Where The Big Boys Play #30

[JerryvonKramer]

Thanks once again to Scott and Justin for doing this. And note their upcoming interview with JJ Dillon. We recorded this several days ago and before Clash 4 was uploaded, so we'll do a big comments roundup on the Clash 5 show. Thanks for all your feedback.

 

Also, damn that Starrcade 88 theme is fucking great. I can't decide if it's better than the classic theme or not, but either way it's one of the all-time great bits of wrestling music.

 

Where the Big Boys Play #30 - Starrcade 88: Part 1

 

 

In this special episode, Chad and Parv welcome Scott and Justin for a joint show between Where the Big Boys Play and The Place to Be to review Starrcade 88. Topics include: Scott and Justin's backgrounds as wrestling fans and how they started the podcast, how open are you in your wrestling fandom?, some general talk about AWA, Lyle Alzado update, final thoughts on Nikita Koloff, some talk about the ring announcers Tom Miller, Gary Michael Cappetta and Michael Buffer, NWA finishes vs. WWF finishes (again!), which is the best version of the Midnight Express?, Mike Rotunda's tv title reign, some talk about our various screennames and AOL instant messenger in the 90s, and Justin hypes the P2B's upcoming interview with JJ Dillon.

[Loss]

I still think Starrcade '88 holds up as one of the best PPVs ever. Looking forward to listening to this soon.

[soup23]

I was lower on it than on previous watches, Loss. The middle really dragged for me this time as while the moment for Steiner was good, I didn't really care for the match at all and I was disappointed in Windham/Bam Bam.

[Loss]

I'm not crazy about those matches either, so I can see that. It's been ages since I watched it, so that's going on an old memory.

 

How does Flair/Luger at Starrcade compare to Flair/Luger at Wrestle War '90? I remember the difference between Luger's performance at the Bash and Starrcade being pretty significant.

[soup23]

We go really long on Flair vs. Luger in the second part. It may honestly be the most we have talked about a match so far. I state that going in I was unsure whether I liked the Wrestlewar or Starrcade match the best. After watching the show, it was clear to me that Wrestlewar is the best match they have had. I still assert that but damn, the Starrcade match really lingers with me where I still am thinking about it days later. I think it is a really interesting match in that the beginning of the match we see a Flair that I have never seen before in how he acts and in the end we see viciousness from him that is fairly rare. I also think that there is an argument that Luger should have won here but they did all they could in the match to make Luger look strong in losing. In fact, Luger looks so strong that detracts from the overall match for me because he is just kicking Flair's ass and walking through what Flair throws at him for 85-90% of the match.

 

Also Scott in the analysis is lower on Luger than both Parv and myself but I can't help but agree with a lot of what he says about Luger not being polished still in this match. I don't think he was all the way there as a performer in this match although he was good in this match with his persona and role. I do think he made a steady improvement over the Bash match and that along with Flair being better in the Starrcade match make it better overall. I hope this momentum will continue in 1989 for him.

 

I would rate Luger's performances in the Flair matches as: Bash- solid Starrcade - good Wrestlewar - great Capital Combat - very good/gutsy

[JerryvonKramer]

Overall I think I preferred Clash 4 to Starrcade. I am convinced that Fantastics vs. Gilbert and Simmons tag is a ****1/2 match and is probably the best Crockett match of 88 we've watched for my money -- actually Arn/Tully vs. Luger/Windham from the Clash 1 is probably the best, but I wouldn't put that match too far behind it. Windham/Flair vs. The Midnights is on Clash 4 as well and is probably better than anything from Starrcade. I'm lower on the Luger match than most because I don't like Luger's hulking up and his general babyface performance in it.

 

88 is a real mixed year for Crockett. Arn and Tully were great. The Midnights had a good year. The Fantastics had a good year. Flair had a good year. But Dusty's booking sucked hard for the most part and he was pretty bad in most of his matches that we saw. Steve Williams sucked, and hard. Haven't thought much of Kevin Sullivan. Rotunda was a very boring tv champ. Nikita was terrible. Fucking Paul Jones was still around. And they lost a lot of talent.

