Chris Benoit

[NintendoLogic]

I've been thinking for a while about Benoit's legacy from strictly an in-ring standpoint. Yes, I know. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? But hear me out.

 

When I got back into wrestling in late 2004, Benoit became my favorite wrestler. Then in 2007. after the, um, unpleasantness happened, I stopped watching wrestling for a few years. Even after I resumed watching, it was a while before I could bring myself to watch his matches again. These days, I don't watch his matches for a different reason: for the most part, they just don't do much for me. Looking back, I find it funny that Benoit was largely exempt from the criticisms that Angle received even though he was guilty of many of the same sins. Wade Keller caught some grief for saying that Benoit's psychology was generally only as strong as his opponent's, but that seems impossible to dispute in retrospect.

 

So where does he rate historically? I wouldn't put him in the top 20, but top 50 seems reasonable.

[goc]

Top 50 what? Canadians? All time wrestlers? He wouldn't have made my top 50 all time before 2007.

[Guest Andrews]

In ring he was AMAZING. Easily one of the top 5 in ring wrestlers ever. He was involved in some of my favourite matches ever (vs Jericho Backlash 2000, Sasuke, NJPW Super J 94, Best of 5 series with Booker T, WCW). Intense, focused, agile, could play for sympathy for his size as well as a very convincing aggressor when it fit. He really was amazing.

[Loss]

Chris Benoit was a great wrestler, but watching yearbooks, he strikes me as a guy whose peak wasn't nearly as long as it was made out to be. I don't think he really started coming into his own until 1994-1995, and by 2000, he was already a step down, even if he was still really good.

[El-P]

I don't think he really started coming into his own until 1994-1995, and by 2000, he was already a step down, even if he was still really good.

Agreed. And he really quickly declined once he got in the WWF.

[JazeUSA]

I'd maybe rate him top 40, but that's just me.

[Guest Andrews]

I don't think he really started coming into his own until 1994-1995, and by 2000, he was already a step down, even if he was still really good.

Agreed. And he really quickly declined once he got in the WWF.

 

But that can be attributed to increased injuries, increased muscle mass and working a different style. I agree though, his prime was 1994 - 2000.

 

Edit: when he came back in 2002, after a few months when he was put in tags to lessen the load, he produced some absolute corkers also for a period of six months before the awkward mid 03 SD period. In particular, Royal Rumble 2003 is a stand out match.

[rzombie1988]

He was great and one of the all time best. He had a nice selection of matches with virtually everyone and was always reliable for something good. Off the top of my head there is his match against Brock, the Wrestlemania Threeway rematch, vs Sasuke, his good stuff with Finlay and Regal from 2005-2006, mostly everything he did with Kurt Angle whether it was teaming with him or going against him and his underrated classic cage match with JBL. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I wish he would have been given a better title run. They seriously had him opening Raw's with La Resistance.

[tomk]

Benoit's psychology was generally only as strong as his opponent's, but that seems impossible to dispute in retrospect.

The matches tend to suggest the opposite.

 

When I watched last years Mania Rock v Cena match I was struck by the degree to which Benoit had influenced the way Us heavyweight wrestling is put together these days.

[NintendoLogic]

Again, Benoit was as responsible as Angle for the development of the mid-2000s WWE workrate style. In their matches together, not only did Benoit not rein in Angle's spottiness, he actively contributed to the atmosphere of one-upmanship.

[ohtani's jacket]

I quit watching the WWF partially because I was disappointed in Benoit's matches after he jumped, but when I went back and caught the stuff I'd missed during the WWF Smarkschoice Poll I thought he ended up adapting well to the WWF style. I'd rather watch his 2006 Smackdown match with Finlay than any of his mid-90s stuff. I don't get the criticism of the Smackdown Six era. After the shitty wrestling we endured during the boom years, you'd think people would've appreciated better television wrestling. Maybe it's a counter reaction to the era being overrated at the time, I don't know.

[goc]

I didn't realize the Smackdown Six era was criticized other than "you can't use this as an argument for Paul Heyman is a genius" because all he really did was take the best workers he had and lump them all in together and give them a lot of time.

