqualification

 

Yep... I don't think WWF cards in the Expansion Era of 1980s went down like you seem to be thinking they did. The change game later when they actually reduced the size of the roster, the number of cards they ran, and the number of times they hit cities. Each of these things happened gradually over time, starting in roughly 1990.

 

John

[jdw]

EDIT: To bring it back to the sports analogy, if in 85 it's one big star way way above everyone else, I think by 88-91 it's one big star, still clearly the biggest star, but he's in an all-star team now.

Let's check that one out with the 1988 card I listed:

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - March 6, 1988 (4,000)

Brady defeated Jack Armstrong

Ricky Steamboat fought Rick Rude to a draw

Ken Patera defeated Hercules via disqualification

WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin

Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers

Bad News Brown defeated Scott Casey

Koko B. Ware defeated Johnny V

Hulk Hogan & Jim Duggan defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil

 

Basically a two match card, with one listed as second on the card. Even then... Rude wasn't close to as big of a star in the WWF as he would get. In turn, despite being less than a year removed from the IC Title, Steamer was a guy that the WWF really didn't know what to do with because his commitment to full time work was limited. This kind of was his door back in, but it went nowhere and he left. So the "all-star" part of that match was in the past for one of the workers and in the future for the other (since the Jake angle and feud is really what started Rude's rise in the WWF).

 

I don't think we'll find a lot different in 1989 looking at Hogan Cards in Los Angeles.

 

John

[jdw]

The divide Loss is that from 88 onwards, they had what we in this thread have called "meaningful depth". That means they not only had Hogan on top but well-booked feuds at every tier: main event, upper midcard, IC, tag team, lower card.

 

Well, that appears to not be the case when looking at *cards*. To the degree that I wonder if you even bother to check it before writing it. :/

 

Did the WWF have 10 to 15 to 20 "storylines" going on at one time? I suspect that if we chart out the entire year of 1988, we'll find points of overlap where they have quite a few going on.

 

What people are trying to tell you is the JCP also did in 1986, 1987, 1988, etc. If you go back to my earlier long post breaking down JCP at the time of the 1986 Bash, you'll find that they had a *ton* going on at that time.

 

Flair alone was juggling multiple challengers through those big cards.

 

The R'nR were feuding with both the MX and the Andersons, while Ricky remained an occasional challenger to Flair off their feud in the Spring.

 

The MX were feuding with both the R'nR and Dusty & Maggie, with Baby Doll thrown in. They even had a side issue with the Road Warriors for the NWA WTT.

 

The Roadies had a feud with the Russians and the Horsemen, and that side one with the MX.

 

Nikita had his feud with Maggie, but also was drawn into the long Roadies vs Russians feud.

 

I'm willing to bet that if we just focus on that one series that lasted little over a month, we'd find close to 20 different storylines that would be known to all of the fans who might go to shows. A lot of those 20 would have been given significant build on TV... even something that people think is as silly as Boogie vs Paul Jones' Army.

 

John

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

The non-Hogan part of the WWF roster was like a modern-day NFL pregame show. Lots of over-the-top zaniness to occupy time before the game starts. Every now and then you get something meaningful, but it's mostly a train wreck.

 

You could literally replace everyone on set during the middle of an NFL pregame show and nobody would give a shit as long as the game started on time. Ditto for the non-Hogan WWF roster during the years being discussed as long as the Hulkster came out and did his thing.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, give me one good reason to respond to those posts when, as far as I can see, you've made no real attempt to engage with the argument I actually made.

[JerryvonKramer]

The divide Loss is that from 88 onwards, they had what we in this thread have called "meaningful depth". That means they not only had Hogan on top but well-booked feuds at every tier: main event, upper midcard, IC, tag team, lower card.

 

Well, that appears to not be the case when looking at *cards*. To the degree that I wonder if you even bother to check it before writing it. :/

 

Did the WWF have 10 to 15 to 20 "storylines" going on at one time? I suspect that if we chart out the entire year of 1988, we'll find points of overlap where they have quite a few going on.

