WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Matt D]

I'm about 85% convinced that the real draws for that show were Bret and Warrior.

 

Think the idea it was Davey Boy is a WWF-manufactured myth that makes for a neat story.

 

Obviously he was going to be way over with the live crowd but I don't think he sold the show at all.

For what it's worth I LOVE the crowd during Warrior vs Savage. Poor Randy.

[Loss]

I can accept that he was A draw for that show, but I can't accept that he was THE draw.

 

I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if as many people had bought their tickets to see the Legion of Doom. And I fully believe that more people had bought tickets to see Warrior and Bret.

I agree that Davey Boy probably wasn't the key to the show filling Wembley. I think it was a show that drew because it was done in a market where that had never really happened. There was no Hogan-Andre match on this card. People were there for the WWF experience.

 

I intended just to point out that Davey Boy was promoted in a bigger way there than in the U.S.

[Gregor]

I can accept that he was A draw for that show, but I can't accept that he was THE draw.

 

I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if as many people had bought their tickets to see the Legion of Doom. And I fully believe that more people had bought tickets to see Warrior and Bret.

I don't see how more people could have been there to see Bret than to see the Bulldog. The crowd in that match was WAY in Bulldog's corner, and Bret Hart doesn't strike me as a wrestler who's such a great spectacle that people are going to pay just so that they can experience seeing him - people who were there to see Bret Hart were probably there to cheer Bret Hart, too, and there were many more people cheering the Bulldog.

[JerryvonKramer]

The crowd dynamics are deceiving though because ... put a British guy in a union jack at Wembley stadium -- the home of English football, the national stadium -- and it doesn't matter who you're putting in there, that crowd is going to cheer him.

 

That doesn't mean that Bret wasn't over massive in the UK at that time. I don't know if it's anything to go by but around that time out of about 30 boys in my class maybe 10 of them had Bret lunchboxes or pencil cases. Plenty more had Warrior stuff.

 

I had a friend who went to Summerslam who was a massive Bret mark, Bret was easily his favourite wrestler and I'd describe him as a typical casual kid fan at that time. Obviously, on the day, he cheered Davey Boy, obviously he did. That doesn't mean when his mum bought the tickets it wasn't to see Bret.

 

Like Loss says though, the vast majority of ticket sales there weren't down to any one guy, they were down to "here's a chance to see the WWF".

 

The reason I flagged it up as being ABSOLUTELY REMARKABLE is that WWF was never on regular TV here and at that time probably less than 5% of households would have had Sky Sports to watch it. So how with such a small portion of the population getting the weekly TV did Vince manage to pack out Wembley? Just an amazing piece of promotion right there.

 

I'd be interested to know how many kids in the crowd that day actually had access to any WWF programming at that time. I'd be willing to bet it was less than half.

[Loss]

It's worth also mentioning that this was really the "last hurrah" of the era. Their business plummeted in a big way in the last quarter of the year (after having what I believe was their best quarter ever at the beginning of the year) and didn't really recover until the rise of Steve Austin.

[Ricky Jackson]

Where I grew up, wrestling noticeably lost a ton of popularity in the schoolyard over the course of 1991, basically plunging after Mania VII. Looking back, losing the NBC specials probably had a lot to do with it. By early 92 wrestling fandom in my school was basically down to the hardcores, and by the end of 92 you were considered a total dork by the cool kids if you admitted to watching wrestling (although many were likely closet fans).

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there, but my FIRST wrestling experience, my first real one, after being annoyed by friends for years because it was fake and stupid, was begging my parents to stay up and watch a SNME in 90 mainly because i'd be a schoolyard pariah if didn't know what happened.

[Strummer]

I was in high school from 1993-1997 when the popularity of wrestling in the US was at its nadir. I don't think I had one single conversation about wrestling with anyone during those years. The guys that watched all left after 8th grade. Thinking about it I remember a reference to Mankind in homeroom in 12th grade from someone who happened to flip by RAW. There was also a Luger mention in English class when we were studying mythology. THe Narcissist of course.

 

 

Elementary school and junior high were different I still remember us filling out brackets for the WM 4 tournament but we didn't factor in stuff like dqs and byes and it was a mess.

 

It's amazing how fast the decline happened

[JerryvonKramer]

I've said this before, but I think the boom in the UK happened a little bit after it happened in the US and it peaked in 92 and virtually died a death by 93. It was very short lived. I'd say after King of the Ring 93, it was already gone.

