GFOAT

[Grimmas]

I've seen a bunch of talk lately about the GOAT. A lot of names have been thrown around for top 50 lists and such, however I have yet to see a female wrestler's name mentioned.

 

This lead me to two questions:

 

1 - Who is the greatest female wrestler of all time?

2 - Where would they rank in an overall greatest of all time list?

 

I don't have good answers for either. I assume for GOAT the names would be Jaguar, Lioness, Hokuto, Bull, Dump, Devil and Aja Kong. Maybe Sherri Martel? I'm not sure who the best North American would be.

[Loss]

The first person to say The Fabulous Moolah gets banned. I might even come throw eggs on your house.

[Dylan Waco]

I haven't watched, thought or cared about Joshi much in years. Long ago I thought Aja was the best and was in fact a top ten all time worker. Now that feels like a pretty massive stretch, but there is still something about her that I enjoy more than almost any other Joshi workers. Hokuto at her peak was as good as anyone I ever saw, but the peak was really short and I have no clue how that would hold up. I think Kudo is one of the most underrated wrestlers ever male or female but she's not the best female ever. Possibly top five though

[soup23]

I await Flik and other joshi and other experts to respond but I will say of the yearbook sets I have seen so far, the top end stuff is really great but there is still a decent amount of other matches that don't work very well. I can't think of any match from my top tier male wrestlers in a high profile situation in their peak as bad as that Toyota vs. Kong match from 1991. Aja would be my pick from what I have seen. Yearbook wise, 1997 has been the most consistent joshi stuff with Kudo as the standout but I am only in April.

[Loss]

Devil Masami doesn't peak as high as some of the others -- or at least she doesn't peak as high as often -- but she's remarkably consistent and was good for a very long time. Not sure about Mariko Yoshida, but I'll think about that after finishing the 1999 Yearbook.

 

Manami Toyota doesn't really work a style most of the time that I personally enjoy that much, but she has been in too many great matches and had too many strong performances to rule her out.

 

If I had a gun to my head right now, I'd probably pick Mayumi Ozaki.

 

Kong and Hokuto aren't terrible picks, but neither quite feels right.

 

Bull Nakano should be in the conversation.

[NintendoLogic]

I'd go with Aja myself. Overall, I'd have her somewhere in the top 20.

[silverwidow]

'93 Hokuto and '99 Yoshida are still my favorites. They were just so reliable in terms of pulling good-great matches out of just about anyone.

 

Best ever might be Jaguar, but I haven't seen nearly enough 80s Joshi to judge on that.

[rzombie1988]

Jaguar - In consideration as she was really good in pretty much everything I've seen. I've seen more of her Jd' work than her AJW work and she was really good there. It's not that her AJW stuff isn't out there, it's just that I have it and never watched it.

 

Ozaki - Was also really good in her peak but her current stuff really diminishes anything she used to be. She is also one of the worst bookers ever.

 

Toyota - I love her style, while some others don't. It's really hard to argue against her having a case. My favorites of her are the Yamada/Toyota vs Oz/Kansai series, vs Kandori, vs Aja(The one where she wins the title off Aja and Big Egg), vs Yamada, vs Hokuto, loved the Inoue match from 98 and others. I can come up with more great Toyota matches than most wrestlers without thinking too hard. She's also a great lady in person.

 

Aja - I wouldn't have any problems with her being considered. Tons of good matches and she still holds up well in 2013.

 

Hokuto - Another really good choice. She just had tons of good stuff and was the biggest star during AJW's hot 1990's period. She was better at 40% than most were at 100%. Tons of people have said she was the best female ever and I have no problems with it.

 

Sherri - No way. You can't grade her amongst the ones above. She wasn't even on a fraction of their levels. Good manager and good personality, but not a top worker.

 

The Crush Girls - Both have pretty good cases. Nagayo was a good worker with great aura and charisma and I've enjoyed most of the stuff I've watched of hers. Lioness was also good and really had a great heel run in the 90's.

 

Bull - I'm thinking No on Bull. She was good but doesn't really have the resumes of some of the others. Her best stuff is the Kandori chain match and the Kong match.

 

Kyoko Inoue - should also be in the running. She was one of the best at her peak and even with her weight gain was still able to do a lot of good stuff. She's going to be remembered though for her selfish booking and her weight gain.

 

Kudo - Because someone is going to say it and the answer is no. She didn't get good until she was near retirement. Great personality and one of the most popular female wrestlers in Japan though.