[Matt D]

because all he really did was take the best workers he had and lump them all in together and give them a lot of time.

Genius!

[Jimmy Redman]

Considering how seemingly hard a concept that is for anyone else in wrestling to grasp, I'm not so sure it can't be used as an argument for Heyman's genius.

 

On Benoit and Angle and the highspotty style, I think the difference between them is that Benoit at least always brought a level of selling that Angle simply does not possess. Even if Benoit is throwing too many Germans or too many Crossfaces or whatever, he always grounded it with how incredibly good he was at selling, physically, and in the end he had a veneer of grit and toughness that Angle didnt have, even if they had similar pop up/finisher heavy routines if you break them down in that way. Benoit still made things look like a fight more than a dance routine.

[WingedEagle]

Considering how seemingly hard a concept that is for anyone else in wrestling to grasp, I'm not so sure it can't be used as an argument for Heyman's genius.

This. Just because a concept is simple doesn't mean someone doesn't deserve credit for executing it. Especially when countless others failed to do so.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

He was great and one of the all time best. He had a nice selection of matches with virtually everyone and was always reliable for something good. Off the top of my head there is his match against Brock, the Wrestlemania Threeway rematch, vs Sasuke, his good stuff with Finlay and Regal from 2005-2006, mostly everything he did with Kurt Angle whether it was teaming with him or going against him and his underrated classic cage match with JBL. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I wish he would have been given a better title run. They seriously had him opening Raw's with La Resistance.

I'm glad you brought up the Brock match. I'm sure no one agrees with me on the following, but I think it's one of the best worked matches I've ever seen, and what made it so great was Benoit's selling. When I watched that match last year, I realized right then and there just how Benoit is so superior to any worker in WWE right now and by a country mile, and that includes Daniel Bryan. Benoit is easily one of the top all time workers.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think Benoit was anywhere near as good as Bryan. This isn't a post-murder revisionist view for me either. I'm not going to play like I thought Benoit was a poor worker or anything insane like that, but one thing that always bothered me about him as a worker is that I never felt emotionally invested in any of his matches. On the one hand you could say that he had outstanding mechanics, was extremely versatile and did sell very well, but on the other end I don't think he was good at emoting in the ring. At all.

[flyonthewall2983]

I really liked the Kevin Sullivan matches, and his match with Angle in 2003. It's still sore for some people to evaluate his legend, but I think as time goes on his body of work will be more far removed from the aforementioned unpleasantness.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

He was great and one of the all time best. He had a nice selection of matches with virtually everyone and was always reliable for something good. Off the top of my head there is his match against Brock, the Wrestlemania Threeway rematch, vs Sasuke, his good stuff with Finlay and Regal from 2005-2006, mostly everything he did with Kurt Angle whether it was teaming with him or going against him and his underrated classic cage match with JBL. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I wish he would have been given a better title run. They seriously had him opening Raw's with La Resistance.

I'm glad you brought up the Brock match. I'm sure no one agrees with me on the following, but I think it's one of the best worked matches I've ever seen, and what made it so great was Benoit's selling. When I watched that match last year, I realized right then and there just how Benoit is so superior to any worker in WWE right now and by a country mile, and that includes Daniel Bryan. Benoit is easily one of the top all time workers.

 

Yes. Lesnar vs Benoit is one of the best worked matches one can see. I know of a couple of others who feel the same way too.

 

Angle vs Benoit was well structured too but not quite in the same way as Lesnar vs Benoit. Actually, their structure varied in their matches as they were going for different goals each time with Unforgiven and the Rumble match being the strongest. The biggest constant once their main feud started at Mania was the one-upmanship deal which they did exceedingly well. That was their entire base of their feud so it was smart and exciting to show it in the ring. Than they still managed to put together compelling, smart matches.

[Jimmy Redman]

Angle vs Benoit at the Rumble was structured terribly. Well perhaps terrible isnt the right word, but more like, there wasnt any structure at all. It was put together in a completely meaningless and uncompelling way, one of the most egregious examples I've seen of "we do some stuff for 15 minutes, then start kicking out of finishers".