 

What people are trying to tell you is the JCP also did in 1986, 1987, 1988, etc. If you go back to my earlier long post breaking down JCP at the time of the 1986 Bash, you'll find that they had a *ton* going on at that time.

 

Flair alone was juggling multiple challengers through those big cards.

 

The R'nR were feuding with both the MX and the Andersons, while Ricky remained an occasional challenger to Flair off their feud in the Spring.

 

The MX were feuding with both the R'nR and Dusty & Maggie, with Baby Doll thrown in. They even had a side issue with the Road Warriors for the NWA WTT.

 

The Roadies had a feud with the Russians and the Horsemen, and that side one with the MX.

 

Nikita had his feud with Maggie, but also was drawn into the long Roadies vs Russians feud.

 

I'm willing to bet that if we just focus on that one series that lasted little over a month, we'd find close to 20 different storylines that would be known to all of the fans who might go to shows. A lot of those 20 would have been given significant build on TV... even something that people think is as silly as Boogie vs Paul Jones' Army.

 

John

 

Do you really want me to list all the legion non-Hogan related feuds that took place from 88 to 92? It would make an impressive visual because there are a lot of them.

 

Really though, is it worth the effort of listing all those fueds? Will anything happen other than you quoting random or handpicked LA cards back at me and sticking to a rather dogmatic line that WWF was Hogan and nothing else and that's the way things were from 84 to 92? I don't want to take an hour of my time typing out dozens of feuds only for them to be ignored.

 

The point is that -- using the very terms set out by this thread -- WWF DID have meaningful stuff going on lower down the card. And quite a lot of it.

 

For JCP, that stuff matters, it's meant to show how well booked the promotion was, how they did more with less etc.

 

For WWF, it's just Hogan pre-show.

 

That's the argument I'm getting from you guys now and it's not adding up. One rule for JCP, another for WWF.

[Dylan Waco]

Who is arguing one rule for JCP and one rule for WWF? Where can that be found in this thread?

[JerryvonKramer]

If you follow the logic through, that is what is happening when we get to 88, 89, 90, 91, 92.

 

It is an implied by the argument being made.

 

You're asking me on the one hand to give credit to JCP for its non-main event feuds, while asking me to ignore the dozens upon dozens of non-Hogan feuds that went on in WWF between 88 and 92.

 

I haven't seen a single person yet even admit there was a change in the booking from the 84-6 period, let alone that WWF had meaningful feuds up and down the card in 88-92. Disappointing to see this level of dogma at play.

[Dylan Waco]

I think you need to look back at the thread.

 

I said earlier that I thought up until 86 or so when the national consolidation was basically complete and every none JCP alternative had been crushed, you could point to other guys and feuds that were relevant in meaningful ways as drawing cards. Valentine v. Tito and Andre and friend v. Studd/Patera are two obvious examples I can think of off the top of my head. You can also point to guys with local reps being brought in to help boost towns, often in places where Hogan wasn't getting it done on his own.

 

Before the end of 86 I'm not so sure that was the case. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot tougher to see and a lot of the cards seem to look like they are filled with "stuff." You can claim John is cherrypicking cards, but he's really not - he's looking at what they were offering in LA which was and is the second biggest market in the country. It's possible you would find other things in different towns, but I'm not sure how different things would be.

 

The point is not that the WWF didn't have storylines. The point is not that there booking stayed exactly the same from 84-92 with no real variation. The point is that on the average card Crockett was more likely to have multiple matches with hot storylines, feuds, meaning, et. than was the average WWF card. It is entirely possible that this changes around 90 as John said, maybe a little earlier, maybe a little later. It is also true that as a kid I perceived Savage as being elevated into upper tier status with Hogan in 88. But none of that changes the broader point

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's the story John's LA cards aren't telling you:

 

WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988

Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones

Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors

WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin

WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart

The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification

Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy

Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan

Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification

 

No Hogan. DiBiase being pushed. Honkey during long IC run drawing heat in meaningful feud with recently turned Savage. Think Strike Force / Hart Foundation was a feud.

