Ranking the US 80s Teams

[Childs]

You really think Bret Hart was a better tag worker than Ricky Morton?

[ohtani's jacket]

I also don't know that it's fair to say that because Ricky Morton wrestled Flair for the title that the WWF tag teams weren't important. Did Morton wrestle Flair out of necessity (challengers) or because he was super over? Why would Vince have run Hogan/Michaels? The roster would have had to have been a lot smaller for that match-up to headline anything.

Morton was very over. Check out the crowd reaction to some of those early angles. Flair also drew 15,000 when Road Warrior Hawk challenged him on the Great American Bash tour in Philly. Vince didn't need to run Hogan/Michaels. Both were babyfaces. Bret vs Savage is really the closest a tag team wrestler got to interacting with the top singles stars in the era, and that only happened one time. The point was that the NWA treated their tag teams as stars on the same level as their singles performers, where in the WWF, they were an isolated division. I'm not saying it's not without its own set of flaws, but I am saying that the NWA would have suffered more from the loss of the Road Warriors or Rock & Roll Express than the WWF would have from the loss of the Hart Foundation or British Bulldogs.

 

I agree that the NWA would have suffered more from the loss of their mainstay tag acts, but I think that had a lot to do with the size of the roster and the pull that New York had in terms of luring guys away. The WWF didn't have quite the same mainstay acts as the Midnight Express or Rock 'n' Roll Express as teams were either coming in and out, breaking up and dissolving or having guys receive a singles push, and in the latter case I think the WWF was much more successful at turning tag performers into singles stars. In the long run, working a program with Flair did very little for Ricky Morton in terms of singles success and nothing for Road Warrior Hawk. In terms of working programs with the top guys, I agree that the tag teams were kept in isolation for the most part (they there were clear affiliations, heel stables, etc.), but the WWF had a much wider net they could cast over their midcard and with big guys they could bring in to to feud with Hogan. I'd also argue that Flair/Morton was a bit more credible than Hogan/Morton equivalent.

 

I tend to think of the WWF tag division being well booked and meaningful up until the end of the steriod era. I think the WWF tag teams were handicapped in many ways, and I don't think many of us like the style, but there was a distinct effort to manage the division and it was treated as important. And hey, the top NWA tag teams had matching outfits too.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm kind of miffed at how anyone could think Bret Hart was a better tag wrestler than Ricky Morton. To be perfectly honest I think Morton is a better worker than Hart period, but that's not an argument that has to be hashed out in this thread. But Hart as better tag worker? I'd like to see the case. What Hart Foundation match is carried by Bret's selling, hope spots, timing, bumping, facial expressions or comebacks? I don't think Gibson is as worthless as some do, but I think he was a much less important part of his team than Neidhart. Yeah Neidhart ground matches to a halt with chinlocks at times, but he as the guy with the personality that allowed the act to get over as much as it did and his big spots had impact and were visually impressive. He presented a good "other" for Bret to work with. Gibson was solid in what he was asked to do, was underrated when called to work heel, and could work FIP himself when asked, but there is no question Morton could have had almost anyone else in his corner and the team still would have been good if not great. With Bret I'm not sure if people even remember the Hart Foundation if the other guy is Brian Blair or Warlord or Danny Davis or whatever random guy you want to plug in.

 

Expanding on the Hart Foundation, I think they had a good look and a good tag dynamic on paper. Everyone talks about how Jimmy Hart in the WWF was kind of irrelevant and he was in comparison to Memphis, but I think he played a huge role in that team getting over as much as they did and of the guys in the team he was clearly the one best at building heat, with Neidhart second and Bret last. But in terms of producing great matches? Well where are they? I'm not saying they don't have ANY, but they definitely don't have MANY and when I was going through WWF 80's wrestling over the Summer with Will, Phil and my brother (Exposer) I think it was clear that they didn't even stand out when looking solely at the WWF. They were better than the Bees and maybe The Bulldogs. Strike Force, Islanders, Dream Team, Moondogs all looked considerably better. Actually The Moondogs might be a top ten team, though you have to pick the pairing and I'm not motivated to go back and look at the variety of guys who worked under that gimmick and who worked what matches at the moment. Islanders probably are a top ten team and pretty much outclassed the HF both as face and heels.