 

Incidentally, I carried a briefcase to school around that time and it I can't recall how many times it was used to recreate IRS's attack on Brutus Beefcake's face. That's how over wrestling was at that point, that a briefcase would immediately = Irwin R. Shyster.

[Strummer]

Where I grew up, wrestling noticeably lost a ton of popularity in the schoolyard over the course of 1991, basically plunging after Mania VII. Looking back, losing the NBC specials probably had a lot to do with it. By early 92 wrestling fandom in my school was basically down to the hardcores, and by the end of 92 you were considered a total dork by the cool kids if you admitted to watching wrestling (although many were likely closet fans).

I think this pretty much mirrors what happened at my school. By 91 we were kind of getting sick of Hogan and things slowed down. When I was in middle school in 92 it was pretty much over except a few hardcores. And like I mentioned it was all over in high school.

 

Another memory I have is in 5th grade in computer class talking about the Clash the previous night in Troy, NY. We were all WWF guys but WCW intrigued us

[ohtani's jacket]

I'd sooner see McManus and Pallo in the Hall than Big Daddy but arguing that Dale Martin should have ran Wembley Arena more often if Daddy was such a draw is like arguing that the Matsunagas should have run Budokan more often. Big Daddy vs. John Quinn was the biggest indoor drawing match in British wrestling history at the time it occurred and it was just short of 10k. The record was 14,000 to see Bert Assirati face Maurice Tillet at an outdoor football ground. Dale Martin to my knowledge never ran outdoor shows. Their biggest show of the year was the 5k Royal Albert Hall. Most of the venues they used housed well under 5k. So, it's really a question of how much credit you give being a TV star, selling out small capacity venues around the country and drawing the biggest indoors crowd of any British promoter ever.

[NintendoLogic]

For what it's worth, I don't know if any of the joshi stars merit inclusion based solely on drawing power.

[ohtani's jacket]

So, you're saying the Beauty Pair or the Crush Girls didn't draw big TV ratings, sell out hundreds of shows, move a crapload of merchandise and make the Matsunagas rich? Joshi had the same business model as Joint Promotions -- the revenue from hundreds upon hundreds of shows in the hands of a few. Why the obsession with big gates? England didn't have large scale indoor venues to begin with and neither did Japan during the Joshi's heyday. Joint Promotions ran townhalls and the Matsunagas similar venues. Who cares if they weren't running venues the size of Madison Square Garden if it was successful?

[GSR]

I know Dave at least reads the Classics threads where I have brought up Breaks numerous times. But I have no pull with Dave. I'll respond to NL after work.

Ah, I couldn't imagine Dave having watched a bunch (if any) Jim Breaks footage so thought someone would have to have been in his ear about adding him to the ballot (though after checking out one of the threads at Classics I see that Marty Jones has been added too).

 

I'm about 85% convinced that the real draws for that show were Bret and Warrior.

 

Think the idea it was Davey Boy is a WWF-manufactured myth that makes for a neat story.

 

Obviously he was going to be way over with the live crowd but I don't think he sold the show at all.

I'm not buying that in the slightest. I could agree with Warrior maybe, primarily as (without checking Cawthon's site) I have a feeling it was his first UK appearance, but Bret, no way. I was there that night, and from memory the draw was the fact that it was 'WWF' and the fact that it was 'one of the big four in the UK'.

 

I'd be interested to know how many kids in the crowd that day actually had access to any WWF programming at that time. I'd be willing to bet it was less than half.

There was a group of four of us who went. Three of us had access to WWF programming, the other, I don't know.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I know Dave at least reads the Classics threads where I have brought up Breaks numerous times. But I have no pull with Dave. I'll respond to NL after work.

Ah, I couldn't imagine Dave having watched a bunch (if any) Jim Breaks footage so thought someone would have to have been in his ear about adding him to the ballot (though after checking out one of the threads at Classics I see that Marty Jones has been added too).

 

I'm about 85% convinced that the real draws for that show were Bret and Warrior.

 

Think the idea it was Davey Boy is a WWF-manufactured myth that makes for a neat story.

 

Obviously he was going to be way over with the live crowd but I don't think he sold the show at all.

I'm not buying that in the slightest. I could agree with Warrior maybe, primarily as (without checking Cawthon's site) I have a feeling it was his first UK appearance, but Bret, no way. I was there that night, and from memory the draw was the fact that it was 'WWF' and the fact that it was 'one of the big four in the UK'.