 

WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - January 2, 1988

Lanny Poffo pinned Barry Horowitz at 12:45

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated the Conquistadors at 12:23 when Blair scored the pin with a roll up after a dropkick from Brunzell

Jim Duggan fought Rick Rude to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Duggan has Rude covered

Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana via disqualification when Santana hit Bret with Jimmy Hart's megaphone

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the One Man Gang at 12:16 after a slam and the legdrop

The Jumping Bomb Angels defeated WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri & Rockin' Robin at 13:58 when Robin was pinned after a double clothesline

Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4

WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification at 6:16 after Savage rammed Honky and Jimmy Hart's heads together

 

With Hogan this time. Beefcake / Valentine former tag partners. Savage/Honky again. Strike Force / Hart Foundation.

 

WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - January 2, 1988

Dino Bravo pinned SD Jones

Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis via disqualification

Ken Patera & Billy Jack Haynes defeated Demolition via disqualification

Don Muraco pinned Butch Reed

The Islanders defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers

Ted Dibiase pinned Jake Roberts

Hercules fought Koko B. Ware to a draw

Bam Bam Bigelow pinned King Kong Bundy

 

Same night, different town. Bam Bam and DiBiase both being pushed here. Ted/Jake was a match with two characters people cared about who were both over. No Hogan.

 

WWF @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - January 3, 1988

Koko B. Ware vs. Steve Lombardi

Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. the Islanders

The Jumping Bomb Angels vs. WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai

Jake Roberts vs. Ted Dibiase

 

Jake vs. Ted on top here. Jumping Bomb Angels were fueding with Martin and Kai. Young Stallions vs. Islanders is not a bad lower card match. No Hogan.

 

WWF @ Springfield, MA - Civic Center - January 3, 1988 (1,900)

SD Jones pinned Steve Lombardi

Ron Bass pinned the Junkyard Dog

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov

Danny Davis pinned Sam Houston

The One Man Gang pinned Jake Roberts

Butch Reed pinned Don Muraco after hitting him with a foreign object

Demolition defeated Jacques & Raymond Rougeau

Ted Dibiase fought Bam Bam Bigelow to a double disqualification

Jim Duggan pinned Hercules

 

Same night, guessing the Poughkeepsie show was a matinee. Duggan was being pushed here and would face Herc a few times over this period before and after the Royal Rumble win. DiBiase vs. Bam Bam is a strongish match as both are being pushed. Demolition vs. Rougeaus and Jake vs. OMG -- not bad at all if even there aren't any explicit feuds there. These aren't "meaningless" they are building momentum for those going over so that when they eventually meet at a big show or in title matches, it means something. Same is true of Bulldogs vs. Bolsheviks, momentum.

 

Kinda shocked to see Ron Bass pinning JYD in early 88, but there we go. No Hogan.

 

 

WWF @ Montrael, Quebec - Forum - January 4, 1988

Sam Houston pinned Danny Davis

WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels

Jim Duggan defeated King Harley Race

Koko B. Ware defeated Gino Brito Jr.

Dino Bravo defeated Don Muraco

Demolition defeated Billy Jack Haynes & Ken Patera

Ted Dibiase defeated Jake Roberts

WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification

Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated the Islanders

 

No Hogan. Up in Canada now, Rougeaus the local boys going over Islanders is perfectly logical on top. More wins for Demolition. Duggan and Race started a feud around this time. Ted vs. Jake - hot heel vs. hot face. Honky / Savage feud again. Bravo going over Muraco giving the locals something else to cheer about mid-way through the card. Bomb Angels vs. Martin/Kai feud.

 

DiBiase and Roberts must have been fucking knackered going to bed on January 4th!

