pantherwagner Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 It's time for the 2013 Hall of Fame elections. The criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer or excelling in ones field in pro wrestling, as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. A candidate should either have something to offer in all three categories, or be someone so outstanding in one or two of those categories that they deserve inclusion. The names listed below are those under consideration for this year. To be eligible, a performer must have reached their 35th birthday and completed ten years since their debut as a full-time performer, or be someone who has been a full-time pro wrestler for at least 15 years. Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significant as a trend-setter or a historical figure in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they need to be included. However, just longevity without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or a top caliber in-ring performer should be seen as relatively meaningless. The maximum number of wrestlers that you can vote for all the categories is ten. You can pick as few as zero if you don't believe anyone on this list deserves inclusion. For wrestling executives, managers, announcers and other outside the ring performers, you can vote for them and they are not counted against the ten. You can vote for as many as five of them. --- I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Gene & Ole Anderson The Assassins (Joe Hamilton & Tom Renesto) Red Bastien June Byers Pepper Gomez Rip Hawk Dick Hutton Ciclon Negro Dutch Savage Kinji Shibuya Wilbur Snyder John Tolos Enrique Torres Count Billy Varga Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Bob Armstrong Batista Edge Owen Hart Curt Hennig Ivan Koloff Brock Lesnar Fabulous Moolah Pedro Morales Dick Murdoch Ken Patera Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) Sgt. Slaughter Jimmy Snuka Sting A.J. Styles Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES George Gordienko Gran Hamada Volk Han Masahiko Kimura Yuji Nagata Seiji Sakaguchi Kensuke Sasaki Mike & Ben Sharpe Kiyoshi Tamura Hiroshi Tanahashi I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Atlantis Cien Caras Hector Garza Karloff Lagarde Blue Panther L.A. Park Huracan Ramirez Vampiro Villano III Dr. Wagner Jr. Dr. Wagner Sr. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES Jim Breaks Big Daddy Giant Haystacks Horst Hoffman Billy Joyce Kendo Nagasaki Jackie Pallo Rollerball Mark Rocco Johnny Saint I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES Spyros Arion Johnny Barend Carlos Colon Domenic DeNucci Killer Karl Kox Mark Lewin Mario Milano NON-WRESTLERS Bill Apter Dave Brown Jim Crockett Jr. Jim Crockett Sr. Gary Hart Jimmy Hart Howard Finkel Jerry Jarrett Takashi Matsunaga Gorilla Monsoon Gene Okerluind Don Owen Jesse Ventura Stanley Weston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted September 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Quick thoughts on Mexico. This is not my final ballot. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Atlantis: YES - I have been back and forth on him depending on the year. Really tempted to wait for 2 years to see what masks does he add to his collection. Cien Caras: Absolute YES and it's a crime that he isn't in because of his work being bad during most of the 90s Hector Garza: God bless the poor guy but no. Karloff Lagarde: Yes. I was a big supporter of his during the early 00's. Blue Panther: Absolutely yes. L.A. Park: In the future probably yes but I'd rather wait and see. Huracan Ramirez: Need to think about it. Probably yes, but I may want to vote for some non-Mexico stars who are more deserving. Vampiro: Nope. Villano III: Strongest candidate on the ballot. Dr. Wagner Jr.: In the future probably yes but I'd rather wait and see. Dr. Wagner Sr.: Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Got my ballot last night. New 5 person limit on non-wrestler candidates my first year? BOO! Other changes: - Johnny Barend was moved from historical to Australiasia/East Asia/Puerto Rico. - New to the ballot are June Byers, Rip Hawk, Ciclon Negro, and Dutch Savage (Historical), Bob Armstrong, Ken Patera, and A.J. Styles (Modern), Yuji Nagata (Japan), Hector Garza (Mexico), Jim Breaks & Billy Joyce (Europe), Killer Karl Kox (Australiasia/East Asia/Puerto Rico), Dave Brown, Jim Crockett Sr., Howard Finkel, Jimmy Hart, Takashi Matsunaga, Gene Okerlund, & Stanley Weston (Non-wrestlers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Just got my ballot in too. Really torn this year. I've been thinking a lot about Red Bastien. He'd likely be in if he'd wrestled in the video tape era based on his work and his rep. Is it fair to penalize the great workers of the past while stockpiling guys from the 1980s and beyond simply because we never saw them in their primes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 I'm annoyed with