Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair

[JerryvonKramer]

So why do we never see Bobby Eaton described as "playing the bitch"? Or DiBiase or Rude or Bockwinkel or any other heel you care to name? I agree with Loss that it's most often brought up as a knock on Flair.

 

Case in point: how did this topic come up?

[Guest Andrews]

Underlining sexism coming out...

[ohtani's jacket]

So why do we never see Bobby Eaton described as "playing the bitch"? Or DiBiase or Rude or Bockwinkel or any other heel you care to name? I agree with Loss that it's most often brought up as a knock on Flair.

 

Case in point: how did this topic come up?

Maybe it's a compliment that Flair is synonymous with something that 90% of all heels do.

 

Personally, my biggest problem with Flair is his offence. I wouldn't exactly call him a weak offensive worker, but it always felt like his offence was missing something to me.

[JerryvonKramer]

OJ - I felt that way a bit for quite a long time, but watching so much Flair over the past year or so I've come to appreciate some of his standard spots a bit more:

 

Knee block - don't know if that's the name for it but it's when he takes someone's leg out with the diving chop block shot. This always looks cool.

 

Snap mare --> Knee drop - Flair is never given enough credit for how great his knee drop is, but who else does such a classic knee drop? I like the fact that he almost always sets it up with a snap mare. Gives you that feeling that he's getting into his groove.

 

Shinbreaker - doesn't always bust it out, but it's usually cool when he does.

 

Standing vertical suplex - he holds it and holds it before dropping. Not a bad high spot for the era.

 

Butterfly / double-underhook suplex - only busts it out in certain matches (e.g. in Japan or vs. Steamboat), but when he does it's a reminder that he's a great technical wrestler

 

Reverse knifeedge - so sue me Matt D, I can never get enough of Flair slapping the shit out of someone.

 

Other suplexes - Flair does seem to know every suplex in the book and can occassionally surprise you by throwing one out. What I like about it is the illusion of there being more in his arsenal.

 

-------

 

I've come to appreciate more that Flair's game is all about wearing the opponent out long enough so he can get into a position to get some of the above spots in. It's Rocky vs. Mr. T almost every time. The likes of Sting can Gorilla Press him all night long, but he's backing himself to be able to take the punishment and then take advantage when the time comes.

 

I don't think his offense is particularly more limited than anyone else's from that era. I understand the feeling that "something's missing", but that has gone away for me after seeing Flair in so many different matches and contexts. It's not so much that it's "missing" but that he has stuff in reserve that he only busts out as and when necessary. I like that about him.

[Dylan Waco]

I think peak Flair is a pretty good offensive wrestler, but not a great one. That is hardly a major criticism though. I sometimes think it's easy to pick on him for his offense because when he started to fade as a performer his offense hit the wall first and because he wasn't the dynamic offensive wrestler that his predecessor Race is often credited with being.

[ohtani's jacket]

All good points. I guess it's the wearing down the opponent strategy that doesn't really gel with me.

[Matt D]

Reverse knifeedge - so sue me Matt D, I can never get enough of Flair slapping the shit out of someone.

I want to do a pithy compare/contrast with this and your uncomfortable disdain of Kamala, but I can't be damned. Sorry, Parv. You deserve more effort than that.

[NintendoLogic]

It seems to me that the Flair defenders are trying to have it both ways. If you try to critically examine how he works his matches, they accuse you of singling Flair out when plenty of other guys are guilty of the same things. But if you do liken him to someone else, they insist that what Flair does is totally different.

[Loss]

Where has the latter happened?

[Loss]

I don't understand the hangup over the term "bitch." I mean, "chickenshit" isn't exactly a term of endearment, but we use "chickenshit heel" in neutral or even laudatory terms all the time. As for what playing the bitch entails, it goes beyond selling and bumping big for your opponent. It's acting in a way that makes you come across as a coward or a buffoon.

So it's showing fear? Did anyone really think Flair was scared to death when he begged off? Or was it pretty obviously a mind game to swing the match back in his favor? I hate even having to defend the begging off, because it's not something I'm a fan of. But are you referring to that, or something else entirely?