 

I'd be interested to know how many kids in the crowd that day actually had access to any WWF programming at that time. I'd be willing to bet it was less than half.

There was a group of four of us who went. Three of us had access to WWF programming, the other, I don't know.

 

From my amateur historian standpoint, I'm still confused about Bret's drawing power. I can say for sure that he didn't draw SummerSlam 1992 since he wasn't even the company's biggest face by that point, and he didn't draw well as the company's top face. (It is said that he was the best draw of a lot of turds, but then again, IIRC, Undertaker/Yokozuna outdrew any Bret feud in 1993.) Either way, I will work on my own project down the road that will carry with it much more mathematical certainty in classifying draws than what I've seen so far - a method that takes into account business booms and recessions with the idea being that hot feuds in recessions can still sell out arenas and that a crap feud in a hot period can also sell out arenas. So what this will do is let one consider pro-wrestling draws in the aggregate. For example, Kamala drew with Hogan but practically with no one else (in the WWF and WCW), implying he was a fad draw and was in a hot period by context of his having feuded with Hogan in 1987. Bret had a number of feuds, where I believe his best drawing one was against Shawn Michaels (because it had serious heat), though one could say his feud with Owen was the best drawing one in the sense of considering house show attendance (which is what I would do). House shows may not be the top revenue stream now, but imo, it is the best indicator of the health and interest in the company, not PPV buyrates and such. My point on Hart is I can't help but wonder what kind of value he had past expanding the WWF into more markets internationally (which is a huge thing) given that he and Bulldog had the worst buyrate in company history and Hart/Goldberg in WCW drew nothing. In many ways, I think when all is considered, he might not have been a better draw than Shawn Michaels in the aggregate sense.

 

Warrior, Bulldog getting a title shot, Undertaker (who was just a draw in his own right even in 1992), and the WWF being in the UK with a huge show drew that.

[JerryvonKramer]

Don't underestimate LoD at that time too.

[Loss]

Bret wasn't really put in a position to draw until the company tanked, sadly.

 

For what it's worth, his singles push happened because he was getting more fan mail than anyone in the WWF.

[FLIK]

I know Dave at least reads the Classics threads where I have brought up Breaks numerous times. But I have no pull with Dave. I'll respond to NL after work.

Ah, I couldn't imagine Dave having watched a bunch (if any) Jim Breaks footage so thought someone would have to have been in his ear about adding him to the ballot (though after checking out one of the threads at Classics I see that Marty Jones has been added too).

 

It's not really a subject he brings up much but he's talked about having watched a lot of WoS years ago on a few occasions.

[Dylan Waco]

Bret's drawing power or lack thereof has been little discussed.

 

I made the comparison with Dibiase and Patera in the other thread, but if you compare Bret to Patera I suspect you get about the same result - very little gap between candidacies.

[NintendoLogic]

So, you're saying the Beauty Pair or the Crush Girls didn't draw big TV ratings, sell out hundreds of shows, move a crapload of merchandise and make the Matsunagas rich? Joshi had the same business model as Joint Promotions -- the revenue from hundreds upon hundreds of shows in the hands of a few. Why the obsession with big gates? England didn't have large scale indoor venues to begin with and neither did Japan during the Joshi's heyday. Joint Promotions ran townhalls and the Matsunagas similar venues. Who cares if they weren't running venues the size of Madison Square Garden if it was successful?

All excellent reasons to induct the Matsunagas into the HOF. But given that the system was designed for the stars to have short careers and be easily replaceable, the wrestlers have a tougher case as draws. Selling out a bunch of mid-sized venues for four or five years is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really HOF-worthy on its own. What puts the Crush Gals over the top is their ringwork and historical impact. As an aside, if the Beauty Pair were such a big deal, why isn't Maki Ueda in the HOF? And shouldn't the Black Pair be in as well?

[rzombie1988]

So, you're saying the Beauty Pair or the Crush Girls didn't draw big TV ratings, sell out hundreds of shows, move a crapload of merchandise and make the Matsunagas rich? Joshi had the same business model as Joint Promotions -- the revenue from hundreds upon hundreds of shows in the hands of a few. Why the obsession with big gates? England didn't have large scale indoor venues to begin with and neither did Japan during the Joshi's heyday. Joint Promotions ran townhalls and the Matsunagas similar venues. Who cares if they weren't running venues the size of Madison Square Garden if it was successful?