 

WWF @ Augusta, GA - Civic Center - January 4, 1988

Brady Boone defeated Iron Mike Sharpe

WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors

Butch Reed defeated George Steele

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine with a roll up

Bam Bam Bigelow defeated the One Man Gang

Rick Rude defeated Paul Orndorff

 

Same night, different town and down in Crockett country no less. Another win for Bulldogs. Can we say Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation was a feud? Beefcake / Valentine again. Bam Bam - pushed face vs. OMG - semi-pushed heel.

 

Rude vs. Orndorff not the strongest main event for early 88, but Orndorff had historical issues with Heenan -- for a "B" show this is not a bad card at all is it?

 

WWF @ Staten Island, NY - Monsignor Farrell High School - January 4, 1988

Dan Spivey pinned Scott Casey

Sika pinned Lanny Poffo

Ron Bass defeated Outback Jack

The Ultimate Warrior defeated Steve Lombardi

Hercules defeated the Junkyard Dog

Paul Roma & Jim Powers defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov via disqualification

 

THIRD card on the same night now. Momentum for Warrior, Bass, Herc and the Young Stallions. Obviously this is a "C" show.

 

I'll skip the TV mega-tapings.

 

WWF @ Wildwood, NJ - Convention Hall - January 9, 1988

Outback Jack vs. George Skaaland

David Sammartino vs. Johnny V

Scott Casey vs. Danny Spivey

Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. Barry Horowitz & Steve Lombardi

The Junkyard Dog vs. Hercules

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell vs. Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov

 

"C" show fodder, but they still ran it.

 

WWF @ Allentown, PA - Agricultural Hall - January 9, 1988 (matinee)

Postponned from Jan. 7 due to inclement weather in Atlanta and Nashville

Included the Junkyard Dog, Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid, a women's tag team match, and a 20-man battle royal

 

Another show.

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 9, 1988 (matinee) (10,083)

Televised on the PRISM Network - included Dick Graham & Craig DeGeorge on commentary

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/19/88: Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) pinned SD Jones with the side suplex at 8:19

The Ultimate Warrior (sub. for Paul Orndorff) fought Rick Rude to a double count-out at 16:25 when both men began brawling on the floor

Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Brutus Beefcake at 11:06 when Hart grabbed Beefcake's leg as he attempted to suplex Valentine into the ring, with Valentine falling on top and Hart holding the leg down during the cover

WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Lelani Kai (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels at 15:34 when Martin pinned Noriyo Tateno with a front suplex

WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) in a steel cage match at 9:13 by escaping out the door as Hart helped pull him out; after the match, Savage brought the champion and Hart back inside the cage and hit the flying elbowsmash on Honky

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors at 8:07 when Dynamite scored the pin with a diving headbutt after being thrown by Smith

Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) pinned Jake Roberts at 8:33 with a roll up and grabbing the tights for leverage following a knee to the back as Roberts was distracted by Virgil on the floor; after the match, Roberts attacked Dibiase and attempted to throw Damien on him after Dibiase became tied in the ring ropes; moments later, Virgil came up behind Roberts and Roberts threw Damien on him instead

WWF Tag Team Champions Tito Santana & Rick Martel defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification at 11:01 after Bret hit Martel with Jimmy's megaphone as Martel had the Boston Crab applied on Neidhart

 

Same day, ANOTHER show. Warrior's build continues. Valentine / Beefcake. Bomb Angels vs. Martin and Kai. Honky / Savage. Another win for Bulldogs. Ted/Jake again. Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation again.

 

WWF @ Scranton, PA - CYC - January 9, 1988

Included Randy Savage and Demolition

 

Same day, different town (A FOURTH TOWN), different people on top.

