Longevity

[KrisZ]

Flair grew his hair back out when he went to WWF and some strong matches there and then when he went back to WCW from 93-94 he had some strong matches but the cut in 95 happened and the quality trended down except on rare occasions. His series with Savage probably produced his best matches of that era.

[JerryvonKramer]

Are people saying that Flair is like Samson from the Bible? Cut his hair and he's nothing?

[Childs]

Based on yearbook watching, I'd say 1990 was the last year Flair was a top 10 guy in the world. I don't think he was the best that year. He wasn't as good as Dandy or Satanico, and I'm not even sure I'd put him above Bobby Eaton if we keep it to WCW. But he was still awfully good, at least until he dropped the belt to Sting.

 

In general, I really appreciate the thinking behind this thread. Way too often, we hear that so and so was great for 20 years without any attempt to assess the individual years. The yearbooks and 80s projects have been revelatory in showing that even the best of the best had peaks and valleys.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm seriously surprised we have multiple people touting Flair in 95 and 96. I want to know what these matches are, because I am more than willing to watch them to see if I'm dead wrong in putting 94 as his last "top" year.

[Mad Dog]

To be fair Bock was a really good athlete who could cut a quick pace up until he quit as a full timer in 87...and I have seen 70's Bock that is not as "go, go, go" as that Verne match

Hell, that match he worked in the UWFi with Robinson had a really good pace and he was almost 60 at the time I think.

[Matt D]

To be fair Bock was a really good athlete who could cut a quick pace up until he quit as a full timer in 87...and I have seen 70's Bock that is not as "go, go, go" as that Verne match

Damn it Dylan, your facts are getting in the way of my nice, clear point again.

[goodhelmet]

In general, I really appreciate the thinking behind this thread. Way too often, we hear that so and so was great for 20 years without any attempt to assess the individual years. The yearbooks and 80s projects have been revelatory in showing that even the best of the best had peaks and valleys.

Dylan and I had a pone conversation maybe a year back where we actually talked on the phone for an hour and went year by year for Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio and I think Buddy Rose. We also did it for the family killer to get beyond the idea he was as good as Rey and Eddie in those years.

[goodhelmet]

I'm seriously surprised we have multiple people touting Flair in 95 and 96. I want to know what these matches are, because I am more than willing to watch them to see if I'm dead wrong in putting 94 as his last "top" year.

After I finish reading this forum for updates, I am going to go to the 1995 and 1996 forums to do just that.

[Dylan Waco]

In general, I really appreciate the thinking behind this thread. Way too often, we hear that so and so was great for 20 years without any attempt to assess the individual years. The yearbooks and 80s projects have been revelatory in showing that even the best of the best had peaks and valleys.

Dylan and I had a pone conversation maybe a year back where we actually talked on the phone for an hour and went year by year for Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio and I think Buddy Rose. We also did it for the family killer to get beyond the idea he was as good as Rey and Eddie in those years.

 

 

That should have been taped for a podcast.

 

In any event Buddy is one of those guys who I think had a long peak, though it's not viewed as long. By that I mean that he was at the top of his game/best in the world level guy for about as long as we can document with Flair. It's just he was doing it in Portland

[Matt D]

In some ways isn't that more impressive since he has less of the country's top talent to work with?

[Dylan Waco]

In some ways isn't that more impressive since he has less of the country's top talent to work with?

 

I would argue yes.

 

As I've said before Buddy didn't even have a "Dundee" to him as Lawler. No one even close.

[Chess Knight]

After finishing the 96 yearbook I didn't think Flair was top 75 in the world that year. If I actually looked through the listing and named wrestlers I actually kinda doubt he'd be a top 100. I mean that set is a better collection of matches than any I might ever see again, some stuff from 96 was even left off of it, and 96 is one fucking stacked year in general. Still, Flair had some good matches in 96 and that was it. The Giant matches were fun as hell. I liked all the Savage matches other than the impossibly boring cage match. His match with Eddy on 5/20 is your Flair MOTY and they had another good match at Hog Wild. Bits and piece of good and honestly my favourite promo man of 96, but I think it's clear by that point he wasn't 'THE Ric Flair' any more.

