rovert Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Tanahashi has been deliberately deemphasised this year so that Okada isn't in his shadow. Tanahashi is still probably the main draw for the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Awesome thanks Kris. One of the first things that stands out to me after reviewing this is that Tanahashi has been in the main event of a non-G1 Final show that sold out Sumo Hall once: NJPW, 2/18/07 (WPW/PPV) Tokyo Ryogoku Kokugikan 11,500 Fans 1. Yujiro & Tetsuya Naito beat Takashi Uwano & Mitsuhide Hirasawa (12:04) when Yujiro used a German suplex hold on Hirasawa. 2. Super Jr. ~ THE CROSSOVER: Tiger Mask, El Samurai, Dick Togo & TAKA Michinoku Kaientai Dojo beat Jushin Thunder Liger, Jado, Gedo & Shuji Kondo (12:42) when Tiger used a Tiger suplex hold on Liger. 3. Kakumei CRASH: Riki Choshu & Takashi Iizuka beat Toru Yano & Tomohiro Ishii (8:25) when Iizuka used a cross armbreaker on Ishii. 4. New Japan vs. GBH Special Singles Match ~ "GREAT! BIG vs HIP": Shiro Koshinaka beat Manabu Nakanishi (9:30) with a jumping hip attack. 5. BLACK vs. GBH Special Singles Match ~ "SANCTIONS": Shinsuke Nakamura beat Togi Makabe (11:42) with the Landslide. 6. BLACK AUTHORITY: Hiroyoshi Tenzan & TARU beat Masahiro Chono & Milano Collection AT (11:28) when Tenzan used the TTD on Milano. 7. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title: Minoru © beat Wataru Inoue (11:38) with a cross armbreaker (1st defense). 8. It's real! It's impulse!: Kurt Angle TNA Wrestling & Yuji Nagata beat Giant Bernard & Travis Tomko (14:43) when Nagata used the Nagata Lock II on Tomko. 9. IWGP Heavyweight Title: Hiroshi Tanahashi © beat Koji Kanemoto (21:52) with a Dragon suplex hold (4th defense). Looking at that show I find it hard to believe that the main event was the reason for the sellout, but who knows. The numbers on Stu's site are what the promotion announced publicly and not the real figure. Pro Wrestling History says this show drew 7,000 fans, not 11,500. The Dome show figures I posted came from the Observer so should be more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 There was lots of older stuff discussed years ago on the net, though not in a detailed way all that often and that is the real difference. On Lawler he always had people who touted him as an all timer, but we were a small minority. I've always kind of wondered this: Does Lawler have any idea that at least a subsection of people think so highly of him as a worker? Not as a presence or as "The King." It used to be such a small minority and now it's not. Meltzer talked about this on Monday. He said how most of the WWF guys in the mid-late 1990's didn't think of him as a good worker. Apparently, Lawler only had a few supporters who thought of him as a "phenomenal worker" at the time. Meltzer said how the perception has changed, and now Lawler is thought of as a fantastic worker. Meltzer talks about how Lawler would, pre-heart attack, feel that he was better than most of the guys in WWE, and how badly he wanted to be pushed (this same story was in the WON last year when reporting about Lawler's heart attack). Meltzer concludes that when Lawler was given a chance by WWE, he did outwork most of the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Tanahashi has been deliberately deemphasised this year so that Okada isn't in his shadow. Tanahashi is still probably the main draw for the promotion. I've seen people say that a ton. I'm not saying you are wrong, but when I look at the way in which he has been scaled back v. the way number one WWE draw Cena was booked when he wasn't the champ and they were trying to get Punk over the difference is massive. Perhaps this is a bad comparison because lots of us think the WWE's booking during that period was fairly unwise. Still the point is that Tanahashi's "deemphasis" is much more clear than Cena's was and it makes claims about him still being the top draw in NJPW much more speculative than they would otherwise be. I'll be interested to see if they have him beat Okada for the belt, how that show draws and if he doesn't win, who Tanahashi will work at this years Dome show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The numbers on Stu's site are what the promotion announced publicly and not the real figure. Pro Wrestling History says this show drew 7,000 fans, not 11,500. The Dome show figures I posted came from the Observer