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I don't think Benoit was anywhere near as good as Bryan. This isn't a post-murder revisionist view for me either. I'm not going to play like I thought Benoit was a poor worker or anything insane like that, but one thing that always bothered me about him as a worker is that I never felt emotionally invested in any of his matches. On the one hand you could say that he had outstanding mechanics, was extremely versatile and did sell very well, but on the other end I don't think he was good at emoting in the ring. At all.

What's strange is I felt the exact opposite sentiment, especially in relation to Brock Lesnar v. Chris Benoit. If I had to give a statement of essence to that match, it would be "One man's passion to become world champion." He was a wrestler's wrestler, and it's a powerful feeling to watch him between 2003 and 2004 in his struggle to become a world champion as even fans felt no one deserved it more. It's hilarious to see HHH, for example, try to connect with the audience in similar ways in failing each time. Benoit's style and persona commanded respect from the audience, which is why he got standing ovations. I know you're just expressing opinion, and I'm not claiming that you're wrong since your claim depends on your own experiences anyway, which is neither right nor wrong, but it's strange that your objection to Benoit's work would be based off of that given that the fans felt very much emotionally connected to him upon viewing an intense match of his, whether against Angle or Lesnar. What stood out most about Benoit's match against Lesnar was the amount of real emotional heat in that match in ways that no match in modern WWE can touch outside of a Wrestlemania main event like Cena v. Rock.

[Log]

Benoit's psychology was generally only as strong as his opponent's, but that seems impossible to dispute in retrospect.

The matches tend to suggest the opposite.

 

When I watched last years Mania Rock v Cena match I was struck by the degree to which Benoit had influenced the way Us heavyweight wrestling is put together these days.

 

How so?

[flyonthewall2983]

Angle vs Benoit at the Rumble was structured terribly. Well perhaps terrible isnt the right word, but more like, there wasnt any structure at all. It was put together in a completely meaningless and uncompelling way, one of the most egregious examples I've seen of "we do some stuff for 15 minutes, then start kicking out of finishers".

If I watch it again, maybe. But it was a welcome departure from the sweaty train wreck that was HHH/Steiner.

[Loss]

I don't think Benoit was anywhere near as good as Bryan. This isn't a post-murder revisionist view for me either. I'm not going to play like I thought Benoit was a poor worker or anything insane like that, but one thing that always bothered me about him as a worker is that I never felt emotionally invested in any of his matches. On the one hand you could say that he had outstanding mechanics, was extremely versatile and did sell very well, but on the other end I don't think he was good at emoting in the ring. At all.

What's strange is I felt the exact opposite sentiment, especially in relation to Brock Lesnar v. Chris Benoit. If I had to give a statement of essence to that match, it would be "One man's passion to become world champion." He was a wrestler's wrestler, and it's a powerful feeling to watch him between 2003 and 2004 in his struggle to become a world champion as even fans felt no one deserved it more. It's hilarious to see HHH, for example, try to connect with the audience in similar ways in failing each time. Benoit's style and persona commanded respect from the audience, which is why he got standing ovations. I know you're just expressing opinion, and I'm not claiming that you're wrong since your claim depends on your own experiences anyway, which is neither right nor wrong, but it's strange that your objection to Benoit's work would be based off of that given that the fans felt very much emotionally connected to him upon viewing an intense match of his, whether against Angle or Lesnar. What stood out most about Benoit's match against Lesnar was the amount of real emotional heat in that match in ways that no match in modern WWE can touch outside of a Wrestlemania main event like Cena v. Rock.

 

The standing ovation after Benoit vs Angle at the 2003 Royal Rumble was worked. It was started by plants.

[Jimmy Redman]

That may be so, but I dont think you can deny that there was an emotional hook present for Benoit's championship quest in 2003-04. I experienced it myself and at the time I was a kid who knew nothing about his history or workrate or whatever. But his struggle to win the title after all those years certainly resonated with me, so in that sense I'm with Neil. He wasnt the most emotionally expressive in the ring, but I dont think he was a robot either.