WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Loss]

I think you laid out a very good case. I need to think about it a little more -- maybe troll Dave into talking about how important he was perceived to be within the WWF at the time, because I'm not sure I know. He was paid well and Vince featured him heavily, so I tend to think he was strongly valued. I also think the PPV rundowns he did of major WWF shows were among the best hard sells ever. I'm close to saying he should be in the HOF, but I'd like something to go on other than just fan perception.

[kjh]

Big Show

I'm sure a lot of people will scoff at me including him as a "guy who should go on the ballot" choice but he does have some positives and I think he has value on the ballot as a point of comparison to other modern candidates (Edge, Batista, et.). I think of him as one of the better big man workers ever, but I don't see that as a major HoF strength. He has been up and down the cards over the years, but when put in the right positions has done well as a draw. Show v. Mayweather did a huge number, I THINK he drew well when he first came in as a fresh heel challenger, and I also think he had some solid buyrates in WCW. How much of that can be attributed to him? Who knows and that's kind of the point. I think he's worth exploring in more detail, but I also think that same "come on was any of that really because of him!" skepticism could and should be applied to other guys that are being given a pass in some quarters.

There's been much worse candidates on the ballot, so he deserves his turn at some point. Agreed that when motivated he's one of the better big man workers ever. As a draw, I'd call him a career underachiever. The only WCW PPV that he headlined that did a particularly good number was the tag with Luger against Hogan and Rodman, which obviously can't be attributed to him. It only took a couple of months for WWF management to sour on him in the spring of '99, which meant he was in fewer house show main events during the peak of the Attitude era than you might expect. Even in his first short run as WWF champion, it was usually Rock's/Foley's/Hunter's match that closed the show. The feud with Brock Lesnar was a memorable one, but took place during a downward slide for WWE business. The Mayweather match was an incredible performance, though it didn't draw a huge number for a celebrity match. Given the amount they shelled out for Mayweather, I think they made a bigger profit from next year's Mania, which just had Shawn vs. Undertaker and the 25th anniversary hype.

[khawk20]

But then my non-dyed Bravo exposure is pretty limited relative to Patera or Rose. Pimp me a match or two?

A few years ago, some new Montreal footage surfaced. the listings from those discs give you some idea of how entrenched Bravo was in the main event scene in Montreal. I've extracted the Bravo matches from the listings below. The range of bouts here are from approximately 1981 through early 1986:

 

Dino Bravo vs. Sailor White

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Masked Superstar & King Tonga

Dino Bravo vs Rick Martel (Quebec City, Verne Gagne in Martel’s corner, Gino Brito in Bravo’s)

Dino Bravo vs Masked Superstar ( 3 matches between 6 & 23 /8/83 )

Dino Bravo vs Kurt Von Hess

Dino Bravo vs Michel Dubois 22/7/81 (film clips)

Dino Bravo vs Abdullah The Butcher (from Montreal—NOT the Japan Bloodbath)

Dino Bravo vs Jimmy Snuka (Snuka is a heel brought in and managed by Lord Al Hayes)

Dino Bravo vs Pierre Lefebvre

Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Hull, Quebec )

Dino Bravo (Int Champ) vs. King Tonga (Title Change)

Dino Bravo & Joe Leduc vs King Tonga & Masked Superstar

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs. King Tonga & Masked Superstar (Montreal Forum)

Dino Bravo & Billy Robinson vs King Tonga & Abdullah the Butcher

Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Montreal Forum)

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs King Tonga & Nick Bockwinkel

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Sheik Ali & Jimmy Garvin

Dino Bravo vs Frenchie Martin

Dino Bravo vs Samu (International title)

Road Warriors vs. Dino Bravo/Rick Martel

Dino Bravo vs. Sheik Ali

Dino Bravo vs. Masked Superstar (Montreal, Superstar attacks Bravo before the match gets going and puts him out, a wild scene ensues with fans throwing chairs)

 

I bolded the ones most worth seeing from what I remember.

