JerryvonKramer Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 There is no clear number 2. Cases could be made for Geigel, Vince Sr., Rikidozan, Inoki, Baba, Heyman, Watts, Crockett, Jarrett, Bischoff (or Turner), Graham, Gagne, von Erich, Boesch, Cornette, to name but 15 prominent people. Although looking at that list of names, Rikidozan stands out -- I don't know enough about Japanese wrestling history to say for sure, but it looks to me that without him there wouldn't even be a pro wrestling scene in Japan. Do we know anything about what pro wrestling was like in Japan before him? If he's basically the guy responsible for Japanese wrestling, then he probably challenges Vince for the #1 spot. That would make this thread actually about #3. Some people would have you believe that what Heyman did with ECW "revolutionised" wrestling forever and that he was the main catalyst not only for the hardcore craze that plagued the late 90s but also for the "attitude era" itself. But I think similar arguments about "steering the creative direction of wrestling" for each of the major territorial bosses. Bob Giegel seems like a pretty major deal to me, he continued to weild power and influence and NWA president well into the 80s. Obviously, Inoki and Baba have very strong cases too. Again, I don't really know enough to say who is more important, who did more for business, who was more innovative, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Salvador Lutheroth Gonzales, no ? Either him or Inoki. Or Jim Barnett, my boy. I love Cornette, but what did he do as a promoter excatly ? SMW ? I love ECW, but seriously... Yes, it was an influence on Bischoff then Vince. On its own, ECW was an experiment that fell flat on its face, lost money and died a horrible death. Not to mention the good it brought has been balanced by all the bad it brought. What is the "good" influence of ECW on today's product ? Zilch. I like Bischoff as a character, and he had a hand on WCW's success at one point, but he was no promoter, and fucked up way more things than he actualy built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Barnett over the other regional promoters El-P? What's he got over Watts, Graham, Jarrett, Giegel, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 If your answer is anything but Toots Mondt you're wrong. Maybe still even more important than Vince. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Or Jim Barnett, my boy.I haven't read it in quite a while, but Dave's obituary on Barnett was both fascinating and fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sam Muchnick, because he was a key founder of the NWA and was the glue that kept them together until the early 80s, would be one of the most important promoters in wrestling history. When Barnett promoted in Australia it was the hottest territory in the world. He was also a key figure in the NWA winning their battle in Atlanta with Ann Gunkel and also helped Vince McMahon in the early days of the WWF expansion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sam Muchnick, because he was a key founder of the NWA and was the glue that kept them together until the early 80s, would be one of the most important promoters in wrestling history. When Barnett promoted in Australia it was the hottest territory in the world. He was also a key figure in the NWA winning their battle in Atlanta with Ann Gunkel and also helped Vince McMahon in the early days of the WWF expansion. This. Also, I don't know if I'd call either of them the most important promoters in wrestling history, but it feels wrong to have a conversation like this without mentioning Paco Alonso or Antonio Pena. I'm pretty sure the answer to this question is Antonio Inoki, but I could be persuaded otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Inoki as a default answer rather than Baba? Anyone care to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Barnett over the other regional promoters El-P? What's he got over Watts, Graham, Jarrett, Giegel, etc.? See above. The answer's been given. I wish there was tapes from Australia. Inoki has a very strong case. Since we're throwing Jerry Jarrett in there, what about Victor Jovica ? He's been going since the early 70's on an Island, and no one ever disputed his crown. Names that haven't been mentionned there are the Matsunaga brothers. I mean Zenjo was huge at points, and it has a very long history of being a super successful promotion. And defining women's wrestling. You can argue Atsushi Onita has a place for doing so much with so few. The guy had no TV for so long, and he made shitload of money and drew shitload of people. Sure, it didn't lasted, but it was impressive while it was going on. I'm not seriously arguing Onita is the N°2 of course, but just wanted to throw his name out there. I don't think anyone accomplished so much with so few cards in his hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Inoki as a default answer rather than Baba? Anyone care to explain? New Japan was the number 1 promotion in the world for nearly 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Inoki as a default answer rather than Baba? Anyone care to explain? New Japan was the number 1 promotion in the world for nearly 20 years. Yes. I think there was a brief period in the mid 80s when All Japan was beating New Japan, but that coincided with Choshu's jump. Am I correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why Inoki as a default answer rather than Baba? Anyone care to explain? New Japan was the number 1 promotion in the world for nearly 20 years. Yes. I think there was a brief period in the mid 80s when All Japan was beating New Japan, but that coincided with Choshu's jump. Am I correct? Yep, I think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Wasn't Gagne establishing the AWA in 1960 key in preventing some anti-trust action against the NWA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 For better or worse, Jack Pfefer deserves to be mentioned in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Barnett also had success promoting multiple territories over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Barnett definitely has to be among the top of the list