[goodhelmet]

These were the Flair matches on the 1995 yearbook that Loss praised highly. The last tag is more because of the environment than Flair but I wanted it included.

 

Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage, WCW Great American Bash 06/18/95

 

LOSS: Yeah, this blows away Wrestlemania VIII. Blows it out of the water. I don't think Flair still had it on a nightly basis at this point, but in this match, he looked closer to the Flair of old than in most of his other big 90s matches. Excellent performance from him, and Savage's bloody nose adds to this too.

 

 

 

Ric Flair vs. Keiji Muto, NJPW G-1 Climax 08/13/95

 

LOSS: Joined in progress. This was fantastic! Muto's cut from the Chono match is reopened. This is really cool because Flair is playing the total heel instead of his normal, more subdued Japan act. Muto misses a moonsault and clinches his knee, just giving Flair a huge opening. But Flair decides to work the cut instead, which I think worked out way better. Flair throws some outstanding punches and eventually gets back to the knee before locking in the figure four. Muto's blood covered face while selling the figure four is quite the visual. I love how into the reversal the New Japan crowd gets -- yet another example of '95 New Japan reminding me of JCP. Excellent, excellent, excellent. I don't know how the whole match will look, but now I want to see it, because this was lots of fun, and Flair looked great! I kept looking for Flair scooting in for Muto's moonsault like jdw has talked about, but saw no such thing.

 

 

 

Ric Flair vs. Arn Anderson, WCW Fall Brawl 09/17/95

 

LOSS: Every time I watch this, I expect to suddenly not like it anymore, considering the criticism this match gets at times. Then I watch it, see that this match is awesome, and realize that I was right all along!

 

 

 

Ric Flair & Sting vs. Arn Anderson & Brian Pillman, WCW Halloween Havoc 10/29/95

 

LOSS: I've seen this a million times. It's still great to watch as a Flair performance ("Come on, Stinger! I'm here!"), and it still makes no sense (Why does Flair need to turn on Sting? Why not just reunite the Horsemen? Not sure what he gained from it ...) Anyway, I understand Sting's frustration. And it's also interesting that Flair complained on his shoot that Flair vs Arn was cut short, when it was in the WON at the time that Flair was insistent on turning heel again while WCW wanted him to stay a babyface because he was so over (which he was).

 

 

 

Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage, WCW Monday Nitro 12/25/95

 

LOSS: These two work their asses off here and have a much better match than I expected they would. I like Flair taking it to the mat and doing the hammerlock pinning combo. He's also pretty aggressive with the punches and chops and the Jimmy Hart interference spots work well, and the post-match stuff with Sting and Luger was really fun and set up Starrcade really well.

 

 

 

Hulk Hogan & Sting vs. Ric Flair & Arn Anderson, WCW Monday Nitro 12/11/95

 

LOSS: This is awesome! Hogan gets possibly the biggest heel heat of anyone on the entire yearbook -- coming out to LOUD boos, a "Hogan sucks" chant and fans ripping up his merchandise on camera! This is a pretty good match, but I can't get over the crazy crowd! Luger racking Hogan on the outside gets a big babyface pop. I guess in old NWA country, with Flair, Arn and Luger all against him, and Sting as a partner that is annoyed by him, he didn't have a chance, but it's still funny. The hot tag to Hogan gets absolutely no pop, and the reaction to the Hulk Up makes me wonder if we're going to see a riot. The post-match is good, with Pillman going after Sting and Luger making the save but letting Hogan fall by the wayside. Savage gets in Sting's face and gets punched for it! The crowd is totally on his side. Sting and Savage seem to be working out their issue and the crowd is reacting strongly, but Hogan is just KILLING this. Surreal all around, and probably one of the biggest must-sees on any yearbook.

[KrisZ]

Rise of nWo = end of Flair as a high end guy.

[Dylan Waco]

After finishing the 96 yearbook I didn't think Flair was top 75 in the world that year. If I actually looked through the listing and named wrestlers I actually kinda doubt he'd be a top 100. I mean that set is a better collection of matches than any I might ever see again, some stuff from 96 was even left off of it, and 96 is one fucking stacked year in general. Still, Flair had some good matches in 96 and that was it. The Giant matches were fun as hell. I liked all the Savage matches other than the impossibly boring cage match. His match with Eddy on 5/20 is your Flair MOTY and they had another good match at Hog Wild. Bits and piece of good and honestly my favourite promo man of 96, but I think it's clear by that point he wasn't 'THE Ric Flair' any more.