 

This list is by no means complete, I'm sure, but you can see that Bravo's position in the important matches on the International area cards must have meant he was a viable main event guy, very popular with the fans, over the long term, and a more-than-credible champion and #1 contender at all times.

 

I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move.

 

Bravo wrestled in and around Montreal from the very early 70's (There is some work of his available from the Vachon's Grand Prix promotion, circa 1972-74) , so his popularity in the area was cultivated over time. When his turn to take the ball and run with it came, he was able to do so in grand fashion.

 

I liken it to Jerry Blackwell's AWA run, as described by Dylan when he was making a HOF credentials thread for Jerry, except that Bravo was able to keep himself viable as a top guy in a much smaller area compared to Blackwell in the AWA. Gotta be really over to do that.

 

As far as I know, in his entire time in Montreal before departing for the WWF, he was always a face.

[El-P]

I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move.

Didn't Bravo and Gino Brito own the Montreal territory ?

[khawk20]

I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move.

Didn't Bravo and Gino Brito own the Montreal territory ?

 

More than likely, but I don't know if they owned it for all-times in the 80's or it got passed around.

[Dylan Waco]

Okerland is a great example of one of those guys in the non-wrestler category who I would neither object to, nor feel super compelled to vote for. I certainly don't think he would look out of place in an HoF.

[Dylan Waco]

But then my non-dyed Bravo exposure is pretty limited relative to Patera or Rose. Pimp me a match or two?

A few years ago, some new Montreal footage surfaced. the listings from those discs give you some idea of how entrenched Bravo was in the main event scene in Montreal. I've extracted the Bravo matches from the listings below. The range of bouts here are from approximately 1981 through early 1986:

 

Dino Bravo vs. Sailor White

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Masked Superstar & King Tonga

Dino Bravo vs Rick Martel (Quebec City, Verne Gagne in Martel’s corner, Gino Brito in Bravo’s)

Dino Bravo vs Masked Superstar ( 3 matches between 6 & 23 /8/83 )

Dino Bravo vs Kurt Von Hess

Dino Bravo vs Michel Dubois 22/7/81 (film clips)

Dino Bravo vs Abdullah The Butcher (from Montreal—NOT the Japan Bloodbath)

Dino Bravo vs Jimmy Snuka (Snuka is a heel brought in and managed by Lord Al Hayes)

Dino Bravo vs Pierre Lefebvre

Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Hull, Quebec )

Dino Bravo (Int Champ) vs. King Tonga (Title Change)

Dino Bravo & Joe Leduc vs King Tonga & Masked Superstar

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs. King Tonga & Masked Superstar (Montreal Forum)

Dino Bravo & Billy Robinson vs King Tonga & Abdullah the Butcher

Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Montreal Forum)

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs King Tonga & Nick Bockwinkel

Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Sheik Ali & Jimmy Garvin

Dino Bravo vs Frenchie Martin

Dino Bravo vs Samu (International title)

Road Warriors vs. Dino Bravo/Rick Martel

Dino Bravo vs. Sheik Ali

Dino Bravo vs. Masked Superstar (Montreal, Superstar attacks Bravo before the match gets going and puts him out, a wild scene ensues with fans throwing chairs)

 

I bolded the ones most worth seeing from what I remember.

 

This list is by no means complete, I'm sure, but you can see that Bravo's position in the important matches on the International area cards must have meant he was a viable main event guy, very popular with the fans, over the long term, and a more-than-credible champion and #1 contender at all times.

 

I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move.

 

Bravo wrestled in and around Montreal from the very early 70's (There is some work of his available from the Vachon's Grand Prix promotion, circa 1972-74) , so his popularity in the area was cultivated over time. When his turn to take the ball and run with it came, he was able to do so in grand fashion.