[BlueGuy]

I don't understand the hangup over the term "bitch." I mean, "chickenshit" isn't exactly a term of endearment, but we use "chickenshit heel" in neutral or even laudatory terms all the time. As for what playing the bitch entails, it goes beyond selling and bumping big for your opponent. It's acting in a way that makes you come across as a coward or a buffoon.

So it's showing fear? Did anyone really think Flair was scared to death when he begged off? Or was it pretty obviously a mind game to swing the match back in his favor? I hate even having to defend the begging off, because it's not something I'm a fan of. But are you referring to that, or something else entirely?

 

It was so obviously a ploy to "sucker" his opponents into a false sense of security. Anyone who doubts that should watch any of his WWF 91-92 matches where he'll beg off into a corner. The face follows him and is met with a swift kick to the midsection allowing Flair to regain control. It was a "strategic" move that fit into the matches and almost always lead somewhere advancing the match.

[ohtani's jacket]

The begging off was only a ploy in the early going. Deeper into a match, he'd oftentimes beg off for real.

[JerryvonKramer]

There is an awesome moment in one of the trilogy matches where Flair is so intense and relentless that Steamboat begs off.

[jdw]

I am completely hung up on the word "bitch". The word is important. And as long as you use the word, I'm going to make an issue of it. The biggest reason is that it's a Flair-unique term.

Hardly unique to Flair. I've even pointed to Savage bitching out by taking cover behind Liz.

 

 

And all it seems to mean is to sell and give opponents offense, which is a standard thing that every wrestler does, especially heels.

Of course it only seems like that if you ignore the examples given in this and the prior threads.

 

 

Do you talk about Jumbo playing the bitch?

Hard to see examples of Jumbo doing it, but I'm opening minded to someone citing some for me to look up.

 

Or Kawada? Or Hansen? Or Liger?

Again, would be interested in examples of them doing it.

 

 

Or the MX?

 

Of course Cornette bitched out.

 

 

At best, it's a backhanded compliment.

This is where you get hung up:

 

It is neither a compliment nor a rip. It is simply a descriptor.

 

Now think back to the Thesz Fans who got all riled up when people pointed out that he played NWA Heel Champion in most of the old footage the exists of him in the era, including stooging, begging, bumping his ass off, taking shortcuts, fouling behind the ref's back and rough housing. Those were simply descriptors of what Lou did.

 

Well... that pissed them off because they had this mental image of Lou "wrestling straight", being a wrestler's wrestler, and not doing any of that entertainment showy stuff.

 

Well... fuck it. The descriptions were accurate. Watch Lou vs Vern, and that's what Lou was: an NWA Heel Champ, and a pretty damn good one when opposite a great babyface like Verne.

 

 

It's not a term that I think anyone would associate with praise, much less as a neutral statement of fact.

I don't really care. Initially people didn't like me saying that Hogan was a pretty damn effective worker in the 80s. It got in the way of their notion that Hogan was a shitty worker, the Anti-Flair with the Mark of the Beast on his forehead, and we can't possibly say anything might be taken as a positive. But...

 

It was a statement of fact. It's impossible to watch Hogan in the mid-80s and not call him effective. Whether one thinks his work is shitty or great is besides the point. The one statement of fact that anyone being objective would agree on is that he was effective in what his job was.

 

Ric Flair liked to sell. He liked to bump. He liked to give his opponents offense. He liked to make his opponents look good. He liked to build to really hot nearfalls where people thought he was about to lose.

So did Misawa, and so did Kobashi.

 

You're looking far too tunnel vision on it: all forms of selling and bumping doesn't mean bitching, anymore than all forms of working on top mean Hulking Up or Super Shawn Comebacks~!

 

 

"Playing the bitch" is an implication that he's doing something other top heels don't do, and that doing it is wrong, no matter how many times you say that it isn't.

How many times must I say that Ric was a great, great, great worker?

 

Black Sabbath is a different type of band than Yes. I'm sure there are people out there who think that both were great at their peak. But they were clearly different.

 

Not all "heels" are alike. Hell, wrestling would suck if they all were.

 

I could bring Vader into this argument, who may have taken more bumps (way more if you add in Race's bumps) per match at his peak than Flair did. Did Vader play the bitch too? If not, why not? If so, have you ever used that term to describe his act?

