Is it possible to be too ignorant to enjoy Japanese wrestling - or do I secretly agree with Vince Russo

[WingedEagle]

Mission accomplished. Only question for me is when. Thought the podcast did a great job setting the table for the lucha set.

[ohtani's jacket]

80 All Japan doesn't seem that angle heavy or full of intricacies to me. There are the few big ongoing feuds. What else do you need to know?

 

- Baba is a legend there.

- The Funks are both legends there, but the fans have a special affinity with Terry

- Jumbo is Baba's protege who makes a step up to be the ace.

- In turn, Tenryu is his protege who eventually wants to make that same set up

- There is always hierarchy and it is explicitly marked

- Brody and Stan Hansen are at the top of the tree on the gajin side, and when Brody goes, Hansen replaces him with a series of partners (DiBiase, Gordy and eventually Tenryu)

- When Choshu and friends come in they rip shit up like the NWO. If it's not obvious from the crowd losing their shit, Choshu is an established big star. They've come in from New Japan and this is an invasion of All Japan by Choshu and his key allies, probably the most prominent of whom is Yatsu.

- After Tenryu establishes Revolution, it's clear that group doesn't respect the old hierarchies and traditions which are basically embodied in Jumbo (and Baba), it's a classic "uprising of the youth against the establishment" narrative. Tenryu has no respect for his elders or superiors and kicks all kinds of ass.

 

Have I missed anything? Most of that is obvious within 5 minutes of seeing any of these guys. It's always obvious who the main event guys are in tags because they fucking deck midcarders. While face and heel dynamics in terms of fans actually booing for heels are not quite the same (Hansen will always get cheered even vs. Funk or Jumbo), it's always obvious who is the antagonist and if it's not, well, it's usually the guy taking on Jumbo or one of his allies.

 

I had a problem with Tenryu early in the set because the dude's faces never fucking changes. He's permanently non-plussed 24/7. It works amazingly when he's leading Revolution, not so much when he's meant to be Jumbo's plucky number 2. But that's just my take.

 

I honestly don't know what MORE context you could want to get through that particular set.

Something more than archetypes? Archetypes are fine for following the basic narrative of the match, but look at how much El Boricua's translations added to the Puerto Rico fued. Perhaps I'm over imagining what people mean by context, but to me when people mention the Misawa/Kawada dynamic my gut reaction is to question what they mean. Why was there animosity between Misawa and Kawada? Why did they break up? These questions are difficult to answer and yet they'd be crucial to any understanding of American wrestling. What generally happens is that people focus on Kawada's hard luck story, but was that really the theme of their feud? Again, it's difficult to say. So to me I think the context people are looking for isn't really out there. I'd even go so far to say that we've created out own context for many of these matches over the years through our reviews and so forth.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I like to make up my own storylines. Like 6/9/95 for example. Kobashi got roughed up because he found out about internal affairs lying to the cops. He needed to be shut up. Kawada and Taue were in on the thing the whole time. If they don't stop Kobashi, they'll be found out. Misawa is two weeks away from retirement. The last thing he wants is to be wrapped up in this mess. He's clearly too old for that shit!

 

Don't even get me started on the MPro 10-mans.

That's fantastic.

 

I'm a guy who also wants to know why people are fighting. As far as Misawa/ Kawada goes, I bought that set someone had out there about 6 years ago, and I figured it all out. And I love it. But I have to admit that I need the story to really dig a wrestling match. That's why I'm loving watching the PR stuff now that that awesome dude is filling in the stories.

[RyanClingman]

I take a middle of the road type of approach. While I don't think that context and back story is completely necessary it does help. I know that when I watched the June 9th Kobashi/Misawa versus Kawada/Taue match for the first time it was a tremendous match, perhaps one of the best that I had ever seen, but when I went back and watched it in context with the entire Kawada/Misawa feud, there was no longer a "probably" statement in my though process -- it was one of the greatest matches of all time. However, I do have a counter example, as the one match that really got me into puro, the June 8th Jumbo/Misawa match, was a match that I went in relatively blind for. Sure, I knew about Japanese pro-wrestling, I knew that the match had been given 5* by so many people, and I knew about Misawa, and for whatever reason had an emotional connection with him. I also knew that it was a star making performance, but nothing else, and when I saw Misawa walk to the ring I literally got goose bumps, and it is something that still gives me that same reaction to this day. Then there are matches like Aja Kong/Toyota from Big Egg Universe, and I came in completely blind there. I thought that I would like Joshi, had scene a Toyota match or two, and decided to order a best of and fell in love with that match. Other matches like Bull/Aja needed some context for me. I guess it all depends. If I were you I would look at the Tiger Mask II unmasking and the Jumbo wars, because that really helped me get into Japanese pro-wrestling (although it really was a love at first site kind of deal for me). Starting with the Keith h Kawada/Misawa set is also a great idea, as the story telling throughout that saga is very clear. I also agree with what some other people have said in that you should probably mix the classic up with other matches, not necessary dull or boring, but a change of pace is good, at least for me. I know that I would be completely burnt out if I were to watch a 5 disc Holy Demon Army set all in one go or something. The Kenta Kobashi 2003-2005 NOAH title run is also a great place to start from my point of view, and I would mix it up with some New Japan Juniors stuff, together with Kawada/Misawa and maybe a Jumbo/Misawa comp. It also could be a good idea to experiment with some Joshi or M-Pro if you aren't too big on the mainevent strong style matches, you may find something that you really like.