 

I liken it to Jerry Blackwell's AWA run, as described by Dylan when he was making a HOF credentials thread for Jerry, except that Bravo was able to keep himself viable as a top guy in a much smaller area compared to Blackwell in the AWA. Gotta be really over to do that.

 

As far as I know, in his entire time in Montreal before departing for the WWF, he was always a face.

 

Couple other differences between Bravo and Blackwell - Blackwell was a very good worker for his prime run, Blackwell was a draw in big metro areas over a huge span of territory, Blackwell was at a higher level in St. Louis than Bravo was in MACW or the WWF (that may be arguable, but the results really favor Blackwell in that comparison), Blackwell was an effective draw as a face and a heel.

 

I would be interested to see if Bravo worked heel at all there and what other towns - if any - they ran. I feel like I should maybe add him to the bold as it looks like he was an effective ace for a substantial period of time. This certainly makes me want to study the history of Montreal more which I have wanted to do for a while anyhow.

[khawk20]

My Blackwell comparison wasn't meant to be all-encompassing, it was more of the vibe I get when trying to explain Bravo's importance to the area.

 

He never worked heel in Montreal before his WWF days as far as I know, with the possible exception of his Martel matches. Even that one is subjective as each guy had camps of fans. Bravo did have some moments of heeling in their matches, and Martel was the more traditional good guy.

 

Those two spent more time teaming than they did feuding. Think Gagne-Robinson for a loose comparison.

[Loss]

I've always heard Gene was at his best in the AWA. Dylan, khawk ... confirm/deny?

[El-P]

He never worked heel in Montreal before his WWF days as far as I know, with the possible exception of his Martel matches. Even that one is subjective as each guy had camps of fans. Bravo did have some moments of heeling in their matches, and Martel was the more traditional good guy.

Martel said that when they worked together, Bravo was the face in Montreal and the heel in Quebec City, as Bravo is from Montreal and Martel from Quebec.

[Dylan Waco]

I've always heard Gene was at his best in the AWA. Dylan, khawk ... confirm/deny?

I like Gene a lot in the AWA. His interplay in the studio interviews with Heenan and others was always excellent. He was actually a decent ring announcer/and pbp man as well.

[khawk20]

He never worked heel in Montreal before his WWF days as far as I know, with the possible exception of his Martel matches. Even that one is subjective as each guy had camps of fans. Bravo did have some moments of heeling in their matches, and Martel was the more traditional good guy.

Martel said that when they worked together, Bravo was the face in Montreal and the heel in Quebec City, as Bravo is from Montreal and Martel from Quebec.

 

makes sense...the bout(s) I've seen pieces of were from Quebec City as I remember.

[khawk20]

I've always heard Gene was at his best in the AWA. Dylan, khawk ... confirm/deny?

I like Gene a lot in the AWA. His interplay in the studio interviews with Heenan and others was always excellent. He was actually a decent ring announcer/and pbp man as well.

 

I agree with Dylan, he echoes my thoughts pretty much exactly.

 

I will say that most AWA fans that grew up with marty O'neil as the primary AWA announcer (he was pre-1977-ish, give or take) says Okerlund doesn't compare and they dislike Gene immensely. I grew up with Okerlund and Ken Resnick, Larry Nelson, and the rest after him couldn't hold a candle to him IMO. Roger Kent was also around when I started and did a lot of 80-84 play by play and I liked his stuff too. The rest of the pbp crew after him, not so much.

 

So much of what we like in an announcer is generational, even more so than how differently we look at the wrestlers we grew up watching vs. those we saw after our fandom was established.

[JerryvonKramer]

See, I can't even imagine Gene as a play-by-play guy. One of the things I'm looking forward to on the AWA set.

[Dylan Waco]

See, I can't even imagine Gene as a play-by-play guy. One of the things I'm looking forward to on the AWA set.

He's not great, but by comparison to Trongard, Larry Nelson and Lee Marshall? Let's just say he laps the field.

