JerryvonKramer Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 85 TBS studio match 87 Garvin title win Those matches give that one some context. The problem with Backlund vs. Race for me is that the context is seeing Backlund wrestle dozens of matches in a really dominant way and Race in a really "underneath way", so it was especially crushing to see them go on to have such a predictably one-side match. I don't get what you were trying to say anyway? That I'm just biased for Flair and against Backlund? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 When was the last time Bret was discussed in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 It doesn't matter. It really is all about Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfman Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 It doesn't matter. It really is all about Flair. Yes! Yes! Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think that a 2-1 split is pretty good for this and shows a nice variation of opinion here considering all sorts of factors that can be seen all over this note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Plus their's Parv's 3 faces of Flair which is pretty interesting to read through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 It doesn't matter. It really is all about Flair. So what was the point of making a comparison thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 The thread is a year old. Over time the focus of the discussion was shifted onto a lot of things, primarily how you rate/judge wrestlers and particularly how these judgments apply to Flair. But it started as a straight comparison thread. For evidence of that go back to page one. If you have something to add about Bret add it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 This thread had some awesome stuff in it. "Do be careful! Don't lose any of that stuff. That's concentrated evil." Just can't resist the Time Bandits spot. Actually, it's been a cool thread. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 It's also probably the one Flair/Garvin match that I've never really heard receive a lot of praise in the first place, which makes me wonder why it's the one being focused on. The Superstars on the Superstation match? I always thought that was the one most commonly praised since it was the one most widely available back in the old days. The 1985 Studio Match was liked, but there was so much studio TV that it got lost in it. The Starcade match got saddle with the general bad vibe of Garvin being champ. I don't even remember people talk about the title change for ages. Superstars on the Superstation and Super Towns on the Superstation were sort of the pre-Clash equiv of SNME, with the 1987 one being a major disappointment after how cool the 1986 one was. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Most disappointing thing to me about this thread is that all the long posts Charles and I (and others) made dispelling all of the myths about Flair's matches all being the same and all of that (or did those actually take place in "The Flair formula"). And I still see people peddling the same old shit about Flair as if those conversations, counter examples and so on never took place. That's frustating. It's one area where I feel we didn't make a lot of progress, unlike in other threads where I feel -- no matter how heated things got -- that most of us came out of it months later having learned about something or thought it through more or whatever. Not so here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Most disappointing thing to me about this thread is that all the long posts Charles and I (and others) made dispelling all of the myths about Flair's matches all being the same and all of that (or did those actually take place in "The Flair formula"). And I still see people peddling the same old shit about Flair as if those conversations, counter examples and so on never took place. That's frustating. It's one area where I feel we didn't make a lot of progress, unlike in other threads where I feel -- no matter how heated things got -- that most of us came out of it months later having learned about something or thought it through more or whatever. Not so here. That's most of my problem too, especially the bolded part. I would also encourage people to listen to the Where The Big Boys Play podcasts if you think some of this stuff is just me being an apologist for Flair. On numerous shows, time after time, Chad and Parv discuss a lot of the variation and nuance in Flair's performance, and that includes everything from presenting himself credibly to even having some hierarchy in his offense which Parv has really been a fan of. It's a great listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 There's a Fair to Flair joke in here but you guys are being so earnest that I would hate to make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I don't know why I just pushed off going to lunch for an hour to sift through the wreckage of 26 pages of this thread... But I did pull out of my funk when coming across the Five Shits Of Doom riff. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 The biggest disappointment to me was Loss being unable or unwilling to understand what "playing the bitch" refers to even after it was explained repeatedly in great detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 The biggest disappointment to me was Loss being unable or unwilling to understand what "playing the bitch" refers to even after it was explained repeatedly in great detail. In which posts was it explained? Please link to them. I asked follow up questions about how "playing the bitch" differs from selling, bumping, giving an opponent offense, etc. and they were only answered as something that was already repeatedly explained in great detail. I just re-read this myself and had the exact opposite takeaway. EDIT: I'm not sure why I even posted a response to this, because I think I'm being trolled. But I'll leave it here, what the hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 In which posts was it explained? Please link to them. I asked follow up questions about how "playing the bitch" differs from selling, bumping, giving an opponent offense, etc. and they were only answered as something that was already repeatedly explained in great detail. Pages 20-24. