Mr Wrestling X Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Seriously, the formula is the SAME every fucking match. I appreciate that the FIP concept is the most popular way of laying out a tag team match, but it's become so fucking predictable in WWE that I switch off the TV or go and do something else when a tag team match is on. - Match beginning: after a short back and forth, face team briefly get the upper hand - Heel team takes control, isolates a member of the face team - Member of face team plays Ricky Morton, heel team make continuous tags - Ricky Morton builds momentum, lots of false hot tags - Ricky Morton hits a big move that evens the score, both legal men go for the tag - Heel legal man gets the tag, a split second later Ricky Morton makes the hot tag - The hot tag man cleans house, followed by a short momentum shift back-and-forth - The finish: the face team gets the win or the heel team gets the win It's so fucking predictable... It's boring, it's not innovative, it's not impressive and anyone who thinks that WWE's tag team matches are great, has settled for mediocrity. I wish WWE looked to AJPW and NOAH for inspiration where tag match booking is concerned. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Obviously they need to institute the DOUBLE FIP And maybe the LATE MATCH SHINE LEGWORK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Obviously they need to institute the DOUBLE FIP Actually, most WWE tag matches do have two FIP sections. Anyway, I'll co-sign this. WWE tag matches might be my least favorite thing in wrestling right now because they're so stale and formulaic. The simultaneous hot tag in particular is something that always drives me crazy. I get the idea behind it (the fresh heel comes in and tries to prevent the FIP from tagging out), but it almost never works out that way. One of the reasons I got into the Prime Time Players was that their matches tended to deviate from the formula. But working with Kofi has forced them back into the mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negro Suave Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 That's pretty much the standard formula even in Japan, just they are done slightly differently or over a different period of time. Where as the American match is self contained a japanese tag would be more doing those steps over several matches as opposed to one match and in mexico it would be across falls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Honestly, I'm not sure they can really get that far away from that. The trick is to make it interesting in the execution and ideas, to find clever ways to make a hot tag work and to make an opening shine segment interesting. I'm not sure it's about the what but instead about the how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 All, repeat ALL wrestling matches are a variation on the following structure: Shine Stretch Hope spot Comeback Finish You can add in bits and pieces. You can have two stretches and two comebacks. You can add in a section where the face is on top for a bit if you want. You can skip the shine (see a lot of Hansen matches). But fundamentally all matches are made of the same basic ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 The problem isn't that the matches are similar structurally, it's that they're the same even in the details. Like, there are a ton of ways to set up a hot tag, but 99% of WWE tag matches only use one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=14256 There's a discussion on alternative match structures I tried to start once. I was naive. There are no alternative match structures, only variations on the structure outlined above. This is not a bad thing. It's just the grammar of wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Really, doesn't this just come down to Kofi being kind of shitty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 The problem isn't that the matches are similar structurally, it's that they're the same even in the details. Like, there are a ton of ways to set up a hot tag, but 99% of WWE tag matches only use one. This. I cannot recall the last time a face team made the hot tag by any other method. 95% of the time, the face team always gets the tag a split second just after the legal heel team member gets his tag. I'd suspect that on many of the occasions where the face team member has got the tag first, it's been down to timing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Really, doesn't this just come down to Kofi being kind of shitty? Or the WWE being kind of boring and uninspired in general, outside of D-Bry and a few others, for several months now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 What kills WWE tag matches the most for me are when someone gets thrown out of the ring and you get the Michael Cole "we're about to go to commercial!" voice. Then, no matter what happened prior to the break, when you come back the heel is going to have the babyface in a headlock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted August 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 ^ I wonder if there is a special signal that tells the wrestlers to go for the old commercial break routine? I don't think I've ever heard any of the referees audibly inform the wrestlers - I'm assuming that the referees communicate this, hence the earpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Faulconer Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 The spots in singles and tag matches that telegraph commercial breaks are what annoys me the most about their formula. You can usually see it coming five moves ahead of time. The announcers saying the exact same thing