 

The wild card is the Rougeau's. I've shit on them in the past at DVDVR and sort of feel bad about it now because watching the Montreal footage their stock as a unit really goes up. In particular Ray is a very good worker and I think they have enough WWF meat where if you are looking big picture they are better than the Hart's too as their face work in Montreal is really outstanding.

 

Actually how/if we should include Canadian teams in this is another interesting discussion. I am not sure Bobby Bass/Goldie Rodgers made tape more than once, but when they did they put in an outstanding performance v. The Bulldogs. Makhan Singh/Jerry Morrow were a very good unit - good at building heat, pretty good offense, good heel tactics, sound psychology, neat dichotomy in terms of what they brought to a match - I'm not even close to done with watching Stampede, but on the surface level I could see them being better than most WWF tag teams from the era. Bruce Hart/Brian Pillman version of Badd Company were fun promos, had a good look and had some good matches. Yes Pillman was green as grass and Bruce was an asshole, but for reckless, spotty guys from Calgary territory, you could argue they are superior to The Bulldogs. Pierre Lefevbre was a very good tag worker with both Sailor White and Frenchy Martin. Much better than Bret as a tag worker in all honesty. And those teams were legitimately good though there is not a ton of footage. Still Martin/Lefevbre - in terms of rough mechanics and team dynamic - are as good or better than a lot of the vaunted WWF tag teams.

[tomk]

Canadian teams

Outside of match with Rogeaus, how much Garvin brother footage is there?

[thebrainfollower]

I consider the Harts more fun for me to watch than the Rock and Roll Express. Is Bret a better tag team wrestler than Ricky Morton? No probably not but the Harts are a better team overall. It would be like if you paired Ricky with El Gigante and then tried to make the argument they were a great team cause of Ricky (and no Robert's nowhere near that bad but I genuinely think he's average at best) If I was held at gunpoint and forced to rate guys out of a 10 as tag workers I'd put Neidhart a 7 and Bret an eight. Ricky at a 9 and Robert around 5 or so. But I genuinely prefer 80's WWF to 80's JCP stuff when I choose what to watch from that decade. It's what I grew up with and I prefer the style. That's just a personal preference.

 

Plus nobody ever nearly got killed being on the giving end of Bret Hart's selling (one of my major major hates of 80's and older southern wrestling was the fact that the audience was a physical threat to the performers at times. That is 100 percent unacceptable to me and morally deplorable. Same thing was true in the WWWF for Pedro's opponents. Say what you will about Vince McMahon but he brought that nonsense to an end. I'm a stage actor and if some moron ever pulled a knife on me during a show I'm not sure what I'd do.

[Dylan Waco]

Canadian teams

Outside of match with Rogeaus, how much Garvin brother footage is there?

 

Not very much, which is too bad because they are great in those matches.

 

Really I want to see more Sweet Daddy Siki/Pretty Boy Chuck Sims matches as I suspect they are better than most WWF tag teams as well, but we only have one match to go on.

[Dylan Waco]

I consider the Harts more fun for me to watch than the Rock and Roll Express. Is Bret a better tag team wrestler than Ricky Morton? No probably not but the Harts are a better team overall. It would be like if you paired Ricky with El Gigante and then tried to make the argument they were a great team cause of Ricky (and no Robert's nowhere near that bad but I genuinely think he's average at best) If I was held at gunpoint and forced to rate guys out of a 10 as tag workers I'd put Neidhart a 7 and Bret an eight. Ricky at a 9 and Robert around 5 or so. But I genuinely prefer 80's WWF to 80's JCP stuff when I choose what to watch from that decade. It's what I grew up with and I prefer the style. That's just a personal preference.