 

Man I think that Eddie match is overrated as fuck. I'm not saying it's a bad match, but it sort of reminds me of the Bret match from Souled Out 98 in that it's two guys who are all time greats and it goes pretty long so you expect it to be something special and while it's not bad it's just really there. Maybe I should watch it again

[El-P]

After finishing the 96 yearbook I didn't think Flair was top 75 in the world that year. If I actually looked through the listing and named wrestlers I actually kinda doubt he'd be a top 100. I mean that set is a better collection of matches than any I might ever see again, some stuff from 96 was even left off of it, and 96 is one fucking stacked year in general. Still, Flair had some good matches in 96 and that was it. The Giant matches were fun as hell. I liked all the Savage matches other than the impossibly boring cage match. His match with Eddy on 5/20 is your Flair MOTY and they had another good match at Hog Wild. Bits and piece of good and honestly my favourite promo man of 96, but I think it's clear by that point he wasn't 'THE Ric Flair' any more.

 

Man I think that Eddie match is overrated as fuck. I'm not saying it's a bad match, but it sort of reminds me of the Bret match from Souled Out 98 in that it's two guys who are all time greats and it goes pretty long so you expect it to be something special and while it's not bad it's just really there. Maybe I should watch it again

 

Having watched the Bret match a few years back, this is a something I find perfectly good. But I didn't expect anything special at this point from Flair either, so maybe that's why I'm happy with the match as it is.

 

On the Eddie match, it's a totally different story, to me it looked like a style clash and big time generation gap between two workers who just can't work well together. Flair is doing old man Flair stuff (meaning : same Flair spots he was always doing, only in a slower, less athletical way) while Eddie was drenched into his own Japanese/Lucha-infused cruiserweight style, and it just didn't click at all. I guess both would be to blame here, although it's obvious at this point Eddie was a pretty terrfic worker while Flair was simply a "fun veteran". And they didn't find a way to make it work together. I would guess Eddie later in his career would have found a way.

 

I think anyone expecting automatic great matches from Flair after 1993/4 just because he's Flair is fooling himself. I remember mostly really enjoying Flair in 1996, but by no mean he was a great worker anymore at this point. I'm eager to revisit that period for many different reasons, but I would be surprised if my opinion on Flair would change much.

[Loss]

I would argue that Misawa's run as best in the world or close to it was at least as long as Flair's, and he did it when the worldwide standard of work was higher.

Was Misawa a consensus pick that was definitely better than Kawada and Kobashi in each of those years? Also, I would disagree that the worldwide standard of work was higher in the 90s than in the 80s. Wrestling moves were more advanced, but that's really it. If anything, wrestling was dumbed down from the 80s. Had wrestling not changed, a guy like Bret Hart would have been traveling to All Japan to defend the NWA title, with everyone involved needing to figure out how to have great matches with each other.

[NintendoLogic]

Was Misawa a consensus pick that was definitely better than Kawada and Kobashi in each of those years?

 

Which is why I said "or close to it." With a topic like this, absolute standing is more important than relative standing. To put it in numerical terms, suppose Flair was a 90 for most of the 80s with no one else scoring higher than 85. If Misawa was a 95 for most of the 90s, I don't think he should be penalized if Kawada or Kobashi scored a 97 a couple of years.

 

Also, I would disagree that the worldwide standard of work was higher in the 90s than in the 80s. Wrestling moves were more advanced, but that's really it. If anything, wrestling was dumbed down from the 80s. Had wrestling not changed, a guy like Bret Hart would have been traveling to All Japan to defend the NWA title, with everyone involved needing to figure out how to have great matches with each other.