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'd define "playing the bitch" as working in a way that makes oneself appear to be a coward or a fool. When Flair gets thrown off the top, it isn't just Flair giving his opponent some offence/making his opponent look good. He performs the spot in a way that makes himself look foolish, in the way he climbs up the turnbuckle, and in the timing of the spot in the match, usually when the babyface is already in the midst of a comeback. Ditto for the 'run into a clothesline after corner bump' spot. The Flair flop doesn't make you think his opponent must be really impressive to have made him fall down like that. It makes you think Flair is a fool. Another spot that comes to mind when I think of Flair playing the bitch is his reaction when Luger or Sting or whoever would flex in his face. It goes beyond just begging off (and really just begging off from another man's posedown is inordinately cowardly), and crosses over into the ridiculous. Lots of heels do bitching, but I think it has become so associated with Flair just because he had so many signature 'playing the bitch' spots. I don't think anyone ever had the impression that Flair was a fool. Seriously ? Flair going to the tope rope only to get thrown out every damn time (as a heel at least), Flair choping no-selling Sting or Luger with him looking like a complete idiot and begging off like a clown, Flair bumping for the referee. Seriously ? Come on... ANd I don't even talk about the entire figure-four deal that John described in details earlier on. I never thought it made his opponent look technically sound to the point he could reverse the dreaded hold applied by the master, it only made Ric Flair look like a complete fool. In term of psychology, Flair's use of the figure four was not much different from "you can't powerbomb Kidman", really (which, surprisingly, hasn't annoyed me that much on rewatch). Flair was supposed to be the master, but anyone that was above JTTS level reversed it the exact same way to the exact same result. It didn't make the opponent look specifically good, it made for a fun spot that the crowd loved because Flair looked like a fool and he sold it like a bitch. Flair was the bitch of all bitches, and he was great at it. Well there were these two. One from El-P and one from Yo-Yo's Roomie. Every single thing you cited was about selling, bumping and giving an opponent offense (with the possible exception of a referee shove which you called "offense"), which you swore was not what you meant by "playing the bitch". I was in the process of breaking each thing down, but the quote function was making it too much of a headache, even more than this thread is already a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Gosh, I'm sorry I posted that. I really don't want to re-hash the debate and I should have thought better of it. You can respond if you want, but I'm hoping I can just let this thread be no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Which you took to mean that all selling is bitching. Which I pointed out was being silly. You got to the point where your responses were at this level: 1. Yesterday is a song. 2. Satisfaction is a song. 3. Therefore, Satisfaction and Yesterday are Beatles songs. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 That is not what he said at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 I was just thinking about this. I was just wondering if Bret's status in the eyes of many as an all time great worker will be effected by his awful match at Mania with Vince a few years ago. I don't remember ever seeing a high profile comeback match involving a WWE star that was so terrible. Replies to anticipated responses: - Yes Rock v. Cena wasn't very good, but at least Rock worked hard enough to get blown up and got the match over with the live crowd. - It wasn't just that his opponent was Vince, because people like Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan and even C.M. Punk (when Vince was older) had considerably better matches with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 I was just thinking about this. I was just wondering if Bret's status in the eyes of many as an all time great worker will be effected by his awful match at Mania with Vince a few years ago. I don't remember ever seeing a high profile comeback match involving a WWE star that was so terrible. Replies to anticipated responses: - Yes Rock v. Cena wasn't very good, but at least Rock worked hard enough to get blown up and got the match over with the live crowd. - It wasn't just that his opponent was Vince, because people like Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan and even C.M. Punk (when Vince was older) had considerably better matches with him. The man had suffered from a stroke. He still has damage from the stroke. He couldn't bump. Bret sure as hell wasn't going to work a Lawler match with a ton of schtick. Vince was also older at this point. It doesn't hurt his legacy to me. It makes me feel sad for him to be in the ring at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Yeah, I was going to say. There was so much going on there in that match. If he had pulled off something incredible or even passable given the situation, I would have been impressed, but it's not even the physical elements. I'm probably the biggest proponent on the board that you learn more from what a guy can do when he's 52 than when he's 32, in really how much he understands how pro wrestling works and how good a wrestler he is, but Bret had been through so much and there was so much baggage in that match. I think he mainly wanted to put his family over and give himself and the fans some closure. It's also a case where you assume a lot of the ideas behind it were Vince's and it was sort of a bloated compromise between the two of them to even get him to show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 He suffered a stroke and it was an extended make-good angle / moment. Anyone who views that as a "match" is missing the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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