 

Best North American women's wrestler? Tough one. Gail Kim would have a really good shot at it. I really enjoyed Judy Martin but I don't think it's at that level. I pray nobody says Trish.

[Jimmy Redman]

I pray nobody says Trish.

I will.

 

Just for shits and giggles tell me why I shouldn't.

[ohtani's jacket]

I await Flik and other joshi and other experts to respond but I will say of the yearbook sets I have seen so far, the top end stuff is really great but there is still a decent amount of other matches that don't work very well.

Don't you think that's true of any style of wrestling?

 

I can't think of any match from my top tier male wrestlers in a high profile situation in their peak as bad as that Toyota vs. Kong match from 1991.

1991 wasn't Aja or Toyota's peak. They had two well regarded matches in 1994 and 1995 as they entered their peak.

 

For me, the lineage of greatness was always Jackie Sato, Jaguar Yokota and Chigusa Nagayo. Sato was obviously a lesser worker than the others, but for her time and the development of the Joshi style to that point she was the woman and would have had a lot of great matches with the later generation if the timing had been different.

[MJH]

For me, the lineage of greatness was always Jackie Sato, Jaguar Yokota and Chigusa Nagayo. Sato was obviously a lesser worker than the others, but for her time and the development of the Joshi style to that point she was the woman and would have had a lot of great matches with the later generation if the timing had been different.

This. Jackie was a step up (though The Black Pair looked a really good heel team for the period), then Jaguar was another sizable step-up and was the best worker they had and helped train everyone onward (she was the trainer within a few years of debuting). Chigusa was really fucking great, and has finally received her due since the Samurai Classics series and people going back to view the '80s with new eyes.

 

That said, Hokuto had the highest peak, but it was very short. If someone were to say her as GFOAT I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

 

Aja? Yes and no. Aja had better matches as the monster ace than Bull did, but Aja was also working with a greater crop of talent (or rather, the same crop, when they were far better). Bull got (really) good far quicker and, nifty little match though it is, I'd've much rather seen Chigusa work Bull than Hokuto in the run up to her retirement. It's one of the true lost matches.

 

What one has to accept with Toyota is that her style *is the house style*, she did it better than anyone, and her body held up incredibly well allowing her to be a strong talent for far longer than she had any right to be, really. She's as good as any wrestler has ever been offensively, as good a FIP as there's ever been, and on just about any Best 50 Joshi Matches Ever list she'd crop up the most. Her flaws are well-documented, but her strengths are undeniable and she has to be up there in "Tier 2" at worst (to copy the other thread).

 

Devil I really like. Facially, she's the female Regal, and that doesn't get mentioned enough. Her other strengths have been mentioned before and she's a Tier 2 talent, but I doubt she'd make anyone's Top 5.

 

Ozaki was, as many have said, almost certainly the best actress, and a great talent. Best ever? Not quite, but not far off. She's another who has held up better and could still cut a decent pace in recent years. I do prefer Kansai during the inter-promotional era though, and she's unquestionably up there too.

 

Kyoko's as likeable a babyface as you're ever going to see. I think it was OJ who said she "captured the joy of performing" better than anyone(?). That. Wonderful, but off the GFOAT pace.

 

Who else has been mentioned? If we're talking "big match" workers, to reference the Cena thread, Kandori was fantastic. Again, not GFOAT, but she'd probably get my #10 spot.

 

Yoshida suffers from peaking far after the others and the scene being in fast decline when she did. She's also stylistically different (by ARSION, though signs were there earlier) which helps. Not GFOAT but a Tier 2/3-at-worst.

 

Jackie, Jaguar, Chigusa, Hokuto, Aja, Bull, Toyota, Devil, Kansai, Ozaki, Kyoko, Kandori, Yoshida... that's 13, and probably your pool. Kudo is a stretch to me, Tier 3 at best, but she warrants a mention. She certainly made the best of what she had, but I think had she came through Zenjo she'd've been lost in the shuffle somewhat. For the sake of having 15 you could toss LCO there as a tag team but individually they're not at that level. That said, I can't think of many other teams male or female who benefited from each other as much as they did.

 

As far as Americans go, I'm gonna be cliche and say Debbie. She wasn't a super worker, and probably never would have been, but she couldn't have timed the injury worse. If someone was to give her the 20/25 spot to round out a "Top x" list, yeah...

[soup23]

I await Flik and other joshi and other experts to respond but I will say of the yearbook sets I have seen so far, the top end stuff is really great but there is still a decent amount of other matches that don't work very well.