Vader didn't play stooging bitch heel. I think you know that watching Flair-Sting and Vader-Sting you were seeing two very different styles of heels opposite of Sting. Unless you're just intentionally burying your head in the sand thinking that All Heels Are Alike.

 

Loss: I don't think you can't see that heels are different. :/

 

John

[jdw]

Men At Work had two hit albums.

You are correct, and two #1's in this country. I should have said Nena, but thought that would go over everyone's head.

 

John

[jdw]

And as much as I'm sure it seems the opposite is true, the purpose of me being so adamant about this is not to keep defending Flair. I'm a fan, but I have fatigue on going through arguments like these. Still, when Flair is held to a critical standard that no one else is, I'm going to speak up when I think those criticisms aren't being fairly applied to other wrestlers.

Good lord... Flair is hardly held to a critical standard. He's the GOAT of GOATS, and has been for close to 30 years. For almost all of that, Flair's GOATdom has been held to *no* critical standards, and simply been taken on faith because it was on the tablets handed by God to Mosezler.

 

Even people like me who've pointed out him doing the same stupid shit that mere Mortal Wrestlers get knocked left and right for, we have to bend over backwards to make sure that people know we still think Ric is a great, great, great worker. Then shake out heads when people think we hate Ric.

 

It's next to impossible to apply critical thinking to Flair like we do everyone else because fans of Flair get so defensive about him being treated like any other wrestler. You're pretty much 180 degrees the opposite of Flair Analysis over the past 30 years.

[jdw]

So why do we never see Bobby Eaton described as "playing the bitch"?

Because the guy on the outside did the bitching.

 

Or DiBiase

I haven't watched a ton of Ted's heel work outside of the WWF. It didn't really look like he played bitch too much in the WWF. He really didn't even do a ton of stooging in the WWF... not saying he did zero, but that wasn't really his character.

 

or Rude

Rude would stooge and bump his ass off. I'll have to keep an eye out for bitching next time I watch him.

 

 

or Bockwinkel

Some AWA expert would have to chime in. Someone might want to ask KHawk if he thought Bock was the same type of heel that Flair was.

 

Case in point: how did this topic come up?

In this thread?

 

[jdw]

Page 20 if the mirror reference isn't obvious enough.

[Matt D]

I'm a bit disappointed you didn't photoshop page 20 into the mirror. backwards.

[Loss]

I am completely hung up on the word "bitch". The word is important. And as long as you use the word, I'm going to make an issue of it. The biggest reason is that it's a Flair-unique term.

Hardly unique to Flair. I've even pointed to Savage bitching out by taking cover behind Liz.

That's great. I'm glad an example of another heel doing it is mentioned here.

 

And all it seems to mean is to sell and give opponents offense, which is a standard thing that every wrestler does, especially heels.

Of course it only seems like that if you ignore the examples given in this and the prior threads.

What have I ignored? If there's a point being raised that I'm not responding to, let me know what it is, and I will respond to it, because I sure don't see it. The begging off is what I've seen referenced here and I've addressed that a few times.

 

Do you talk about Jumbo playing the bitch?

Hard to see examples of Jumbo doing it, but I'm opening minded to someone citing some for me to look up.

Well, I mentioned the apron KO that set off the entire Misawa/Jumbo feud. It was a forearm from the apron to the floor. It's a spot that happens all the time in tag matches, especially in All Japan. Jumbo did it to Misawa earlier in the same match, and it was a payback spot. Misawa sent a message by hitting him back much harder. Jumbo sold it for a few minutes and then lost his temper and got in a scuffle with Misawa mid-match.

 

It was a great angle that was executed really well and led to a two-year feud, which ultimately gave way to Misawa being The Man until he left the company. It's definitely something I'd praise. I wouldn't call it playing the bitch. I wouldn't call Flair getting slammed off the top or escaping with his title by the skin of his teeth playing the bitch either.

 

Maybe some of the finishes to Flair's matches made him look weak, like the reverse decisions after ref bumps, or disqualification wins over guys he should have beaten cleanly. But that's more about booking than ring work.

 

Or the MX?

 

Of course Cornette bitched out.

So did the MX, if we're defining it the way I think we are. Eaton and Lane ran into each other in heel miscommunication spots all the time and would occasionally work a spot where they shoved each other and briefly teased dissension over it. There's also the Stan Lane/Tracy Smothers karate fight at the Bash that ends with Lane getting embarrassed after arrogantly challenging Smothers to a karate fight.