 

WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - January 9, 1988 (13,903)

Televised on NESN - included Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary:

Iron Mike Sharpe pinned SD Jones at 8:22 after hitting him in the head with his forearm support

Prime Time Wrestling - 1/18/88: Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) pinned Jerry Allen at 3:36 with the side suplex; early in the bout, Bobby Heenan left the broadcast table and went backstage after Gorilla Monsoon questioned him about the whereabouts of Matilda

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors when Dynamite scored the pin at 13:55 after the press slam / diving headbutt combo; before the bout, Bobby Heenan left ringside after being threatened by the Bulldogs

Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) pinned Jake Roberts with a roll up and holding the tights for leverage at 10:58 after Roberts attacked an interfering Virgil; after the bout, Dibiase became caught in the ropes and Roberts was about to put Damien on him before Virgil pulled Dibiase from the ring; prior to the bout, Bobby Heenan returned to the commentary table

WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated the Jumping Bomb Angels at 10:56 when Kai scored the pin following a front suplex from Martin behind the referee's back

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Rick Rude (w/ Bobby Heenan) with the legdrop at 11:40 after Rude thought he had won the match with the backbreaker submission hold; after the bout, the champion was attacked and bloodied by Ted Dibiase; Jimmy Hart provided commentary for the bout alongside Gorilla Monsoon (Best of the WWF Vol. 20, Hulk Hogan: The Unreleased Archives)

Greg Valentine defeated Brutus Beefcake via count-out

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification when Neidhart hit Santana with Jimmy Hart's megaphone

 

A FIFTH show on January 9th now. This time we get Hogan. Another win for Bulldogs. Ted/Jake again. Angels vs. Matin/Kai again. Hogan vs. Rude (part of Hogan vs. Andre / Heenan Family feud, DiBiase getting involved). Valentine / Beefcake again. Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation again.

 

----------

 

I'm less than 2 weeks in and it's already clear to see that what you are saying isn't true.

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at those results I think it's shockingly obvious that we we are saying is true, to the point where it's kind of scary that you a drawing different conclusions.

 

No one who was watching in that era regarded Jumping Bomb Angles v. Martin/Kai as a money drawing feud. I literally have never heard anyone advance that argument until now. You are seriously arguing on the basis of "Young Stallions gaining momentum" and Dibiase v. opponents he never had memorable feuds with?

 

No one is arguing that Savage couldn't draw and Dibiase couldn't draw. People are arguing that Hogan was the engine and more importantly that JCP was booked with more matches on the average show that would have feuds/storylines behind them that would give them drawing impact. There is less than nothing in the above that points to a different conclusion.

[JerryvonKramer]

Valiant vs. Jones is more meaningful than a Jake vs. DiBiase match or a Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation match or a Valentine vs. Beefcake match or a Honky vs. Savage match in January 88 now? It this what you're telling me? Those matches weren't drawing? What's that 10,000+ Spectrum card without Hogan on it then? When did JCP ever draw 10,000 without Flair? Shit, when did they ever do it WITH Flair? To deny that seems awfully partisan. I'm just waiting for the moment when you tell me "oh it wasn't the booking, feuds, or wrestlers they paid to see there, it was the WWF name". Don't pull that line please.

 

Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Martin and Kai wasn't drawing any money, but it was a lower card match with a feud.

 

I never denied that Hogan was the engine room, I'm just saying there are more pieces to the puzzle and it's blind to ignore them. If they had no faith in the rest of the roster, they wouldn't have run so many non-Hogan shows.

[Dylan Waco]

Valiant vs. Jones is more meaningful than a Jake vs. DiBiase match or a Strike Force vs. Hart Foundation match or a Valentine vs. Beefcake match or a Honky vs. Savage match in January 88 now? It this what you're telling me? Those matches weren't drawing? What's that 10,000+ Spectrum card without Hogan on it then? When did JCP ever draw 10,000 without Flair? Shit, when did they ever do it WITH Flair? To deny that seems awfully partisan. I'm just waiting for the moment when you tell me "oh it wasn't the booking, feuds, or wrestlers they paid to see there, it was the WWF name". Don't pull that line please.

 

Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Martin and Kai wasn't drawing any money, but it was a lower card match with a feud.