I don't see this. Virtually every promotion was better from an in-ring standpoint in the 90s than in the 80s. All Japan was better. WWF was way better. New Japan was probably better. AJW was better. CMLL was most likely better, but there are footage availability issues. 90s WCW and 80s JCP are close to equal. About the only promotion that was clearly better in the 80s was Memphis. Granted, you have promotions like Mid-South that were no longer extant in the 90s, but I don't think that's nearly enough to tip the scales in favor of the 80s.

[goodhelmet]

That's a personal taste because I have worked on tons of 90s yearbooks and tons of 80s projects and I will take 80s wrestling over 90s wrestling every single day of the week. I think there was a topic here before about which decade you prefer. Maybe you need to bump that topic.

[NintendoLogic]

That's a personal taste

Well, yeah. Most things in these types of discussions are.

 

Also, for what it's worth, there seemed to be a consensus a while back that 1988 to 1997 was the best ten-year stretch in wrestling history.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=14200

[goodhelmet]

I'll have to dig out the thread about what decade people prefer. Also, such a small, small sampling of posters in that thread. Like 8 people were in the discussion.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't see this. Virtually every promotion was better from an in-ring standpoint in the 90s than in the 80s. All Japan was better. WWF was way better. New Japan was probably better. AJW was better. CMLL was most likely better, but there are footage availability issues. 90s WCW and 80s JCP are close to equal. About the only promotion that was clearly better in the 80s was Memphis. Granted, you have promotions like Mid-South that were no longer extant in the 90s, but I don't think that's nearly enough to tip the scales in favor of the 80s.

AJW being better is arguable, though I haven't watched much Joshi in years and am in no position to make a detailed argument myself. 80's JCP is better than 90's WCW and I'm a guy who grew up on 90's WCW. I actually don't even think it's all that close. We don't know about Lucha, but we do know there is plenty of great Lucha from the 80's. Memphis was clearly better in the 80's. Portland was clearly better in the 80's by a massive margin (though you could argue that Portland was better in the 70's and I'd listen to it). Mid-South you mention and is clearly a huge plus for the 80's. There was no AWA in the 90's really so the AWA was clearly better. What we have I would argue Puerto Rico was better in the 80's. Texas wrestling was better in the 80's based on what I've seen. Then there are the myriad of territories that didn't exist in the 90's. I mean if you take indy wrestling from the 90's, ECW, SMW and the USWA do you think it's even close to the equal of 80's territorial wrestling? As a guy who worked on the SMW and ECW Sets, I would say "no fucking way in hell" and I'm about as big a fan of those two promotions as you'll find online.

 

80's wrestling was better in the States in my view. We don't know about Mexico. European wrestling was best in the 70's, but definitely better in the 80's than in the 90's. Japan is arguable, though unlike with the States there were more promotions of note in the 90's so you could give it the edge on that and I wouldn't argue.

 

In any event "virtually every promotion was better in the 90's" is not something I am buying.

[ohtani's jacket]

CMLL had two oustanding years in the 90s -- 1990 and 1997. It also had good years in '91, '92 and '96. We know that it had an excellent year in '89, which is the only semi-complete year we have from the 80s, but it's safe to assume from the '83-88 footage we have along with wrestling magazines and other anecdotal evidence that it was better for a longer and more sustained period than the 90s.

 

A lot of promotions in the 90s peaked for two or three years and then nose dived. AJW may have had better wrestling from '92-94 than the decade prior but it fell off the cliff in a way that 80s AJW never really did despite being bookended by post-boom periods (post-Beauty Pair to open the decade and post-Crush Girls to finish.) All of the Japanese promotions went south in the 90s around the time when Japan really began to feel the crunch of the bubble bursting. The same argument applies for the territories in the States by the end of the 80s, but if wrestling hadn't been reasonably robust by the end of that decade then the so-called 90s peak never would have occurred.

 

I'd also argue that there's a lot of 90s wrestling that hasn't aged as well as 80s wrestling. A lot of it looks dated.

[KrisZ]

I grew up with 80's wrestling and to me it still mostly holds up and at times even better now than then. Almost all the territories would die of course but until more 70's stuff surfaces which it probably won't this is what we have to remember the glory days.

[NintendoLogic]

We could do an exhaustive promotion-by-promotion breakdown that won't change anybody's mind, but what it really boils down to is that I'm just not that big a fan of 80s wrestling.