 

At best, it's a backhanded compliment.

This is where you get hung up:

 

It is neither a compliment nor a rip. It is simply a descriptor.

 

Now think back to the Thesz Fans who got all riled up when people pointed out that he played NWA Heel Champion in most of the old footage the exists of him in the era, including stooging, begging, bumping his ass off, taking shortcuts, fouling behind the ref's back and rough housing. Those were simply descriptors of what Lou did.

 

Well... that pissed them off because they had this mental image of Lou "wrestling straight", being a wrestler's wrestler, and not doing any of that entertainment showy stuff.

 

Well... fuck it. The descriptions were accurate. Watch Lou vs Vern, and that's what Lou was: an NWA Heel Champ, and a pretty damn good one when opposite a great babyface like Verne.

I don't have any false notions of Flair "wrestling straight" and not doing any of that "entertainment showy stuff". I don't think that's what this is about.

 

It's not a term that I think anyone would associate with praise, much less as a neutral statement of fact.

I don't really care. Initially people didn't like me saying that Hogan was a pretty damn effective worker in the 80s. It got in the way of their notion that Hogan was a shitty worker, the Anti-Flair with the Mark of the Beast on his forehead, and we can't possibly say anything might be taken as a positive. But...

 

It was a statement of fact. It's impossible to watch Hogan in the mid-80s and not call him effective. Whether one thinks his work is shitty or great is besides the point. The one statement of fact that anyone being objective would agree on is that he was effective in what his job was.

Yes to all of this, but I don't know what that has to do with this.

 

Ric Flair liked to sell. He liked to bump. He liked to give his opponents offense. He liked to make his opponents look good. He liked to build to really hot nearfalls where people thought he was about to lose.

So did Misawa, and so did Kobashi.

 

You're looking far too tunnel vision on it: all forms of selling and bumping doesn't mean bitching, anymore than all forms of working on top mean Hulking Up or Super Shawn Comebacks~!

The example cited was that Flair got three moves in during the Garvin match, with Garvin taking the rest of it. The other example cited was him begging off, which I addressed.

 

So the point on the Garvin match was that Ric Flair was playing the bitch because he gave Garvin so much of the match, right? Or am I missing something? If you would call that playing the bitch, would that mean it's a matter of giving opponents offense? Isn't that what I've been asking this whole time? Is it about the amount of offense given?

 

"Playing the bitch" is an implication that he's doing something other top heels don't do, and that doing it is wrong, no matter how many times you say that it isn't.

How many times must I say that Ric was a great, great, great worker?

 

Black Sabbath is a different type of band than Yes. I'm sure there are people out there who think that both were great at their peak. But they were clearly different.

 

Not all "heels" are alike. Hell, wrestling would suck if they all were.

Yes, I know you think of Flair as a great worker. This is about me trying to understand what "playing the bitch" means, and how it differs from giving offense to opponents and selling for them. Nintendo Logic mentioned that can be done without looking like a coward or buffoon. I agree. So what did Flair do that made him look like a coward or buffoon? The examples mentioned so far seem to be that ... he gave his opponents a lot of offense and sold for them.

 

I could bring Vader into this argument, who may have taken more bumps (way more if you add in Race's bumps) per match at his peak than Flair did. Did Vader play the bitch too? If not, why not? If so, have you ever used that term to describe his act?

Vader didn't play stooging bitch heel. I think you know that watching Flair-Sting and Vader-Sting you were seeing two very different styles of heels opposite of Sting. Unless you're just intentionally burying your head in the sand thinking that All Heels Are Alike.

 

Loss: I don't think you can't see that heels are different. :/

 

John

 

Vader was a bump machine. Vader also had the sunset flip spot where he'd try the splash to counter it and end up landing on his ass. He loved to roll that spot out. It made his opponent look smart and I guess you could say at that moment, it made him look a little silly. I wouldn't call it playing the bitch. It's a heel thing to do.

 

I'm not sticking my head in the sand about anything.

 

I'm trying to genuinely understand the difference between "playing the bitch" and making an opponent look good through bumping, selling and giving offense. Is it about embarrassment? Isn't losing a match an embarrassment? Is it about looking ineffective? What is it?