[Loss]

The way Dave has described AWA Gene is that he had no idea how good he was, and that it showed on camera. He came across as someone who knew he was good in the WWF and wasn't as fun. I don't even know what that means, but it's interesting.

[khawk20]

The way Dave has described AWA Gene is that he had no idea how good he was, and that it showed on camera. He came across as someone who knew he was good in the WWF and wasn't as fun. I don't even know what that means, but it's interesting.

Actually I see what Dave means and it sorta makes sense to me.

[Dylan Waco]

Larry Hennig

 

I actually remember being surprised going through the AWA results that Hennig wasn't as major a star as I was expecting. He definitely was a star of some magnitude, but I don't think he was ever even one of the top four guys in the promotion (certainly not for any length of time). Maybe khawk can call bullshit here.

 

The Spoiler Don Jardine

 

I can't say that I know enough to guarantee I would vote for Jardine, but he absolutely seems like he should be on the ballot, and I think he's got enough of a case where I would learn more in the direction of yes than no. Was a semi-main or main event star in multiple territories for over a decade. I'm not sure when his hottest period was or where it was but he was certainly huge in Texas, a star in the AWA (and the Super D's did draw), and a big deal in Mid-Atlantic. He also had some very notable runs in New York where he was very over as a heel. Plus I'm pretty sure he was a star in LA early on (Wiki check! He was). To be honest it seems weird to me that he's never been on the ballot.

 

Bob Orton Sr.

 

Had some effective runs as a singles star, but most of his big time success came in tag teams with other bigger stars. It seems wrong to say that he didn't have value or importance, but from what I know HoF feels like a stretch. He strikes me as more of an Arn Anderson type.

 

Wild Bull Curry

 

Sort of seen as an innovator of the crazy man schtick, with a crazy look and crazy brawling technique. Not sure how well he drew with this gimmick, but certainly not much as his Detroit brother The Sheik. May be more too him. I think Musgrave's a fan.

 

Cowboy Bob Ellis

 

Was a star of some note for at least fifteen years. Not sure where his biggest success were but he did lay a claim to a World Title at one point. Be interested to know if he was a draw or any note in LA.

 

Luther Lindsay

 

Well he was Stu Hart's favorite from memory. Was a trail blazer of sorts for blacks in wrestling and definitely wrestled a lot of the big names of the day. He worked all over the place and was one of the first major stars in the Pacific Northwest area. He was never an ace so far as I can tell, but appears to have been a traveling opponent of some value and as a territory jumper was quite successful. I don't know enough to endorse him, but I would not have any problem with him on the ballot after a preliminary review.

 

Lord James Blears

 

Primarily a tag worker from what I can tell. I know some say he was a good in ring performer. He was a pretty questionable announcer in the AWA. I assume he must have been a major star somewhere for Dave to have included him on the list. Seems weird to put him on here soley as a guy held a bunch of tag belts.

 

Ilio DiPaolo

 

Relatively short career with some huge highs from what I can tell. Would need a lot more info.

 

Hardboiled Haggerty

 

Was certainly a star of some magnitude in the AWA and I know for a fact some of the older fans from the era he was around in hold him in very high regard. I don't think he was around for a huge amount of time but I'd have to go back and look at the Schire book to make sure of it.

 

Missouri Mauler

 

Really well regarded and well known wrestler for Crockett. One of those guys who occasional will still get mentioned today around here. Not sure how much that means. I'd need to see some results to get a better idea of his value.

 

Hans Mortier

 

Don't know nearly enough.

 

Ron Etchison

 

Totally forgotten name that appears to have been a star for a long time in a lot of places. Not sure how strongly he was presented, but he certainly was booked in a position of strength for a long time. http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/17927.html He'd need someone to dig up some figures and more research on particulars but he actually doesn't seem like a bad candidate.