myself because it's unlikely I am going to have time to do any more Patera geek stuff, but what can you do. I know he won't get in this year, but I hope he doesn't fall off the ballot. A.J. Styles has to be the weakest guy ever to be on the ballot right? On Bastien I wouldn't vote for him but there isn't a single wrestler I would vote for solely on work alone. More later I'm sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 I think the Red Bastiens of the 80's, 90's and 2000's are in. So it's an interesting conundrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 I think the Red Bastiens of the 80's, 90's and 2000's are in. So it's an interesting conundrum. Who do you have in mind specifically? I hate to make the comparison because Benoit was Benoit and Bastien by all accounts was one of the most decent humans ever in the wrestling business but he is the first guy that comes to mind. I'll be the first to say I'm hardly an expert on the career of Red (though I've come across him a lot when reviewing results among other things), but was Bastien ever a top of the card guy the way Benoit was for a few years? My point here what would be the peripheral arguments for Bastien? Pretty much every guy in for work/performance that I can think of has something like "he was on top for a while" or "he was influential" or some other such thing to "bolster" their case even if we all know it was primarily work that got them in. Dave and I discussed this on our HoF podcast with Kurt Brown last year, but I could almost see an argument for guys like Red Bastien and Sputnik Monroe for reasons that have nothing to do with the traditional metrics, though I can't say that argument would compel me to vote for either if I had a ballot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Anybody have any George Gordienko stories? I only heard about him when he was mentioned by an old german globe trotting wrestler, who met him in England and said he was the most impressive wrestler he'd ever seen. Apparently Gordienko was a hooker and expelled from the US during the communist witchhunt. Then moved on to be an artist after his wrestling career and got quite some recognition. Why is he on the japan ballot? Are there any japan matches of his on tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 A.J. Styles has to be the weakest guy ever to be on the ballot right?The Dudleys were once on the ballot. They have to be in contention too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 I would never argue for the Dudleys, but I think they were clearly better candidates than Styles. Looking at this I actually think with the exception of Lucha, the guys with the really strong cases are pretty spread out. Looking specifically at my pet project Patera, I'd say he's no worse than the third best candidate in U.S. modern performers. I'd rate him slightly below Koloff I think and could flip a coin with him and the RnR's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Kane and Sabu have to be up there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Did Red Bastien headline? Shawn Michaels is in on work alone too I'm guessing. Is Michaels a good comparison? What about Jericho? What about Rey? I know Rey was a draw but I don't think that's why most people who voted for him did so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Rey is someone you could argue for influence, drawing power and work. Jericho shouldn't be in in my view (though I don't think he's completely awful as a candidate). Michaels got in way to soon and is probably in for just work alone because of WHEN he got in, but you can justify is case after the fact (absurd sure, but the point is if you tossed him out he would get voted back in on merit right away). Sabu was a much better candidate than Styles, if you buy the influence argument. Even Kane feels considerably stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Bastien is a guy who everyone talks about reverentially. Even the shooters. I don't know enough to make a compelling case one way or another. I was to interview him for Shooters but he was too far gone. I may try to look into it if I have time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 With the Bastien discussion I also find myself wondering if all of the CAC and related work should strengthen his candidacy, because it's definitely a positive impact on the business. Similarly: I've seen some people throw out Chris Nowinski's name, and he turns 35 at the end of the month, and while he absolutely doesn't have the resume as a performer, he has a greater positive impact on the state of the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Can anybody who votes for AJ lose their ballot? Also if Jimmy Hart doesn't get in I will be shocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Glad to see Matsunaga on there, but wonder if it shouldn't be the whole family rather than just one. Glad to see Weston on there, but kind of wish it was "London