All excellent reasons to induct the Matsunagas into the HOF. But given that the system was designed for the stars to have short careers and be easily replaceable, the wrestlers have a tougher case as draws. Selling out a bunch of mid-sized venues for four or five years is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really HOF-worthy on its own. What puts the Crush Gals over the top is their ringwork and historical impact. As an aside, if the Beauty Pair were such a big deal, why isn't Maki Ueda in the HOF? And shouldn't the Black Pair be in as well?

 

Ueda isn't in because Meltzer doesn't understand that it was the Beauty Pair who drew and not just Jackie Sato. You can't give credit for one person and not the other in a team for drawing the same houses. It'd be like taking the RnR's and only choosing Ricky Morton because he was more popular. All those songs, merchandise and the movie that The BP did had both girls in it, not just Jackie. Few other wrestlers with any of those things that aren't in.

 

I don't think the Hall of Fame should be a longetivity award, especially with women who might want to actually have families. Remember that this is Japan, where women are considered used up at 26. Also, anyone who didn't want to retire when they hit that magical age in Zenjo had no choice until JWP came along, because there was no other company. No other wrestlers in the HOF had that kind of stuff to deal with.

 

Meltzer isn't really the go-to-guy for joshi information anyway. I don't think he's seen a joshi show in 10 years and I'd be surprised if he saw anything pre-86. I'd be surprised if any of his "sources" saw much of either since if you don't know Dan Ginnetty and don't have Samurai TV, it's not happening.

[ohtani's jacket]

All excellent reasons to induct the Matsunagas into the HOF. But given that the system was designed for the stars to have short careers and be easily replaceable, the wrestlers have a tougher case as draws. Selling out a bunch of mid-sized venues for four or five years is nothing to sneeze at, but it's not really HOF-worthy on its own. What puts the Crush Gals over the top is their ringwork and historical impact. As an aside, if the Beauty Pair were such a big deal, why isn't Maki Ueda in the HOF? And shouldn't the Black Pair be in as well?

So, Joshi stars aren't credible draws but the Matsunagas should be in the Hall because they got Joshi acts to draw? I don't follow you. Are you implying that it's difficult for Joshi acts to draw? If the Beauty Pair and Crush Girls weren't draws then very few workers in the Hall qualify as ever having drawn. At what point does a sensational hot period become "historical impact"? The Matsunagas' system was a clever business model that showed they understood their audience. That being said, after the Beauty Pair split they could only replicate their success with the Crush Girls despite numerous attempts at creating idols. As for why only Sato is in the Hall, I pressume it's because she lasted longer, was a bigger draw in Dave's eyes, was the better worker of the two (in so far as Dave thought they were good workers) and passed the torch to Yokota. Most probably it's because someone told Dave that Sato was the true star of that era. Ueda retired due to injury, IIRC. It wasn't because of the mandatory retirement rule. I think Beauty Pair should have gone in together, but I don't see the case for the Black Pair though I like both of them as workers. Sato went in in the original class, so Dave must have considered her a decent enough draw. The whole point of drawing is to make money. The Beauty Pair made money. I don't really understand your criteria for drawing.

[Dylan Waco]

To me there are two types of draws in wrestling.

 

The first is your touring guy/traveling hand who can pop a territory due to his gimmick or due to being over as a strong character with broad exposure. He is often times brought in as a "big" or special opponent for a top star in a territory or is brought in for programs against the biggest stars without having to "work his way up. This category would include guys like Andre, Abby and even Patera among others.

 

The second category is a person, group, team, et that can be said to have set up or sustained a notable hot period in a territory or promotion, with extra points if something is record setting or important. This would apply to obvious guys like Hogan or JYD who drew huge houses in their respective promotions, but it also applies to people that were red hot within their existing business model, which to my mind includes Big Daddy, Buddy Rose, The Beauty Pair, et. Does this mean Hogan = Rose as a draw? God no. But I do think he unquestionably qualifies as a draw of note.

 

Does everyone fit neatly into those categories? No. But most people that can be shown to be draws fit into one of those two categories.

[Matt D]

If you're a wrestling fan in 1980 and they bring in Patera, do you know who he is? Is he instantly credible to you? Andre is. Dory Funk Jr. is. Billy Graham was, right? Was Patera?

[rzombie1988]

Ueda retired due to an injury in 1979. However, having such a hot career with such little time makes her look even stronger in my eyes.

 

Patera would have been credible on his weightlifting background alone.