[GSR]

Mean Gene Okerlund

 

5. Charisma - he had this vibe of having been around the block and being nobody's fool. Okerlund's on-air personality was that he was a shrewed operator with a hint of being a guy who liked a cocktail or two after hours and an eye for the ladies -- the latter part became sleazier into his WCW career. But whichever way you look at it he was a BIG personality. You couldn't call him a bland company man.

What has someone's 'Charisma' got to do with it when it comes to determining whether someone should be in the Hall of Fame?

[kjh]

Lord James Blears

 

Primarily a tag worker from what I can tell. I know some say he was a good in ring performer. He was a pretty questionable announcer in the AWA. I assume he must have been a major star somewhere for Dave to have included him on the list. Seems weird to put him on here soley as a guy held a bunch of tag belts.

Big star in Hawaii.

[khawk20]

Mean Gene Okerlund

 

5. Charisma - he had this vibe of having been around the block and being nobody's fool. Okerlund's on-air personality was that he was a shrewed operator with a hint of being a guy who liked a cocktail or two after hours and an eye for the ladies -- the latter part became sleazier into his WCW career. But whichever way you look at it he was a BIG personality. You couldn't call him a bland company man.

What has someone's 'Charisma' got to do with it when it comes to determining whether someone should be in the Hall of Fame?

 

Charisma is part of the overall package (be it a strong or weak point) in pretty much everyone associated with pro wrestling, is it not?

 

IMO it definitely has it's place when talking about someone's credentials in a discussion like this.

 

I saw Okerlund's overall presentation once described as being akin to a used car salesman, if that analogy helps any. Shit, he may even have been one at some point before getting into wrestling, I can't remember.

 

But as far as his AWA work went, he was as good as the wrestlers themselves when it came to selling matches on an upcoming card. Amongst the 80's AWA announcers and interviewers Ken Resnick was actually decent at it, too.

[Matt D]

Would there be any argument for the team of Race and Larry Hennig? I'm totally ignorant here, but I know they had a fairly long and I thought successful run.

[khawk20]

Would there be any argument for the team of Race and Larry Hennig? I'm totally ignorant here, but I know they had a fairly long and I thought successful run.

They were pretty successful in the AWA but I don't think any sort of argument can be made for a HOF candidacy. The lack of any footage of the team is a roadblock considering that there are not many that would have seen that team wrestle back in the day.

 

The old-timers speak very highly of them as a team, FWIW.

[rzombie1988]

I've seen a lot of Ultimate Warrior matches and promos the last year or two. It's fun to make fun of the Warrior but I really feel like people jump on him a little too much. His promos are goofy and out there but he gets the point across. You have to pay attention but you usually know what he was talking about. His matches weren't all that bad in the 1989-1991 range. He had good matches with Hogan, Savage, Rude, Slaughter and even a few of the Undertaker matches weren't all that bad.

 

I'm not trying to claim that the Warrior is this hidden gem or anything. Just that he has a little more merit than most people are willing to give him credit for.

I've been saying this for a long time. He was involved in some pretty good matches and his fast pace style was fun. Even though his promo's take alot of thinking about to get, you have to atleast give him a thumbs up for the delivery of them. Warrior's push after WM 6 really hurt him. The WWF never put him as the top attraction over Hogan and Rick Rude was not a strong enough opponent. I would be curious to see how things would have went if Warrior and Hogan switched places. I don't think Hogan could have pulled great numbers out of Rude either.

 

The one name who really needs to be in here is Maki Ueda. Jackie was the star of the Beauty Pair, but they were a team, and Maki deserves in as much as Jackie does.

[Log]

Lord James Blears

 

Primarily a tag worker from what I can tell. I know some say he was a good in ring performer. He was a pretty questionable announcer in the AWA. I assume he must have been a major star somewhere for Dave to have included him on the list. Seems weird to put him on here soley as a guy held a bunch of tag belts.

Big star in Hawaii.

 

Wouldn't most fans today know him more for being a guy who literally held a bunch of belts?