WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[KrisZ]

Sent my ballot in.

 

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Dick Murdoch

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Buddy Rose

Mr. Wrestling II

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Cien Caras

Huracan Ramirez

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES

Carlos Colon

 

NON-WRESTLERS

Lou Albano

Bill Apter

Gary Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Dr. Alfonso Morales

Don Owen

[Dylan Waco]

On Pedro, Yohe posted this at Classics and I tend to agree with him:

 

2-8-71-Ivan Koloff--well Koloff was major but he drew 21,812 & $86,885

 

3-15-71--Blackjack Mulligan 21,000 $88,865-I never thought of Mulligan as a good performer or a major draw.

 

5-24-71--Tarzan Tyler

 

6-21-71--Luke Graham--Terrible worker & had been in the area many times

 

7-24-71--& Monsson vs Graham & Tyler--21,912--A $103,458 gate for a tag match.

 

8-30-71-Stan Stasiak--16,720 $70,684 I always thought Stan sucked. Not major for sure.

 

10-25-71-Stan Stasiak--22,070 $104,456 WOW

 

11-15-71--Fred Blassie 22,000 Well Fred was major..but old..well guess Fred was born old.

 

12-6-71--Fred Blassie

 

1-31-72--Prof Tanaka 22,076--Tanaka was a good main eventer

 

2-21-72--Prof Tanaka 22,090

 

3-13-72--Baron Scicluna--Scicluna I never saw but I think he was a OK or good worker but not a star outside of the WWF

 

4-17-72--Curtis Iaukea--15,549--Iaukea could talk & was a brawler type--I've seen him look really bad in matches. As a worker I don't see him.

 

5-22-72--Pampero Firpo--19,367--Firpo wasn't a major star. Was this the largest crowd of his career.

 

7-1-72--George Steele-19,512-Maybe Steele was over in NYC but...

 

7-29-72-The Spoiler--Without his mask, Don Jardine was a mid-card worker in LA. I know he has his fans.

 

9-2-72--Ernie Ladd-21,819 $101,000 Can't complain about Ernie.

 

9-30-72--Bruno Sammartino-22,508 $140,923--Pedro goes against the most popular wrestler in NY history & has to wrestle a clean match in a town that never sees face vs face matches. It lasts 1:15:00. Try that. Good luck.

 

10-16-72 & Sammartino vs Tanaka & mr Fuji Sorry but Fuji is terrible.

 

11-27-72-Ray Stevens-18,183 Well OK.

 

12-18-72-Ray Stevens 22,906

 

1-15-73--Moondog Mayne 22,000 I saw his interview & brawling but have no idea how good he was. Don't know if he was much on selling for Pedro. Guess I can't complain.

 

4-30-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,000

 

6-4-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,146

 

6-30-73--George Steele--21,987 Only in NY.

 

8-27-73--Stan Stasiak--18,666--Again.

 

10-15-73--Stan Stasiak-22,102-the 4th time

 

11-12-73--Larry Hennig-16,148--Hennig was a stiff. From want I saw, hard to get a great match out of him. But I didn't live in Minneapolis.

 

Loses title to none other than Stan Stasiak. Will Stan even make the WON ballot?

 

So point is: Pedro drew tons against guys who couldn't work or were freak types. To a serious fan, it doesn't make him look good, outside of the Stevens, Ladd, Blassie, & Jonathan matches.

 

When Billy Graham became heel champion he got Bruno, Rhodes (twice), Mil Mascaras (twice), Peter Maivia, and Backlund in a town hunger for a cool heel champion. All great draws & most HOF'ers. It makes a difference who your in with.

 

Now I would disagree with some of Steve's views on guys on that list, but in general I don't think that is an outstanding slate of challengers, though it is an outstanding run of drawing.

[Matt D]

Did Pedro take bumps like this all the time in the early 70s?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW5Y2jHuLO0

 

geez, fuji too. I guess that's one way to build the early parts of a match around insane bumps. Actually, it's a pretty smartly laid out 3 minutes (of what we have at least) match. I can't say too much for the execution save for the big over the to bumps though.

 

EDIT: watching Patera vs Pedro from 10.20.1980 now. He took another huge over the top bump. Also, he pulls his tights up more than any wrestler I've ever seen. Goes WAY out of his way to interact with the crowd though. It's a fun match, except for the bearhug goes on too long even if they do a few cool things with it, oh and pedro's late match eye-rakes in order to keep Patera from coming back are ridiculous. Them tossing the ref together is just awesome.

[evilclown]

Corny's candidacy on his own looked a lot better in 96 than it does now in retrospect.

Neither here nor there, but I don't think Dave feels this way at all. We had a long discussion about it once at a UFC event and I think Cornette's role as a WWE booker would make him an even better candidate in Dave's mind.