 

EDIT: And yeah, part 2 is at least 30 minutes on Flair - Luger, if not longer. I will put it up in a couple of days.

[soup23]

My ranking of the matches we saw in 1988 would be:

 

1. Arn/Tully vs. Windham/Luger

2. Fantastics vs. Midnights Clash

3. Flair vs. Luger Starrcade

4. Fantastics vs. Midnights Bash

5. Flair/Windham vs. Midnights Clash 4

6. Sting vs. Flair Clash 1

7. Gilbert/Simmons vs. Fantastics Clash 4

8. Flair vs. Luger Bash

9. Nikita/Sting vs. Arn/Tully Bash

10. Sting vs. Windham Clash 3

 

Show Rankings are:

1. Clash 1

2. Clash 4

3. Starrcade

4. Bash

5. Clash 2

6. Crockett Cup

7. Bunkhouse Stampede

8. Clash 3

 

Top 4 shows are really good with one of my favorite shows in Clash 1. Last 4 shows are pretty putrid or clipped to hell like Crockett Cup.

[Bigelow34]

Thanks to Chad & Parv for having us on...had a great time talking Starrcade.

[Dylan Waco]

Overall I think I preferred Clash 4 to Starrcade. I am convinced that Fantastics vs. Gilbert and Simmons tag is a ****1/2 match and is probably the best Crockett match of 88 we've watched for my money -- .

I don't think I'd go that high, but like the match a whole lot too Jerry. Granted I'm biased because I was there live, but I think it holds up. I am behind on the show (actually I've hopscotched around and listened to some episodes and missed others), but wanted to let you guys know I've been enjoying every show I've listened to

[soup23]

Thanks for the kind words Dylan.

[goodhelmet]

Shit about 20 minutes into the most recent one and I want to scream at my computer... same old tired AWA sucks motif and Lyle Alzado wasn't a big star? Clearly, this is an age thing.

[Bigelow34]

I thought we gave Alzado some props as a star? That was my intent anyway, but it may have gotten lost in the conversation.

 

Like I said on there, I want to like AWA...I just have not been able to get into the majority of what I have seen. I don't think it sucks, just not my cup of tea.

 

That is me personally though, won't speak for Scott, Chad or Parv.

[soup23]

Will, I don't think you will like some opinions on Luger if you make it that far.

 

Lyle Alzado is clearly an age thing. I think NFL history and legacies does a poor job of exemplifying anyone besides skill positions on offense, and of what I have learned about Alzado's steroid situation, I can understand how they might want to turn a blind eye to him. Still though, LT is a cocaine addict and I certainly know who he is without wrestling connections and Lyle Alzado is someone I have never heard off or taken notice to until a few weeks ago and I watch probably 4-5 hours of football a Sunday on average.

[soup23]

AWA may be an age thing to but I don't know why I can't get into it. I have watched the first 3-4 matches on disc 1 probably 5 times but after Gagne/Bock from Comiskey I start to fade. Having yearbooks to watch doesn't help matters either.

[Dylan Waco]

The beginning of the AWA Set is easily the hardest part of the set to get through and I say that as someone who really likes a lot of that stuff

[goodhelmet]

AWA may be an age thing to but I don't know why I can't get into it. I have watched the first 3-4 matches on disc 1 probably 5 times but after Gagne/Bock from Comiskey I start to fade. Having yearbooks to watch doesn't help matters either.

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the Bock-Gagne match either but the Sheik stuff, the Rose-Somers feud, and the Hennig run are all awesome in my book. Later on, Manny and Wahoo beat the shit out of each other.

[soup23]

Its my pledge to watch it probably after I finish the 1990 yearbook.

 

Will, do you have a modern day comparison for Alzado? Really looking at his stats I really think he resonates more based on his playing style and the teams he played for more than looking at his stat sheet. For instance, I threw out John Abraham on the podcast on a whim and was shocked to see how close their stats align and I wouldn't expect even pretty big football fans to remember Abraham 30 years after he retired.

