ohtani's jacket Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Loss just made a comment about Nick Patrick being awesome in 1997. I've got to admit, I rarely pay attention to referees. What is it that people notice about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Reliability and invisibility. Don't fuck anything up, and don't draw attention to yourself. If the referee's doing his job right, you should never even realize he's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 That's pretty much it. There are certain times where I notice the ref: Wada, for instance, I've seen put his ear right in close to a guys face when in a submission (particularly Misawa's facelock) in order to hear him better, which I liked and thought more people ought to do. But, other than that kind of thing, yes, what Jingus said. I wouldn't like to be the WWE referee who walks in front of the hard cam (and, so, the wrestlers in shot) during a spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 To add on to what's been said, I hate spots like the ref disallowing a hot tag because he didn't see it. Stuff like that puts the heat on the referee rather than on the heels where it belongs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 If I notice the referee, he is probably doing too much. I want a solid, consistent pinfall count. Not super slow like a lot of the Lucha refs. I also don't want the ref to have some sort of quirk that gives away near-falls like Earl Hebner. Takes me right out of a match. Nick Patrick used to be terrible at over-selling ref bumps but ref bumps should happen so rarely that that shouldn't ever really be a problem. I basically want a ref that stays out of the way, doesn't fuck up and is consistent throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahoos Leg Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 The few live ROH shows I have been to, Todd Sinclair worked his ass off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 The ROH matches that I've been to, I've lost my voice yelling at Sinclair for what a fuck up he is. Part of it is that style: wrestlers do shit right infront of the ref that they ref "isn't suppose to see" or is forced to ignore. It makes him look like an idiot. But my yelling at Sinclair for fucking up was so regular in the first two shows I went to that the last time: (i) I made a point to save my voice by not yelling at him (ii) my GF tossed out to Pat McNeill an off hand, "John hates Sinclair" I do agree on some level that he works his ass off. And like I say, half of what he "screws up" on is because of wrestlers these days being so lost in their own masturbatory bubble that they don't give a shit that there's a ref. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 And like I say, half of what he "screws up" on is because of wrestlers these days being so lost in their own masturbatory bubble that they don't give a shit that there's a ref.Oh yeah. Nine times out of ten, when the referee sees something he shouldn't, it's the wrestlers' fault. I can't begin to tell you how many times I felt embarrassed while reffing matches when wrestlers would do something really fucking stupid, right in fucking front of me. Illegal moves, weapons, blatant rope-grabbing during holds and feet on the ropes during pinfalls, all kinds of insulting shit. And then the crowd usually gets mad at the REF, not the heel who is supposed to be getting all this heat via their cheap-ass tactics. But if you actually enforce the rules, then you get yelled at by the workers and the booker for supposedly ruining their stuff. Of course, everyone has a breaking point. Here's a story of the only time I ever shot on anyone as a ref. One time I was reffing a tag match, where the heel on the apron was this horribly untalented backyarder named Fez. We're in the heat, and the guys in the ring are doing a false tag spot. They're inching closer and closer to the face corner, and I naturally position myself reasonable close to the heel corner so that Fez can distract me without either of us having to walk halfway across the ring. But Fez isn't distracting me. He's sitting there like a bump on a goddamn log. The face in peril is within a foot of making the tag, so I mutter out of the corner of my mouth "Get me, Fez, get me!". I still have no idea what the fuck he was thinking, but he grabs me and starts punching me. Worked punches, but still! And then he bites me on the forehead like he's fucking Hollywood Hogan. I grabbed that little bastard by the scruff of the neck and hit a "B-Boy elbowing JC Bailey" forearm smash with all of my might. Knocked his ass right off the apron, and I proceeded to scream profanities at him on the floor for the next several seconds. But even at a "family show", none of the fans cared about my swearing because everyone could tell how weird and fucked-up this was. Long story short, he never got booked again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Awesome story. And yeah... the workers don't make it easy on the refs. The majority of my yelling at Sinclair is a pass through: the wrestlers are being fucking idiots and Sinclair has to sit there like a bump in the log, so someone needs to get yelled at. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Refs should be under the age of 70 and should be able to move quickly. Most lucha refs and Frank Morell/Bronco Lunbrich were just awful cause of that. Especially modern day CMLL. Oh and Heel refs are awful too. Like Hijo de Tirantes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
med2089 Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 As a referee, here are some of the rules I live by: 1. Like others have said, stay out of the way. Nothing is worse than getting in the way of a spot and potentially having a negative impact on the match. This is probably the most important thing (other than help with communication) that a referee can do. 2. Don't draw any attention to yourself, unless told to do so by the promoters. Even then, be careful about how you do it, as it could cause more problems than it's worth. 3. Be firm, but not too firm. Again, this is an "avoiding attention" kinda thing - you're not supposed to be over. You're supposed to be enforcing the rules and counting pinfalls. 4. React for bigger moves, but don't overreact. I believe it's OK for a referee to give the feeling of "Holy shit! That just happened right in front of me!" but not to overdo it. It gives a certain feeling of believability - you're not an emotionless robot out there. 