Don't you think that's true of any style of wrestling?

 

I can't think of any match from my top tier male wrestlers in a high profile situation in their peak as bad as that Toyota vs. Kong match from 1991.

1991 wasn't Aja or Toyota's peak. They had two well regarded matches in 1994 and 1995 as they entered their peak.

 

For me, the lineage of greatness was always Jackie Sato, Jaguar Yokota and Chigusa Nagayo. Sato was obviously a lesser worker than the others, but for her time and the development of the Joshi style to that point she was the woman and would have had a lot of great matches with the later generation if the timing had been different.

 

To the first point: Not necessarily. Everyone has bad matches or performances I have problems with but with the top end male workers, there is very few matches that I don't consider at least good. I am admittedly a joshi novice but there has been a good amount of those on the joshi end. If I dislike Misawa vs. Kawada from 6/6/97 as much as Loss that may be one example, but up to this point all the Misawa stuff on the yearbook since he lost the mask has been nothing short of good of what I have seen.

 

I loved Aja vs. Toyota from 1994 Big Egg. I would have imagined that Toyotas peak years would be around 1990-1996 or so. Apologize if that is not the case. I really find it odd if Aja is only entering her peak in 1994 based on being the main person after beating Bull in 1992 and dominating the landscape.

[Childs]

What about Dynamite Kansai? She's come across really well on the yearbooks. Not saying she'd be No. 1; I'm just curious if she's near the top group for the more joshi-inclined.

 

It's telling that for harder core joshi fans, Toyota is a no-doubt contender for the top tier. She would never sniff my list of best wrestlers, but I guess that's more about my problems with the style than anything else. I'll happily acknowledge that she worked with remarkable stamina, and she could be a great face-in-peril when she wasn't racing ahead to the next missile dropkick. But the bottom line is I dread her matches.

[Kevin Ridge]

The first person to say The Fabulous Moolah gets banned. I might even come throw eggs on your house.

I think someone in these parts listed Moolah in their top 10 wrestlers (including males) of all time. Though they were referring to mostly WWF. But sharpen that ban hammer in case they show up in this thread.

[Dylan Waco]

Kansai is probably my favorite of the Josh ladies but I'm actually surprised to see her pop up in this thread. I have been so detached from Joshi talk for so long that I have no clue what the current views on people are. When I was watching she seemed a bit off pace in praise with some of the "top" names. Probably level to Kyoko Innoue which is to say respected as a talent but well beneath your Hokuto's, Nagayo's, Toyota's and Jaguar's.

[Badlittlekitten]

The first person to say The Fabulous Moolah gets banned. I might even come throw eggs on your house.

I think someone in these parts listed Moolah in their top 10 wrestlers (including males) of all time. Though they were referring to mostly WWF. But sharpen that ban hammer in case they show up in this thread.

 

Might have been me fella <_ i do find her ridiculously fun to watch be honest she a delightful stooge. nowhere near my top ten though especially now seen more wrestling footage in general.>

 

GFOAT? It's Hokuto all the way for me. Her peak was short but prime Hokuto is still the greatest wrestler I've ever seen. Brilliant, dynamic offence, as good in a sympathy role as she is at being a viscous bully, great entrance music, charismatic as fuck . . Even post- peak she's more entertaining than most.

 

I would be happy with anyone that said Chigusa though. No wrestler has captured an audience like she did. Her selling was superb at times as well (as was Hokuto's).

 

Jaguar is a machine and she deserves credit for the girls she's trained too. Ozaki is probably the smartest joshi worker there's been and I find her brawls fun to watch even today. I've never been keen on Toyota, not necessarily for her style, I just find her bland as fuck. Even though I like her, I've never been a huge fan of Aja for some reason, despite clearly being very good. I prefer Kansai actually.

 

I'm guessing nobody here is likes modern day joshi? Don't blame you, it's horrible for the most part. I do enjoy Ayako Hamada, Kyoko Kimura and Kana though, really stand out from the pack.

 

In terms of North America I gonna have to wax about Sara Del Rey. She's not the best babyface worker in the world but for that period in Shimmer where she dropped the title, lost her mind and started blazing a trail through the young, blue eyed midcard girls, she was amazing. For me it's up there with The Shield and Henry 2011 as one of my favourite heel runs of the last several years. Her matches with the likes of Jessie Mckay, Serena Deeb, and Tenille ( NXT's Emma) were magic. She beat the shit out of them yet gave them enough to earn credibility and made them look like stars in defeat. A veteran at their best. Her ten minute destruction of Rachel Summerlyn's pinky finger is quite something. It was a good Rachel Summerlyn match for a start!