 

Plus nobody ever nearly got killed being on the giving end of Bret Hart's selling (one of my major major hates of 80's and older southern wrestling was the fact that the audience was a physical threat to the performers at times. That is 100 percent unacceptable to me and morally deplorable. Same thing was true in the WWWF for Pedro's opponents. Say what you will about Vince McMahon but he brought that nonsense to an end. I'm a stage actor and if some moron ever pulled a knife on me during a show I'm not sure what I'd do.

Not sure what this has to do with who the better team was. In fact most of the major riots in wrestling history were North of the Mason-Dixon. Even among lesser known events, something like the finish of Blackwell/Adnan v. Mad Dog/Baron with Verne getting destroyed led to a crazy environment that was worse than anything I have seen on a Crockett show.

 

Setting aside what is bolded I want to know what you prefer about the WWF style.

[ohtani's jacket]

The Bulldogs were way more exciting than the Hart Foundation. The Killer Bees were fucking awful.

[JerryvonKramer]

BTW off topic but is there a proper place to introduce yourself on this forum? I got in today and feel weird not at least doing so somewhere.

Welcome to the forum buddy.

[thebrainfollower]

Also I should add my opinion of the Rock and Roll Express is probably massively tainted by the fact that I saw them live exactly once, at the 1993 Survivor Series. I'm sure if you sat them down and asked them what the least interested crowd they ever performed in front of in North America was, that one would be the first choice.

[Dylan Waco]

The Bulldogs were way more exciting than the Hart Foundation. The Killer Bees were fucking awful.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the Bulldogs were more exciting. Not sure that makes them the better team though

[Loss]

Also I should add my opinion of the Rock and Roll Express is probably massively tainted by the fact that I saw them live exactly once, at the 1993 Survivor Series. I'm sure if you sat them down and asked them what the least interested crowd they ever performed in front of in North America was, that one would be the first choice.

It probably would be. It's a shame, as the Rock & Rolls and Bodies gave them a heck of a show.

 

I respect that you prefer WWF tags because it's what you grew up watching. It's a perfectly valid reason to like something better than something else. Thanks for saying that.

[Dylan Waco]

When did Sting/Luger team in the 80's?

 

For short lived teams Bock/Saito were awfully good, to the point where they are a team that I suspect would have been all time great level if they had more work under their belts.

 

Doing a top ten is tough because of the whole peak v. longevity thing.

[JerryvonKramer]

When did Sting/Luger team in the 80's?

Crockett Cup 88

 

I keep on getting confused about the awesome match against Arn and Tully from Clash 1 but Luger's partner is Windham there. Keep getting it mixed up.

[Dylan Waco]

When did the State Patrol debut? This s a mild troll of tom, but I'm curious how he ranks them in relation to a team like Demolition or The Hart Foundation

[thebrainfollower]

I'd agree watching it back on tape it's a good match, but it's really hard for a live crowd (and especially for kids) to get behind someone you've never heard of or seen before. Virtually every newcomer to the WWF got some sort of introduction, vignettes, whatever, but in this instance I don't recall anything other than the match being announced. Add to that a burnt out crowd over that way way too long Harts-Knights match (with five out of eight guys being people no one cared about) and the R and R were behind a massive eight ball. Plus it was just a one shot deal and the WWF had no interest in bringing them in full time really.

 

Thinking it over I did see them live again in the early attitude era as part of the NWA angle but that sure as heck didn't help their case any.

 

And yeah Bulldogs were more exciting than the Harts and probably better in their prime but as US workers their prime was what, a year and 2/3 or so? As US workers it would be their WWF debut to Dynamite's injury right? After that I would say the Harts surpassed them.