 

Not sure who to vote for. Want to think about it a little more before I turn it in.

[KrisZ]

The one thing that Corny could hang his hat on is the glory days of OVW which I didn't think about when I wrote that post. OVW would probably seal his fate as an individual candidate.

[Dylan Waco]

Corny's candidacy on his own looked a lot better in 96 than it does now in retrospect.

Neither here nor there, but I don't think Dave feels this way at all. We had a long discussion about it once at a UFC event and I think Cornette's role as a WWE booker would make him an even better candidate in Dave's mind.

 

Not sure who to vote for. Want to think about it a little more before I turn it in.

 

Anybody in particular you are on the fence about?

[evilclown]

The one thing that Corny could hang his hat on is the glory days of OVW which I didn't think about when I wrote that post. OVW would probably seal his fate as an individual candidate.

Actually, he gives Cornette credit for a lot of stuff involving the Hart Foundation and Austin when the promotion first started heating up...

[evilclown]

Corny's candidacy on his own looked a lot better in 96 than it does now in retrospect.

Neither here nor there, but I don't think Dave feels this way at all. We had a long discussion about it once at a UFC event and I think Cornette's role as a WWE booker would make him an even better candidate in Dave's mind.

 

Not sure who to vote for. Want to think about it a little more before I turn it in.

 

Anybody in particular you are on the fence with?

 

Schmidt, the Andersons, and the Rock and Roll Express are three I'm considering.

 

I'd really like to find a way to justify Volk Han.

[Dylan Waco]

I think the best justification for Han is that he was the best worker of his style. If I had a ballot and Hamada wasn't on the ballot I'd also vote for him because I'm not convinced any of the other Japanese candidates should get in and that eats off some of their percentage.

 

FWIW Han was the top gajin in RINGS though I don't think he was ever really there top star. Yohe has a post on Classics with every RINGS card and IIRC the majority of them have attendance figures, though I don't think that really helps or hurts Han much other than showing that he was presented as a star which is something we already know.

 

I am personally torn on all the tag teams on the ballot other than the RnR's who I think should be in because they are a rare tag team that fits all three criteria - great in the ring, good draws, big influence. I am honestly not sure there is a better in ring tag team in U.S history than the RnR's the more I think about it and I also tend to give them points for drawing in SMW during a period where wrestling was down (not that they were HoF level draws there, but you could make a case they were the most successful faces in America at that point).

 

I tend to think Schmidt is about as "no brainer" as anyone currently on the ballot. Surprised KrisZ didn't vote for him.

[kjh]

Now I would disagree with some of Steve's views on guys on that list, but in general I don't think that is an outstanding slate of challengers, though it is an outstanding run of drawing.

It's an impressive run in MSG for sure. But it's almost like the 70s equivalent of Crow Sting being the hottest star in the business. The criticism of Morales was he always drew well in New York, but not in the other WWWF markets. I think I'd want to see at least some success in other territories as well. Miguel Perez Sr. had an equally as strong and longer record of drawing at MSG as Antonino Rocca's tag partner. Same could be said about JYD in Louisiana.

[FLIK]

What is the argument for Tanahashi going in now?

Great in ring work, 6 time IWGP champ & ace of the company for the last 6 or 7 years. Biggest draw they've had over that time span & was the guy on top & leading the company when they had to dig themselves out of the hole Inoki created in the early to mid 2000's. While NJPW isn't doing as great as they were in their hey day they're doing better then they have in a while. Kind of the Japanese equivilant of Cena actually.

 

On this subject, Meltzer in today's news update

 

--Go out of your way to watch the video of Hiroshi Tanahashi's IWGP title win over Kazuchika Okada. Tanahashi may be the best all-around in-ring performer combined with being among the most charismatic guys in the business today.

[Dylan Waco]

Now I would disagree with some of Steve's views on guys on that list, but in general I don't think that is an outstanding slate of challengers, though it is an outstanding run of drawing.

It's an impressive run in MSG for sure. But it's almost like the 70s equivalent of Crow Sting being the hottest star in the business. The criticism of Morales was he always drew well in New York, but not in the other WWWF markets. I think I'd want to see at least some success in other territories as well. Miguel Perez Sr. had an equally as strong and longer record of drawing at MSG as Antonino Rocca's tag partner. Same could be said about JYD in Louisiana.

 

I think it's pretty obvious there is a difference between drawing as the tag partner of an over act and being the over act.

 

Crow Sting is a poor comparison, because Crow Sting didn't really wrestle and he was programmed against the top heel act in the U.S. in a decade or longer. Pedro's most lasting feud was with Stan Stasiak.

 

Morales was a star to one degree or another in LA. I'd be interested to see what his cards/matches were. But I'd vote for him with 71-73 as the strength and the things around it as the meat that fattens up the candidacy.