[rzombie1988]

Modern Day Joshi is hard to keep up with. It's not drawing well and the promotion's not having TV really hurts it. Not much pops up online either and if it does, it's usually months behind, which doesn't lead to much discussion. We do get more WAVE than we used to but that's about the only good thing.

 

I never liked Sara Del Rey. She wasn't that good, had that horrible face paint and was slow. Plus, she was always such a nasty person that she made Abdullah seem nice.

[Badlittlekitten]

Her nastiness is awesome. She is awesome.

 

The joshi stuff that pops up rarely is any good. The style has eaten itself. It's load of stuff happening at a million miles per hour for no reason. Back in the day the matches were paced better and they'd even be - shock! - selling in them. There was gravitas and a sense of drama there. Now it's a crowd of 50 middle aged geezers who look like they're bored out of their nut. It's depressing.

 

There's no larger than life personalties any more. Apart from Hiroyo Matsumoto and the three I mentioned above, everyone's forgettable.

[Death From Above]

Every time I go through the yearbooks and see the term "good for joshi" (or some other thinly veiled insult backhanded compliment variant of that), I feel like turning off my computer. Just thought I'd get that out there.

 

Anyway, overall Aja for me. Though other women had better peaks. But I like her overall body of work that I've seen a lot.

[Kevin Ridge]

Every time I go through the yearbooks and see the term "good for joshi" (or some other thinly veiled insult backhanded compliment variant of that), I feel like turning off my computer. Just thought I'd get that out there.

Might have been me fella <_>

[soup23]

Every time I go through the yearbooks and see the term "good for joshi" (or some other thinly veiled insult backhanded compliment variant of that), I feel like turning off my computer. Just thought I'd get that out there.

 

Anyway, overall Aja for me. Though other women had better peaks. But I like her overall body of work that I've seen a lot.

Ill say with the first part that I think most everyone that is going through the yearbooks and is commenting on almost every thread is receptive to the style. I know for me, Joshi is one of the things along with lucha I have looked forward to most since it is the style I have seen the least of. Some can be amazing ( I had the 8/24/94 tag match as my #2 match of the year in a loaded year) and the majority that makes the yearbook is good. However, there are tendencies in joshi that can irk me based on the pace they work the match with.

[Childs]

I dislike a lot of pimped joshi for reasons I've stated without condescension. If I'm pleasantly surprised by a match, that's not a backhanded compliment; it's just me saying I like something in a style that's not my favorite. Could just as easily be about 2013 New Japan or Chikara or a Davey Richards match.

[Alucard]

In terms of North America I gonna have to wax about Sara Del Rey. She's not the best babyface worker in the world but for that period in Shimmer where she dropped the title, lost her mind and started blazing a trail through the young, blue eyed midcard girls, she was amazing. For me it's up there with The Shield and Henry 2011 as one of my favourite heel runs of the last several years. Her matches with the likes of Jessie Mckay, Serena Deeb, and Tenille ( NXT's Emma) were magic. She beat the shit out of them yet gave them enough to earn credibility and made them look like stars in defeat. A veteran at their best. Her ten minute destruction of Rachel Summerlyn's pinky finger is quite something. It was a good Rachel Summerlyn match for a start!

Agreed. May have been Rachel's best match too. I really loved the Del Rey/Jessica James match from Volume 40. Brilliant big vs little match built around the smaller Jessica trying to bring Sara down. Felt like a real breakout performance for the often underrated Jessica but unfortunately she would never be brought back to Shimmer.

 

As for modern joshi, I always enjoy the aforementioned Hamada, Kana, and Matsumoto as well as Arisa Nakajima, Tomoka Nakagawa, Misaki Ohata, Yumi Ohka, and before her retirement Ayumi Kurihara. Kana and Serena Deeb had a good couple matches in Japan a couple years ago.

[Al]

Moolah is probably underrated, since 99% of the footage of her has her beyond the age of 50, and maybe 90% of it is after the age of 60. North America seems impossible to answer since a great many of the prime candidates, Mae Young and Penny Banner among others, had virtually none of their prime preserved on film. Of the modern women wrestlers, Trish Stratus was very good but she wasn't as good as Velvet McIntyre for example.

[Loss]

NO!