[Mad Dog]

I'm a big context guy with lucha and puro. I watch full shows and in chronological order. I think my preference for full shows is why I've always been a bigger New Japan fan than NOAH or All Japan. I like to know why guys are fighting. I like to see guys like Wataru Inoue start out as lower card guys that do a lot of jobs and watch them slowly fight their way up the card over a long period of time. I also feel it made things like Yuji Nagata winning the IWGP Title in 2007 mean so much more when I had the context of his previous reign in my viewing history.

[jdw]

Perhaps I'm over imagining what people mean by context, but to me when people mention the Misawa/Kawada dynamic my gut reaction is to question what they mean. Why was there animosity between Misawa and Kawada?

Setting aside the mythical out of the ring stuff that the fans may or may not have known about (which is silly to me anyway), and the stuff dating back to their high school days when Misawa was on top and Kawada bottomed, and their entire pro careers up through the point their partnership ended where Misawa topped and Kawada bottomed...

 

Misawa was the top dog.

 

Kawada was the #2 native and wanted to beat him. He was 0-for-Life, which at that point was almost a 13 year career.

 

Think of someone jobbing to me for 13 years on message boards. There'd be a little bit of animosity.

 

 

Why did they break up?

Baba: "Jumbo isn't coming back. I want to you team with Taue."

 

I mean... there wasn't a break up. Kawada had tears in his eyes at the end of his final time in the ring with members of that group. This ain't now Choshu turning on Fujinami. So for enjoyment of the storyline after April 1994, it really isn't critical. They were partners. The big tubby dude on the other side lost his partner. The Boss told Kawada to go partner with the big tubby guy opposite Misawa and his old partners.

 

No of course that's a big more important with respect to the Kawada-Taue dynamic, but that's a different "why".

 

 

These questions are difficult to answer and yet they'd be crucial to any understanding of American wrestling.

For enjoying the 06/09/95 match? The second wouldn't at all. Knowledge that Misawa and Kawada use to be partners helps, but why they "broke up" isn't terribly important to understanding the match. They had been opposite of each other for a year, and Baba telling Kawada to pair with Taue wasn't terribly important anymore. That Kawada and Taue paired up, and buried the old rivalry is of... pretty limited importance to understanding the match. It doesn't play into it: that the two team together well after a year isn't terribly relevant.

 

Kawada being 0-for-Life against Misawa? Kind of important.

 

 

What generally happens is that people focus on Kawada's hard luck story, but was that really the theme of their feud?

Hard luck? It's not hard luck when the other guy beats you like a drum for 13 straight years. Not going to say that no one has used the phrase "hard luck" in connection with Kawada before, but really the focus on that specific match has tended to be far more about Kawada being 0-for-Life going into this rather than any bad breaks of luck he's had over the years.

 

 

Again, it's difficult to say. So to me I think the context people are looking for isn't really out there. I'd even go so far to say that we've created out own context for many of these matches over the years through our reviews and so forth.

Totally agree.

 

Kawada hasn't lost for 13 years to Misawa. Misawa didn't have an eye damage in the Carny when Kawada kicked him and thrashed his orbital bones, which Taue and Kawada hadn't been trying to target since. Misawa had lost to lots of Japanese wrestlers since Jumbo went out back in late 1992, rather than being undefeated against his age group peers in the company. Misawa wasn't the Triple Crown champ and the clear Ace of the company, holding a spot that Kawada and Taue would like to have. Kobashi had singles wins over Kawada and Taue all the way back to his rookie year in 1988...

 

That's creating context. I mean... it's all utter bullshit that's 180 degrees opposite from reality, but it's creating context for it.