Publishing" which could honor Weston, Apter, King, Saks and the rest of them together rather than have Apter draw votes, Weston and after thought, and the rest of London ignored. A good first step... but if neither get in, perhaps worth discussing with Dave to "Freebird" them under London. One thing I'm kicking myself when sending the e-mail to remind on Matsunaga was that I forgot to bring up one of the other promoters we talked about last year: Salvador "Chavo" Lutteroth Jr. 30+ years as the boss of wrestling in EMLL, even the creation of UWA didn't stop EMLL from doing good business. I'd kind pointed him towards asking Steve and Jose about him. If Owen is on the ballot for running a smaller promotion for decades, you kind of think Chavo at least warrants consideration for that long stretch between Hall of Famer Lutteroth Sr. and Hall of Famer Paco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted September 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Moolah is a worse candidate than Styles, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted September 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Salvador "Chavo" Lutteroth Jr. 30+ years as the boss of wrestling in EMLL, even the creation of UWA didn't stop EMLL from doing good business. I'd kind pointed him towards asking Steve and Jose about him. If Owen is on the ballot for running a smaller promotion for decades, you kind of think Chavo at least warrants consideration for that long stretch between Hall of Famer Lutteroth Sr. and Hall of Famer Paco. It hurts him that he was there from 75-87 where he had solid business and the wrestling was awesome all the way through, but he had his lunch being eaten at the box office by LLI/UWA on smaller Mexico City and Mexico State events. All over the country they were still doing very well. But that "distant second best" perception is hard to shake off. But he should definitely get credit also as the "cleaner". When Paco would get too lazy or stupid they'd send him on vacation and he'd come in and fix everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted September 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Bastien is an interesting name. I read his bio recently and I'd vote for him if I knew more. What's so positive about the CAC? This is an honest question. I know about it as a place for older dudes to meet with old colleagues and fans. I vaguely recall them collecting money for injured/destitute wrestlers but can't remember any specifics. He also gets points for the most creative promoter payoff scam ever (most of you know this already, but for those that don't, he gave lucha wrestlers checks that could be cashed by "Pirata Morgan" or "Superboy" instead of their real names). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Is there an easy list of who Bastien trained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Moolah is a worse candidate than Styles, right? I'm not so sure, but I would say she's the closest to his level mentioned so far. The thing is someone must have said they would vote for Styles, because Dave said he asked around about him but didn't include him initially because he couldn't find anyone who was actually saying they would vote for him. To Grimmas point, I actually don't think Jimmy Hart will get in. With the five candidate cut off for non-performers (probably a good idea to be honest), I think you will see a lot of people go with their pet picks and Jimmy was a guy who people didn't even realize had never been on the ballot until last year. Also I don't get the sense that Dave is going to push for him to near the degree he pushed for Albano, and while I think it is wrong to assume that Dave dictates who will get in (hell look at how many people here have ballots at this point, at least nine people, probably more), I do think guys like that need at least someone prominent pleading their case to have a real shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 I'm more optimistic about Jimmy Hart's chances than Dylan is, but that's because he's so well-liked within the business as opposed to people voting strictly on merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 - New to the ballot are June Byers, Rip Hawk, Ciclon Negro, and Dutch Savage (Historical), Bob Armstrong, Ken Patera, and A.J. Styles (Modern), Yuji Nagata (Japan), Hector Garza (Mexico), Jim Breaks & Billy Joyce (Europe), Killer Karl Kox (Australiasia/East Asia/Puerto Rico), Dave Brown, Jim Crockett Sr., Howard Finkel, Jimmy Hart, Takashi Matsunaga, Gene Okerlund, & Stanley Weston (Non-wrestlers).Both Breaks and Joyce were on the ballot last year but neither fared that well. Breaks received 15% of the votes, whilst Joyce only just scraped staying on with 11%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Anyone voting for AJ Styles for the WON HOF is just comically bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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