5. Work your match around the wrestlers you're working with. For example, it doesn't hurt to do little things like say "Si or no?" to someone who is/portrays a Mexican import, because if you're asking them "Hey! Do you want to give it up?", they're not really supposed to be able to understand you. 6. Don't telegraph nearfalls. Earl Hebner and Scott Armstrong are notorious for this, and it drives me crazy watching them. Here's a story of the only time I ever shot on anyone as a ref. One time I was reffing a tag match, where the heel on the apron was this horribly untalented backyarder named Fez. We're in the heat, and the guys in the ring are doing a false tag spot. They're inching closer and closer to the face corner, and I naturally position myself reasonable close to the heel corner so that Fez can distract me without either of us having to walk halfway across the ring. But Fez isn't distracting me. He's sitting there like a bump on a goddamn log. The face in peril is within a foot of making the tag, so I mutter out of the corner of my mouth "Get me, Fez, get me!". I still have no idea what the fuck he was thinking, but he grabs me and starts punching me. Worked punches, but still! And then he bites me on the forehead like he's fucking Hollywood Hogan. I grabbed that little bastard by the scruff of the neck and hit a "B-Boy elbowing JC Bailey" forearm smash with all of my might. Knocked his ass right off the apron, and I proceeded to scream profanities at him on the floor for the next several seconds. But even at a "family show", none of the fans cared about my swearing because everyone could tell how weird and fucked-up this was. Long story short, he never got booked again. I had this happen once - a finish got changed on the fly, and I was supposed to get bumped, but the spot got changed to where they never bumped me. So the promoter, who was in the match as the top heel/champion, decided the best way to handle this would be to shoot choke me in the corner. I decided the best thing to do in this instance would be to go down as quick as possible so he could get on with the spot and I could get out of there ASAP, as he was the type that would attack people at random just for the hell of it. He left immediately after, and left Rockin' Rebel in charge without asking him, including paying the building and the doctor. Needless to say, I never went back after that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Med's advice is all really good. The communication aspect is one thing that never really gets talked about online, because it's one of those rare things that you really don't understand unless you've been in the ring and experienced it. You've got to be able to speak quickly, clearly, concisely, and do it all in a weird vocal manner so that the wrestlers hear every word but the fans in the front row have no idea what you're saying. As for showing emotion, that's a tough tightrope to walk. I only ever did it when it felt like the moment really needed it. Like, one time we had two guys going to a double countout. Specifically, the sort of double countout where supposedly they get so caught up in brawling that they just don't notice the count and don't get back in the ring. In those situations, the heat of the finish usually goes right on the referee; the fans get pissed off that you were such a by-the-book martinet and didn't allow the wrestlers enough leeway, and the inevitable "five more minutes" chants begin. Well, to make sure that shit didn't happen, I just added a couple of extra yells in between counts. "FOUR... come on guys, you gotta get back in the ring! FIVE..." and then progressively acting more annoyed as they didn't listen, leading to "NINE... LAST CHANCE! ...TEN, ring the bell!" Slowing the count down a little bit as the numbers get higher is also a nice shortcut to get the crowd not to hate you, since it looks like you're giving the wrestlers a fair chance and they're just being dumbasses who won't listen so caught up in their vicious blood feud that they eschew all codes of gentlemanly fisticuffs. Like I keep saying, the last thing you want heat on is a supposedly impartial official. 5. Work your match around the wrestlers you're working with. For example, it doesn't hurt to do little things like say "Si or no?" to someone who is/portrays a Mexican import, because if you're asking them "Hey! Do you want to give it up?", they're not really supposed to be able to understand you.Heh. One time I was working for a ladies' promoter who brought in this really awful girl from Germany who spoke no English. The match was sucking about fifteen or sixteen dicks and the crowd knew it, so in desperation I started to do a little bit of comedy by doing all my counts in foreign languages... in every language except German, of which I speak zero. the promoter, who was in the match as the top heel/championShiiiiit, brotha, that's all you had to say. I dunno what it is about completely incompetent egomaniacs that make them think "hey, I'm the shittiest wrestler on the entire goddamn planet... I should promote a show AND be the ridiculously super-dominant top villain!", but I've seen several of 'em. Fuck guys like that. Never met one who wasn't a complete prick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Thanks, this was really interesting. Though I guess they must all do an excellent job if I don't notice any of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Yeah, I would say invisibility is the hallmark of a good referee. When I mentioned Nick Patrick, I was actually praising him as a character more than I was praising him as a referee. He's not the best guy at typical ref stuff, but he is great for stuff like the teased boxing match with Cornette in the Midnights/Rock & Rolls match and the NWO angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I want a solid, consistent pinfall count. Biggest one for me, by far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
med2089 Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 being dumbasses who won't listen That's also very important - the wrestlers have to be willing to listen to what you're trying to tell them. The countout thing is the worst - I've been a part of a couple accidental shoot countouts where they then had to improvise a way to restart the match. Sometimes it works out really well, and others, it really doesn't. the promoter, who was in the match as the top heel/championShiiiiit, brotha, that's all you had to say. I dunno what it is about completely incompetent egomaniacs that make them think "hey, I'm the shittiest wrestler on the entire goddamn planet... I should promote a show AND be the ridiculously super-dominant top villain!", but I've seen several of 'em. Fuck guys like that. Never met one who wasn't a complete prick. Yeah, that's usually the case - in at least four segments on the show, preaches about keeping to your times and keeping everything family friendly, but then goes to the ring, goes over time by at least ten minutes, and says every foul word he can think of. And of course, always a TERRIBLE worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Might be a case to merge this thread with this one: prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15061 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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