here as not only did he save the NWA in 1972 but when Ole Anderson ran him out 10 years later he sold his GCW stock to Vince kickstarting the expansion plan and then he was used to recruit new towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Personally I much prefer Baba's product to Inoki's (with some brief exceptions) but in terms of who was the more important figure as a promoter yeah it's definitely Inoki. It would be really hard to overstate his overall importance to the Japanese and even the world scene. Although I kind of see them joined at the hip in a sense, and they were probably good for each other. Probably pushed each other on in their own way. Similarly to how for my money the WWE has fallen off since it no longer had anyone to challenge them and keep them needing to find new ways to keep the fans involved. Most wrestling promoters seem to need someone to measure themselves against or a bit of healthy competition to really get them going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Jack Curley should be added if people are talking about Toots. I'm not even sure Toots warrants being all that highly rated, other than in his own mind. I suspect Lutheroth warrants being #2. Sam Muchnick is kind of a different beast as a promoter, since it's less his promotion/territory that warrants him high on the list but instead his ability to leads / keep together the cartel of other promoters. The Inoki vs Baba thing... I'm not sure it's a lock for Inoki. Is it clear that Inoki kicked his ass in the 70s, other than the Ali thing? I'm not sold on that. While Inoki "won" 1981-84, did he win the rest of the decade in clear fashion? I'm not sure about 1980, we know he didn't in 1985-86, and if you read the WON and JWJ, it's not as though business went through the roof when Choshu & Co jumped back. Business in 1988 wasn't gangbusters, and despite the Dome in 1989, the hot company was UWF 2.0. In turn, Baba was study, got a Choshu spike, and then the Revolution was study. 90s? I don't think we can credit *any* of NJPW's success to Promoter Inoki. Choshu was effectively in charge during all of the high points. So the 90s are 0 for Inoki in NJPW, while All Japan had a long successful run before the slow decline. It's safe to say that Baba kicked Inoki's ass more in the 90s than Inoki beat up Baba in 1981-84. A Choshu-Baba comp in the 90s would be different, but that's not the issue. Wait... did I say "0" for Inoki? 01/04/99 Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (6:58) Ah... that's right. Just before Baba died, Inoki helped start the feud that would destroy the most valuable New Japan wrestler of the generation. Negative billion business stars for Inoki in the 90s from just that. Inoki did have some non-pro wrestling success by gloaming onto the MMA craze. To be honest, does anyone think he had a *positive* impact on that in a Promoter role? Okay, then set aside a chunk of the 70s because Inoki was the "wrestler" / "star", while a lot of the promotional / business decisions were made by folks like Shinma. A Big Chunk. Inoki has "impact", but it was as an actor / pro wrestler nailing stuff that the front office came up with him. Even Hisa pointed to the Ali deal as being likely a Shinma deal rather than an Inoki deal. I don't want to say that Inoki was the George W. Bush / Rick Perry of New Japan... but... He was the George W. Bush / Rick Perry of New Japan. As a "promoter" / "front office" guy, I'd actually rate Choshu higher. He elevated the next generation of stars. If the business hadn't begun to go in the crapper partially due to MMA and partially due to Inoki, I think it's likely that he would have cultivated another generation to be ready to take the Three Musketeers place. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Well, I admit I thought of Inoki as the guy who created and carried NJ up the the point of becoming the N°1 promotion in the world, totally omitting Shinma and Choshu. John makes a good case of putting Inoki in a not so bright light. That said, Vince has the WBF, the XFL and fucked up the biggest angle in wrestling history to his negative credit. And he kinda ruined wrestling, at least for me. Does he still gets N°1 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Everyone has their black marks. Choshu certainly included. World Japan anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Of course Vince is #1. Took a big regional promotion and turned it into a massive national promotion, leading to all of the competition dying off eventually. Eventually $400M+ a year in revenue. Started the national push in 1984... it's 2012 now, so we're close to 30 years. They've been #1 for all but arguably 1-2 years of that period. That's pretty massive. There's a lot to say about how he's changed the business, for better or worse. But he has changed it. Of course Choshu has negatives. Any as big of negative impact on pro wrestling as Inoki's: * Ogawa vs Hash II * MMA over Pro Wrestling John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not at all on Choshu, not really arguing with you here. I would point out that Inoki (or Vince or anyone else) having massive negatives doesn't necessarily equate to them being less "important". Big mistakes can have just as significant an effect on the business as a brilliant move. Maybe more so. In that sense, at least even Inoki's failures have tended to be pretty honkin' grand failures. He just seems to be that kind of person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Have I missed the reason Rikidozan isn't automatic #2 here? Why wouldn't he be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 There's not a promoter out there who has had more good and successful ideas than bad ones. Vince has probably had more bad ideas than just about anyone in wrestling history. But he's still the best promoter ever, because of the good ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Except Vince is not a pro-wrestling promoter. He's in the entertainment business, from his own account. So, what about Dana White ? ............................. ............................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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