[Loss]

And as much as I'm sure it seems the opposite is true, the purpose of me being so adamant about this is not to keep defending Flair. I'm a fan, but I have fatigue on going through arguments like these. Still, when Flair is held to a critical standard that no one else is, I'm going to speak up when I think those criticisms aren't being fairly applied to other wrestlers.

Good lord... Flair is hardly held to a critical standard. He's the GOAT of GOATS, and has been for close to 30 years. For almost all of that, Flair's GOATdom has been held to *no* critical standards, and simply been taken on faith because it was on the tablets handed by God to Mosezler.

 

Even people like me who've pointed out him doing the same stupid shit that mere Mortal Wrestlers get knocked left and right for, we have to bend over backwards to make sure that people know we still think Ric is a great, great, great worker. Then shake out heads when people think we hate Ric.

 

It's next to impossible to apply critical thinking to Flair like we do everyone else because fans of Flair get so defensive about him being treated like any other wrestler. You're pretty much 180 degrees the opposite of Flair Analysis over the past 30 years.

 

This is disingenuous. You know that I'm referring to discussion of Flair in the last decade, and on boards like this, DVDVR, Smarkschoice and tOA.

 

Flair is absolutely held to a higher critical standard. Among some of the things he's been criticized for through the years:

 

* Having signature spots

* Having a general formula and preferred method of working

* Declining with age

 

I don't think you hate Flair anymore. But there are other wrestlers who are talked about as great whose strengths and weaknesses I've never really seen broken down like they have been for Flair.

 

How many of those things could be applied to other wrestlers? How many of those things actually are used to criticize other wrestlers?

 

Does anyone really critically break down Steve Austin? Jushin Liger? Vader? Where can I read those discussions?

[Loss]

If anyone wants to respond to the rest, feel free. If no one does, that's fine. I'll concede that these points aren't being made to attack Flair. I don't think they are. I don't feel like there's an agenda at play here to discredit him, and I've dropped the notion that people are just microtargeting him because they're sick of his reputation and want to come up with something fresh just for the sake of coming up with new things to talk about. I thought that for a long time. I don't think that now. I think more of jdw, Nintendo Logic and Matt D (who has sat out this round, but who I feel is owed that clarification for Round 1) than that.

 

But here's my question.

 

What does "playing the bitch" mean? That, more than anything, is what I'm trying to understand at this point. Opinions on Flair may differ, and I regret even going there again in my last post. If I can walk away with an understanding of the difference between that and selling, bumping and giving offense, that's great.

[Slasher]

If anyone wants to respond to the rest, feel free. If no one does, that's fine. I'll concede that these points aren't being made to attack Flair. I don't think they are. I don't feel like there's an agenda at play here to discredit him, and I've dropped the notion that people are just microtargeting him because they're sick of his reputation and want to come up with something fresh just for the sake of coming up with new things to talk about. I thought that for a long time. I don't think that now. I think more of jdw, Nintendo Logic and Matt D (who has sat out this round, but who I feel is owed that clarification for Round 1) than that.

 

But here's my question.

 

What does "playing the bitch" mean? That, more than anything, is what I'm trying to understand at this point. Opinions on Flair may differ, and I regret even going there again in my last post. If I can walk away with an understanding of the difference between that and selling, bumping and giving offense, that's great.

Not sure what I am saying will necessarily be useful to this, but here is how I see the difference between being a heel that sells and gives to the face and a "bitch" is summed up to two prime examples today- CM Punk and Dolph Ziggler. Punk is never a dominant heel and he is often overpowered but he gets by in his matches by being portrayed as smarter than his opponent. How do you beat a slimy heel who has likely seen everything there is to see in wrestling? Then there's Ziggler... who truly bitches out in every possible way, with his substandard heel gimmick and his bumping being the major two indicators. Hell he is only world champion because someone else destroyed the babyface champion to begin with. I do not think Flair is too much like Ziggler but that is who I identify as a bitch nowadays.

[Johnny Sorrow]

What does "playing the bitch" mean? That, more than anything, is what I'm trying to understand at this point.

[khawk20]

I should have said Nena, but thought that would go over everyone's head.

 

John

It indeed may have floated over people's heads...like balloons...lots and lots of balloons.