 

Now it's entirely possible that if Kawada & Taue won, they got to have 30 days with Misawa's wife... and that because I don't speak Japanese, I didn't catch that part. Or that Dave didn't have it in the WON. Or that the reporter who use to fax Dave and I results and storyline stuff like that failed to mention it. It's possible, and maybe that's what the Triple Crown match between Misawa and Kawada the following series was really all about: Misawa trying to win his beloved back, and Kawada not really giving a shit about the belts but wanting another 30 days with Mrs. Misawa. Creating context... yeah... this is fun. Kind of like Gary Albright vs Kawada years ago...

[WingedEagle]

I mean... there wasn't a break up. Kawada had tears in his eyes at the end of his final time in the ring with members of that group.

Which match was that?

[jdw]

On the bigger theme of the post in the thread since that last time I posted (page 1), I'd go back to what I said:

 

Get one of the Yearbooks. There's Japanese stuff mixed in with US stuff. There's "good stuff" from Japan, some "set up stuff" from Japan, and the Big/Great Matches from that year that we'd suggest if it was a straight Best Of. There's heavies, and juniors. There are different promotions, and different styles. There are even women.

 

1993 is pretty accessible. There's cool US stuff right off the bat. There's some Japanese guys out of the box that you might recognize: Muta and Liger. You get the Steiners against Hawk and another Japanese guy. Maybe the first All Japan match doesn't float your boat, but the second one in the context of US tag matches on the disk right around it... yeah... it's pretty fun, and is a good intro to some guys you'll see a lot of if you watch Japanese wrestling, especially Kobashi. Gordy & Williams show up for the third All Japan match. The women show up, with an ass kicked (Aja) and two workrate women (Toyota and Yamada), with all kinds of stiffness.

 

You can pace yourself, but the set does that because there's so much US stuff in there, along with some of that stuff from Mexico. And like I said: there's a helpful post on *every* match and promo and angle on the disk over in the Yearbook section.

 

If you get through the first 10 discs of that, which are again loads of US stuff as well, you're going to find one of the following:

 

* you don't care for any of the Japanese stuff

 

Which is fine. That happens.

 

* you only like certain stuff

 

You like the juniors. Or you like the women, because it's so different from any women you've seen. Or you like All Japan. Or you like it when there's a gaijin in the match. Or you like FMW. Or...

 

That's good. Whatever you like, they're a lot more of it. You like the juniors? There is a metric ton of it. Like All Japan. Loads of it. Hate all Japan? You've learned what to avoid.

 

* you like a lot of stuff and find it not to hard to watch

 

Then you can go to town on it. You have 20 more discs just in the set. There's loads more on Youtube, or in the other sets, or where ever.

 

But the easiest suggestion would be to try one of those. It gives about as balanced of an intro as you'll find, along with what was going on in the US.

[jdw]

I mean... there wasn't a break up. Kawada had tears in his eyes at the end of his final time in the ring with members of that group.

Which match was that?

 

04/21/93 Taue & Fuchi & Ogawa vs Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi. Aired 05/09/93 in JIP form. Full version is on Youtube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EiixzcHsQw

 

Gotta watch is eyes and expression closely in the post match as he's quick with it and doesn't make a production number over it. Taue is does try to get across in the post match their coming partnership, and is less subtle.

[NintendoLogic]

We need a thread dedicated to alternate fanfiction storylines for famous All Japan matches.

[jdw]

We need a thread dedicated to alternate fanfiction storylines for famous All Japan matches.

Misawa was pushed above Kawada because he was banging Mrs. Baba. Their falling out was because Mrs. Baba took Johnny Ace as her new lover.

 

[jdw]

I'd add that my creative context creation at the end of it wasn't even my best line of the post.

[WingedEagle]

I mean... there wasn't a break up. Kawada had tears in his eyes at the end of his final time in the ring with members of that group.

Which match was that?

 

04/21/93 Taue & Fuchi & Ogawa vs Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi. Aired 05/09/93 in JIP form. Full version is on Youtube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EiixzcHsQw

 

Gotta watch is eyes and expression closely in the post match as he's quick with it and doesn't make a production number over it. Taue is does try to get across in the post match their coming partnership, and is less subtle.

 

Thanks. I'll definitely make a note to check that out when I get to that part of the '93 yearbook. Which if I'm lucky will be before the end of the year

[Loss]

Sadly that match didn't make the cut will definitely make the supplemental.

[WingedEagle]

Even Coppola had to leave some scenes on the cutting room floor.

[jdw]

Sadly that match didn't make the cut will definitely make the supplemental.