to telegraph the telegraphed sequence before the break are super duper annoying. It is the type of production that a five year old probably sees coming. Back when they used to do mostly squashes on TV people would comment on the generic look of jobbers and how they give away the result before match even starts. That formula seems to have been replaced by the "TV formula" and I'm not sure which is worse. Of course none of this would matter if I hadn't spent ten or more years watching commercial free VHS/DVDs. Commercial releases/bootlegs really spoiled me for watching much televised/"live" wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I love Cole's commercial voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Kofi and Truth are rolling. Can they keep it going, as Raw continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 It does give me a good cue to start fast-forwarding on the dvr. Actually, the whole show is kinda one big cue to fast-forward most weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Really, doesn't this just come down to Kofi being kind of shitty? QFT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Kofi is a later day Evan Karagias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 - Match beginning: after a short back and forth, face team briefly get the upper hand - Heel team takes control, isolates a member of the face team - Member of face team plays Ricky Morton, heel team make continuous tags - Ricky Morton builds momentum, lots of false hot tags - Ricky Morton hits a big move that evens the score, both legal men go for the tag - Heel legal man gets the tag, a split second later Ricky Morton makes the hot tag - The hot tag man cleans house, followed by a short momentum shift back-and-forth - The finish: the face team gets the win or the heel team gets the win This is the exact same sequence which I described in some thread a couple of years ago, which occurred in damn near every indy tag match that I ever called. Back then, I got yelled at and lectured about how this was an effective formula and thus shouldn't be changed. What's different now, to get everyone to agree that this sucks when it's run into the ground? Kofi is a later day Evan Karagias.Hey now, let's not exaggerate things. Karagias was fucking worthless, to the point where he had shittier matches with Madusa than Ed Ferrera did. Kofi is more like a latter day Rob Van Dam: charismatic, appealing to the live crowds, very athletic, but tends to do the same stuff in every match and often sets up his spots in a rather contrived manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Kofi works even lighter than Karagias I've stayed out of this thread because I said my piece in that thread you referenced Jingus, but I generally don't want to see tag formula fucked with, like it, think it works well for a reason and don't know of any alternative model that could be consistently worked as effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I agree that the formula works when done right with slight variations on it. It's kinda like how verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/etc has worked for popular music. It's just that in WWE right now, the chords to every song are exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Faulconer Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Definitely. If WWE ran my iPod every song would not only have the same structure but also have the same volume, musical arrangement and every vocal would be sung at the same key by an unidentifiable androgynous singer. There is no point in using "shuffle" at all. I feel that way when I listen to too many songs that are produced by the same person. Even though I like the Wall of Sound or Motown style I can really ruin those songs for my ears when I sense too much of a pattern. I can listen to most of the Phil Spector Back to Mono anthology over a certain period that allows me to hear the sixty songs on the compilation. The comparison falls apart when I can't see myself watching sixty WWE tag matches or TV matches that arc over a commercial break. Then again I can gladly sit through a similarly sized batch of a favourite wrestler of mine, or lucha from one period or another or a promotion and/or period of time in wrestling that I would call a favourite of mine. Sometime in 2006 I gave up on watching all the CMLL I could get my hands on. Their formula became a lot tighter and predictable. Commercial breaks during a seven minute three fall match annoyed me just as much as when WWE does it. Its like the song always says... What might be right for you, may not be right for some. It takes diff'rent strokes to rule the world...or something. WWE rules the world of televised wrestling though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Kofi works even lighter than Karagias I've stayed out of this thread because I said my piece in that thread you referenced Jingus, but I generally don't want to see tag formula fucked with, like it, think it works well for a reason and don't know of any alternative model that could be consistently worked as effectively. Kofi also has the ability to botch a kick or headlock like Karagias did. Though Karagias shittiness was more easily hidden in tag teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Kofi used to be the epitome of a guy I had no strong feelings about one way or another. But being subjected to his tag matches every week for months on end has made him my least favorite guy on the roster by a good margin. In fairness, he's marginally better than Truth in singles matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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