 

JYD should clearly be in as far as I'm concerned.

[Dylan Waco]

For the record I think Tanahashi is pretty terrible more often than not, but that's not why I wouldn't vote for him.

[ohtani's jacket]

In the 4/15/85 Observer recap on this site it mentions that Gran Hamada is very unpopular with wrestlers. Has this ever come up in Hall of Fame discussions?

[Johnny Sorrow]

That's not a knock on Albano. I'm an agnostic on him

I can assure you, he did exist.

 

 

 

[puropotsy]

Corny's candidacy on his own looked a lot better in 96 than it does now in retrospect.

Neither here nor there, but I don't think Dave feels this way at all. We had a long discussion about it once at a UFC event and I think Cornette's role as a WWE booker would make him an even better c

andidate in Dave's mind.

 

Not sure who to vote for. Want to think about it a little more before I turn it in.

 

Anybody in particular you are on the fence with?

 

Schmidt, the Andersons, and the Rock and Roll Express are three I'm considering.

 

I'd really like to find a way to justify Volk Han.

 

Jonathan, I'm just curious about your thoughts on Masahiko Kimura as a candidate.

 

Also, a list of territories that Pedro worked include WWWF, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Mid-Atlantic, Portland, Hawaii, Florida, St. Louis, Central States, Houston, AWA, Toronto, Puerto Rico, All Japan (70s), New Japan (80s), Vancouver and Amarillo.

 

I think that California is generally regarded as the other area he had his most success outside of WWWF. In his book, Flair spoke positively about Morales over Sammartino, saying that he was a better worker and that is why he got over in St. Louis more tan Bruno did. I don`t give credence to his critique of Bruno but would be open-minded to whether Pedro did well in St. Louis.

 

I did find some record of him travelling as WWWF champion including to Hawaii, Los Angeles and AWA.

 

I`m not sure of full results of his work in Japan but he did at least face Baba for the PWF title so he had some degree of positioning on the cards. There is a match between them available on youtube as well.

 

He does appear to have had some success in Pureto Rico in 1983 and 1984 holding the North American title. He did some teaming with Colon and had title matches with opponents such as Flair and Savage as well as Buddy Landell and Sweet Daddy Siki.

 

I`d be interested to hear opinions on his success as I-C champ. I`m not sure if he had the chance to headline many shows in that capacity..

[khawk20]

I never saw Pedro during his AWA run in the later 70's but those who did have said he was pretty much just another body...didn't stand out as a must-see sort of wrestler.

[KrisZ]

Pedro's problem was that outside of the WWWF he was pretty much a midcarder at best and more lower midcard.

[Dylan Waco]

Pedro had value to the promotion as IC Champion. His feud with Patera drew. In fact when Backlund was in Japan they actually got an MSG main event. Even with relatively weak undercard support (IIRC) they drew almost 20k.

[JerryvonKramer]

What's the real case for Murdoch beyond the fact he was around a long time?

[Dylan Waco]

I'll get into this more later if I have the time, but Murdoch is one of those guys who was upper mid-carder/main eventer for the majority of his career in a variety of territories on top of being a great worker.

[goc]

Reading Mat Results Volume 4 02 and it has part 1 of a bio on Dick Murdoch which says the first ever card at the Superdome on 7/17/76 was main evented by Murdoch vs. Killer Karl Kox in a "Jim Bowie Death Match" which apparently was a blindfold match with seconds to give directions. Didn't give an attendance but it would indicate that Murdoch was at least a draw at this period of time in Mid-South, which was right after turning babyface and breaking away from Killer Karl Kox and Buck Robley.

[JerryvonKramer]

No real discussion of Wilbur Snyder here. Does the man who invented the abdominal stretch deserve to be in the HoF?

[Al]

Who I would vote for if I had a ballot.

 

HISTORICAL

Hans Schmidt

 

MODERN

John Cena

Curt Hennig

Ivan Koloff

Pedro Morales

Rock 'n' Roll Express

Sgt. Slaughter

Sting

 

JAPAN

None

 

MEXICO

Cien Caras

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

EUROPE

Big Daddy

 

WORLD

Carlos Colon

 

NON-WRESTLERS

Lou Albano

Jim Crockett Jr.

Jerry Jarrett

Gorilla Monsoon

 

I wouldn't cast a ballot in Europe/Japan/World as I don't feel personally qualified enough to make a real determination there. I'm just going based on limited knowledge there.

[Dylan Waco]

What's the argument for Hennig?

 

Snyder is a candidate worth considering, but I'm not sold on him. A huge chunk of his career was spent as a secondary figure in his own promotion. He was a draw of some note and won the U.S. and Omaha version of the World title, but I'm not seeing him as a consistent drawing card. Nor do I know enough about him as a worker to advocate for him on that level.