I've never watched the full version. The JIP version... not really something at the level that makes the cut. Perhaps Ditch or I could have pushed for "use the finish / end" as something worthy, but I don't think we thought of it at the time. The match itself might not even be supplemental worthy, and the end part really makes more sense in the 1993 set than on the supplemental.

 

Hard call. It's not massively critical in the big picture other than a cool footnote. Only mentioned it here because the Break Up question game up, and it's bearing on 06/09/95 isn't terribly significant.

[ohtani's jacket]

Now it's entirely possible that if Kawada & Taue won, they got to have 30 days with Misawa's wife... and that because I don't speak Japanese, I didn't catch that part. Or that Dave didn't have it in the WON. Or that the reporter who use to fax Dave and I results and storyline stuff like that failed to mention it. It's possible, and maybe that's what the Triple Crown match between Misawa and Kawada the following series was really all about: Misawa trying to win his beloved back, and Kawada not really giving a shit about the belts but wanting another 30 days with Mrs. Misawa. Creating context... yeah... this is fun. Kind of like Gary Albright vs Kawada years ago...

You're always trying to undercut people's arguments with silly examples. You've been doing it ever since you dug that hole for yourself by belligerently arguing that Sano won the Liger feud. You can't really answer the questions I posed because the answers weren't in the WON and you didn't receive a fax about them. It's okay if you don't know the answers, they're not really important to people's enjoyment of the matches, though they would provide a bit more context as El Boricua's explanations of the back stories in Puerto Rico wrestling have. Mind you, the ghost of Baba himself could post here and you'd probably tell him it wasn't in the WON.

[jdw]

You're always trying to undercut people's arguments with silly examples.

I thought the balance of my post did a good enough job of making my point. The ending that you quoted was simply there to entertain anyone who read through all of it. Kind of like the center of a Tootsy Pop.

But folks are welcome to go back and read the rest of the post that you ducked.

You've been doing it ever since you dug that hole for yourself by belligerently arguing that Sano won the Liger feud.

My thought would be that if that thread from A1wrestling.com were available, and we could link to it, no one reading it today would think that I dug a hole for myself at any point in the thread. What they would think is that you were wrong in it, time and again. I was hardly the only one in the thread pointing out that you were being loopy.

As far as my silly examples in it, my primary one was that Sano was like a wandering martial arts master going from town to town to perfect his skills and craft. That the wandering actually made his career interesting on a level unlike most wrestlers. That had he stayed in New Japan to feud with Liger for the next half decade or more, he would have had a far less interesting career. I thought it was an apt analogy at the time. Still do, and suspect that if people read it now they would agree. Also suspect that if Will ever does a Sano set, the silly "wandering master" analogy will come across even stronger.

As far as winning their rivalry, rather than their short 1989-90 feud which isn't what we were talking about back then:

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=91&nr=203...llation=Singles

Sano vs Liger = 3-1-1

With Liger happy to put him over in the last match at the time were were talking.

You can't really answer the questions I posed because the answers weren't in the WON and you didn't receive a fax about them.

The questions you asked:

Why was there animosity between Misawa and Kawada?

I answered.

Why did they break up?

I answered.

Both of those things were well known at the time. More than just by WON readers - my Japanese co-workers who were puroresu fans knew them as well.

It's okay if you don't know the answers, they're not really important to people's enjoyment of the matches, though they would provide a bit more context as El Boricua's explanations of the back stories in Puerto Rico wrestling have.

That's good, Daniel. It's also Puerto Rico.

Mind you, the ghost of Baba himself could post here and you'd probably tell him it wasn't in the WON.

Of course I would tell him he wasn't Baba. There are no ghosts, so it would just be someone working a sock puppet angle talking out of his ass.

John

[JerryvonKramer]

What they would think is that you were wrong in it, time and again. I was hardly the only one in the thread pointing out that you were being loopy.

Don't worry OJ, we've all been there.

 

That said, quite interested in a Sano as Ryu from Street Fighter comp if only for the amazing potential of the front cover.

[jdw]

Don't give yourself credit there, Jerry. Daniel was there more than a decade before you were.

[JerryvonKramer]

I wouldn't dream of giving myself credit Sensei.

[jdw]

Which would be counter to any number of posts you've made over the years.

[Loss]

Is it possible to be too ignorant to enjoy Japanese wrestling, or do I secretly agree with Vince Russo?

[BrickHithouse]

I'd like to hear an update from the brain so we can find out how his Japan watching is going, if he's started yet.

[jdw]

Is it possible to be too ignorant to enjoy Japanese wrestling, or do I secretly agree with Vince Russo?

Would any of us admit to agreeing with Russ.