[BrickHithouse]

Abraham's not a bad comparison, really. Pro Football Reference has Abraham 83rd and Alzado 87th among DE's. In Alzado games I've seen, there are a few where he really stands out, getting into the backfield and screwing things up, others when he kind of disappears. Abraham is more consistent than Alzado and more dangerous every play but is somewhat streaky as well. I'd put Abraham ahead of Alzado but I've seen way more of Abraham's work. Alzado was more of a "personality" so he's remembered by more people that watched back in that day.

 

Both would be solid mid-to-upper midcarders who you could depend on to deliver a decent match, and guys that could be used on main events on occassion. Alzado cut better promos and had more charisma.

[shoe]

Alzado was a big star. He was a bad boy on a team full hoodlums on the Oakland Raiders. If you grew up in that era like I did his name would be on the short list of most remembered DE. The guys you remember from the 80's at that position are Gasteneau, Dent, Ed too tall Jones, and Alzado is in the mix.

[shoe]

I'm also enjoying the show and enjoy hearing your guys takes on the matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

This Lyle Alzado thing is going to run and run I'd like to point out that on the Clash 1 show where he first appears, I do point out that he must have been a reasonably big star to get his own tv show. It would be a shame if Chad becomes known as "that guy who said Lyle Alzado wasn't a star", because I think his contributions to the show and indeed to both the 80s sets and the yearbooks are really good.

 

I am also committed to making it to the end of the AWA set. From my end, I'm not even sure if it's even that hard to get into from what I've seen (didn't like Verne vs. Bock at all, but have liked some other stuff), it's just that the AWA has got shunted down in the mix of stuff to watch. Most weeks I struggle just to watch one JCP show, if I get more time for watching, my tendency has been to go to the 1990 yearbook. Then it's AWA and after that the TNT and Primetime stuff. Just as with All Japan, I won't miss the deadline though and am *really* looking foward to some of the matches coming up in 85, especially those involving Slaughter.

[soup23]

Thanks for the feedback shoe. We always enjoy your comments and perspective as well.

[SteveJRogers]

Mongo McMichael is a glorified Mike Golic!

 

There, that should take some heat off of the Lyle Alzado stuff!

 

Yeah, I kind of agree that the NFL tries to bury the insane nature of it's past with the craziness of the Raiders of Alzado's day, and rather you paid attention to what happened on the field. In Taylor's case though, the man was one of the greats of all-time while Alzado was just a star of his time, not a HOFer by any stretch.

 

Those guys, unless they were Super Bowl heroes, or currently in the limelight as commentators and whatnot tend to fade into obscurity.

 

Speaking of Mongo...or at least people with that name, the guy who played Mongo in Blazing Saddles, Alex Karras died recently, I'm sure many more people know him from his acting career than knew that he played pro football in the 1960s. Then again, the NFL does play hush-hush with the fact that he was kicked out of football for gambling.

[Ricky Jackson]

Funny you mention Karras, because he actually had stronger ties to wrestling than Alzado ever did. He wrestled sporadically in the 50s and 60s during the NFL off season. Most famously, in 1963 he was involved in a match with Dick the Bruiser in Detroit that garnered a lot of publicity at the time, mostly because the two ran an angle prior to the match where the Bruiser showed up at a bar co-owned by Karras and started a worked brawl, which became a big newspaper story the next day. He also played the wrestler-husband of Babe Didrickson in a 70s TV movie of her life.

[shoe]

I'm a big fan of the Starcade 88 show. Having 3 tag bouts to open the show is a bit strange, but they pretty much were forced to via booking. I liked the Windham/Bigelow bout. Though I can see people pov on not liking it, especially with that god awful finish.

 

In regards to the Midnight's feud. It gets started with an incredible angle on the Saturday Night putting

the OMX over as an invading faction who don't even work for the NWA. They leave Cornette all bloody in a white jacket, and destroy Stan and Bobby in the process. If you haven't seen it you should look for it on you tube.With this angle it would be hard to believe it was going to be a one off deal. Crockett had the same feeling about Rose as you did Parv. In 89 he books a loser of the fall leaves town with the intention of Rose leaving. Instead Condrey no shows, Victory is placed in the match and eats the fall because pinning Rose would be too obvious. Rose they keep on as a jobber for a year or 2.