 

And yeah I should preface all my opinions are purely subjective. I would never claim to be enough of an expert on anyone to offer a truly objective view, even if I thought such a thing was really possible on any wrestlers with maybe the exception of the one wrestler I know I've seen every televised match of (who shall not be named due to fear of mockery)

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm having a hard time ranking the WWF teams. Did The Hart Foundation ever have a match better than Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team on SNME? I think I'd probably put the Summerslam match with Arn and Tully a shade behind that.

[Dylan Waco]

There are Harts v. Islanders matches where Islanders carried them to really good bouts. Best HF performance I recall is v. Killer Bees.

[shoe]

When did Sting/Luger team in the 80's?

Crockett Cup 88

 

I keep on getting confused about the awesome match against Arn and Tully from Clash 1 but Luger's partner is Windham there. Keep getting it mixed up.

 

 

They also worked the Road Warriors on the last Main Event show of 88.

[BrickHithouse]

I'm definitely a "WWF guy", but always felt as a kid watching both promotions in the 80's that Crockett teams were painting with oils while WWF teams were scribbling on walls with Crayola. That might be a little harsh, but after rewatching a ton of WWF over the past 3 years, nothing really changed that opinion for me.

 

Establishing that Crockett teams are the top of my list, I can't decide who the #1 is. Tully/Arn or Midnight Express. Then which version of MX?

 

If we're allowed to consider managers a part of the team, I'd go with either version of MX over Tully/Arn, but not by much. The constant swirl of activity that comes with every Express match, supplied by Cornette's tireless work around ringside would probably lock them up as my #1. That trumps JJ with the tip of his glasses in his mouth, nodding approvingly in the corner.

 

And it stops there for me. I'd have to rewatch a ton more Crockett to get a better foothold on things.

[shoe]

There are Harts v. Islanders matches where Islanders carried them to really good bouts. Best HF performance I recall is v. Killer Bees.

The one on the Bret DVD was very good.

[Dylan Waco]

There are Harts v. Islanders matches where Islanders carried them to really good bouts. Best HF performance I recall is v. Killer Bees.

The one on the Bret DVD was very good.

 

 

That's the Bees match I'm talking about. Very good match and the best performance I can remember seeing from the HF. They may have had better matches, but none where they looked that good from bell-to-bell.

 

Top five in no particular order at the moment would be Arn/Tully, Lane/Eaton, Eaton/Condrey, Fabs and RnR's. Rose/Somers might be my numbers six and would be higher if they had more than a year. Rockers and High Flyers would also make my top ten.

[rzombie1988]

I see another Demolition discussion coming along...

[Ricky Jackson]

I would never claim to be enough of an expert on anyone to offer a truly objective view, even if I thought such a thing was really possible on any wrestlers with maybe the exception of the one wrestler I know I've seen every televised match of (who shall not be named due to fear of mockery)

OK brain, as part of your initiation to this board you have to reveal the name. I'm guessing the Ultimate Warrior.

 

As a 9 year old in 1986 my # 1 team was the Bulldogs. As a 35 year old in 2013 my # 1 team for the 80s is the Rockers. And yes, I'm a "WWF guy". I'll get around to watching a substantial amount of JCP someday and probably have a new # 1 by the time I'm 50.

[shoe]

There are Harts v. Islanders matches where Islanders carried them to really good bouts. Best HF performance I recall is v. Killer Bees.

The one on the Bret DVD was very good.

 

 

That's the Bees match I'm talking about. Very good match and the best performance I can remember seeing from the HF. They may have had better matches, but none where they looked that good from bell-to-bell.

 

Top five in no particular order at the moment would be Arn/Tully, Lane/Eaton, Eaton/Condrey, Fabs and RnR's. Rose/Somers might be my numbers six and would be higher if they had more than a year. Rockers and High Flyers would also make my top ten.

 

I think Bret also discusses this in his book. His parents were in the audience for this match. So it's kinda funny that Bret tried even harder because his parents are in the audience.