 

I never denied that Hogan was the engine room, I'm just saying there are more pieces to the puzzle and it's blind to ignore them. If they had no faith in the rest of the roster, they wouldn't have run so many non-Hogan shows.

I'm not going to "pull anything" with you, I'm just not buying the shit your selling. If you want to pretend the WWF name wasn't a factor that tells me you know little to nothing about American wrestling from that era. There is no wrestling fan who lived through that era who would claim that wasn't a factor in the WWF doing well, especially in there traditional strongholds. Was it the only thing that mattered? No, but pretending it played no role is beyond ignorant.

 

Valiant v. Jones was a feud that was positioned to draw in second tier towns. It was never even close to the most important feud in Crockett, but it was a feud that was catered to the audience taste and did well for them. Did Strike Force v. Harts? I certainly don't recall it, but then I don't recall WWF tags being positioned to be draws the way Crockett or AWA tags were. That's not just me though. That's what Vince himself says. Maybe he's lying.

 

Was Valentine v. Beefcake a hot feud on par with something involving Luger or the Horseman or Sting or The Roadies or any other non-Flair entity of that era? I damn sure don't recall that and I'm a guy looking to give Greg all the credit for everything of note in his career right now. I don't even recall it being Paul Jones Army v. Valiant level and that's not a feud I give a fuck about (sorry Johnny).

 

Was Jake v. Dibiase a feud of note? Was it something built on tv? Was it a storyline people were invested in? Jake is one of the all time greats at getting over an angle and making you remember it - I have no memory of such a thing. At all.

 

Now Honky v. Savage I'll gladly give you - that was a hated heel and a guy getting a lift up the cards and I don't doubt you could affix some drawing power to it with the belt in the balance.

 

They ran fuck tons of non-Backlund and non-Bruno shows too. That's what they always did, they just did it more forcefully and on a broader level with Hogan.

 

When you are pointing to women's tags that had no impact on business and Dream Team split up feud as evidence of WWF feud/storyline depth helping bring people to arenas you are really grasping at straws.

[JerryvonKramer]

So what portion of 10,000 fans at the Spectrum are you giving to the WWF name and what portion are you giving to the card? How about that Quebec show?

 

I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, but it's also a convenient way for you to downplay the importance of WWF cards, feuds and so on.

 

Also, let me quote something back at you that I said earlier:

 

This starts to happen in 88. By 90, 91, 92 they had it down to a fine art.

I'm going to quote the first bit again in case anyone missed it.

 

This starts to happen in 88.

Looking at January 88 is, by my own argument, to look at a time when they were transitioning to a different way of booking (and there IS more meaning to the depth there than in 86). Am I going to be made to do the same thing in the cards leading up to and including Wrestlemania VI?

 

Do I need to spell out all of the drawing feuds they ran in 89 and 90 and 91? Seems like it's going that way.

 

Was Valentine v. Beefcake a hot feud on par with something involving Luger or the Horseman or Sting or The Roadies or any other non-Flair entity of that era? I damn sure don't recall that and I'm a guy looking to give Greg all the credit for everything of note in his career right now. I don't even recall it being Paul Jones Army v. Valiant level and that's not a feud I give a fuck about (sorry Johnny).

 

Was Jake v. Dibiase a feud of note? Was it something built on tv? Was it a storyline people were invested in? Jake is one of the all time greats at getting over an angle and making you remember it - I have no memory of such a thing. At all.

Did they run shows with those matches on top? Did fans pay and turn up to see those shows? Well? If it's "yes" then they are doing something right.

 

Maybe they didn't turn up to see Jake vs. Ted because of a feud but because they were Jake fans who had seen this bastard kicking kids out of a swimming pool last week. "Hot feud" is not the only reason that puts asses in seats. It's a very strong one, but not the only one. Ted vs. Jake in Jan 88 isn't Muraco vs. Orndorff in 86. Both were hot. Sometimes it might be as simple as putting two hot guys in a match. People will turn up. If that didn't happen then why keep running it on top? Same with the other examples.