so should be more accurate.At least until a few years ago the official numbers were often complete fantasy numbers and totally unreliable. And the whole "No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy Full House" scale is just plain and simply stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 My good buddy Dave Musgrave shows his work on Kensuke Sasaki: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-sto...he-hall-of-fame It's a nice bio sans analysis. I know there's a summary, but when you point to "five domes" and don't look at them with any thought (Choshu retirement for starters), then it really isn't analysis. Sasaki will eventually get in. His "success" is a list of stuff, and it's easier to grasp a list of titles and cards that it looks like he drew on than it is to wade into the depth. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 The numbers on Stu's site are what the promotion announced publicly and not the real figure. Pro Wrestling History says this show drew 7,000 fans, not 11,500. The Dome show figures I posted came from the Observer so should be more accurate.At least until a few years ago the official numbers were often complete fantasy numbers and totally unreliable. And the whole "No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy Full House" scale is just plain and simply stupid. This is true. Stuart has long admitted to being an "advocate" for NJPW. Not a good data source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Back when I was talking to Stuart regularly he would always acknowledge the attendance claims were juiced but he was going to run with the NJPW numbers anyway. NOAH was the worst at making claims on shows though in that era, they would juice up houses sometimes 4,000 stronger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 SWS was also classic about working numbers, and the NJPW & AJPW fans (in Japan) would take delight in busting their balls over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 Let's also not forget back in the 80's promotions would claim 3,000 or more for Korakuen shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 There were some strange numbers, and I can't figure out where they got pulled from. I mean... maybe Korakuen got remodeled and made smaller at some point, but it sure as heck didn't look like it possible could have been when I was in it (1995 & 1996) which wasn't far removed from the 80s. What the heck would people think when you go from 3000 sell outs to 2100 sellouts? Strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu_chipmunk Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 What the heck would people think when you go from 3000 sell outs to 2100 sellouts? Strange. This obviously has to be credited to larger asses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 This obviously has to be credited to larger asses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 I'll say this: When I found out AJW's home base in the '80s was Korakuen Hall, I was very confused. Whether they just packed the building more or what, I can sort of believe why people would've thought Korakuen changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puropotsy Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 Thanks for taking the time to read it John. I do get the feedback about not suggesting the Choshu retirement for the 1998 Tokyo Dome. I did read through the results of every Dome show that he is listed as main eventing and did see Choshu's series on that card. Is the consensus and your opinion that it was only Choshu's retirement that drew or would Sasaki vs Muto be seen as part of it as well? I do agree that there was not the degree of analysis to the point of going through every card within the write-up and explaining why or why not it might be Sasaki that drew. But I did consider that and do think that to say there was not "any" analysis would be unfair or to say that I "just" said that there were five dome shows. I can see suggesting that more analysis would have been helpful but don't think the statements have to be to that exteme. For any who would like that additional information to determine whether they think Sasaki was a draw on these shows I have listed the results of the six dome shows (including the IWGP tournament) below. From www.wrestlingdata.com 1/4/1995 62,500 1) UWA World Welterweight Title Match Shinjiro Otani © defeated El Samurai 2) IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title Match Norio Honaga © defeated The Great Sasuke 3) Heisei Ishingun (The Great Kabuki, Kuniaki Kobayashi and Akitoshi Saito) defeated Osamu Kido, Takayuki Iizuka and Akira Nogami 4) Koji Kanemoto defeated Yuji Nagata 5) Hiroyoshi Yamamoto Return Match Hiroyoshi Tenzan defeated Manabu Nakanishi 6) Tiger Jeet Singh and Tiger Jeet Singh Jr. defeated Heisei Ishingun (Shiro Koshinaka and Michiyoshi Ohara) 7) Final Countdown BVD Tournament, Semi Final Sting defeated Tony Palmore 8) Final Countdown BVD Tournament, Semi Final Antonio Inoki defeated Gerard Gordeau 9) Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu defeated Heisei Ishingun (Kengo Kimura and Tatsutoshi Goto) 10) Masahiro Chono and Sabu defeated Tatsumi Fujinami and Junji Hirata 11) Hawk Warrior defeated Scott Norton 12) Final Countdown BVD Tournament, Final Antonio Inoki defeated Sting IWGP Tag Team Titles Match 13) Keiji Muto and Hiroshi Hase © defeated Steiner Brothers (Rick Steiner and Scott Steiner) IWGP Heavyweight Title Match 14) Shinya Hashimoto © defeated Kensuke Sasaki 1/4/1998 65,000 1) Kendo KaShin defeated Koji Kanemoto 2) IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title Match Shinjiro Otani © defeated Último Dragón 3) Yuji Nagata defeated Hiroyoshi Tenzan 4) Osamu Nishimura Return Match Tatsumi Fujinami and Osamu Nishimura defeated Manabu Nakanishi and Satoshi Kojima 5) Riki Road Final Message 5 - Match 1 Riki Choshu defeated Kazuyuki Fujita 6) Riki Road Final Message 5 - Match 2 Riki Choshu defeated Yutaka Yoshie 7) Riki Road Final Message 5 - Match 3 Riki Choshu defeated Tatsuhito Takaiwa 8) Riki Road Final Message 5 - Match 4 Takashi Iizuka defeated Riki Choshu 9) Riki Road Final Message 5 - Match 5 Riki Choshu defeated Jushin Thunder Liger 10) Don Frye defeated Naoya Ogawa by referee stoppage 11) Shinya Hashimoto defeated Dennis Lane by referee stoppage 12) Masahiro Chono defeated Shiro Koshinaka 13) IWGP Heavyweight Title Match Kensuke Sasaki © defeated Keiji Muto 1/4/2000 63,500 1) IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Titles Match Shinjiro Otani and Tatsuhito Takaiwa © defeated Kendo KaShin and Minoru Tanaka 2) Shiro Koshinaka defeated Satoshi Kojima 3) Hiroyoshi Tenzan defeated Wild Pegasus 4) IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title Match Jushin Thunder Liger © defeated Koji Kanemoto 5) Manabu Nakanishi defeated Kenzo Suzuki 6) Kazuo Yamazaki Retirement Match Yuji Nagata defeated Kazuo Yamazaki 7) Kimo defeated Kazuyuki Fujita by disqualification 8) Scott Norton defeated Don Frye 9) Rick Steiner defeated Randy Savage 10) Shinya Hashimoto and Takashi Iizuka defeated Naoya Ogawa and Kazunari Murakami 11) Masahiro Chono defeated Keiji Muto 12) IWGP Heavyweight Title Match Kensuke Sasaki defeated Gen'ichiro Tenryu 10/9/2000 65,000 1) Shinya Hashimoto defeated Tatsumi Fujinami 2) Jushin Thunder Liger defeated Super Delfin 3) Don Frye defeated Takashi Iizuka 4) IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title Match Tatsuhito Takaiwa © defeated Koji Kanemoto 5) IWGP Tag Team Titles Match Hiroyoshi Tenzan and Satoshi Kojima © defeated Manabu Nakanishi and Yuji Nagata 6) New Japan vs. All Japan Steve Williams defeated Scott Norton 7) New Japan vs. All Japan Masahiro Chono and Mr. T defeated Shiro Koshinaka and Masanobu Fuchi 8) New Japan vs. All Japan Toshiaki Kawada defeated Kensuke Sasaki 1/4/2001 62,000 1) IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament Kensuke Sasaki defeated Satoshi Kojima 2) IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament Hiroyoshi Tenzan defeated Yuji Nagata 3) Koji Kanemoto and Minoru Tanaka defeated Shinya Makabe and Tatsuhito Takaiwa 4) Takashi Iizuka defeated Kendo KaShin 5) IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament, Semi Final Kensuke Sasaki defeated Masahiro Chono 6) IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament, Semi Final Toshiaki Kawada defeated Hiroyoshi Tenzan 7) Shinjiro Otani and Keiji Muto defeated Jushin Thunder Liger and Manabu Nakanishi (5:44 minutes) 8) Riki Choshu vs. Shinya Hashimoto ended without a winner as a no contest 9) IWGP Heavyweight Title Tournament, Final - IWGP Heavyweight Title Match Kensuke Sasaki defeated Toshiaki Kawada 7/18/2005 62,000 1) Takashi Sugiura, SUWA and Masashi Aoyagi defeated Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, Mitsuo Momota and Katsuhiko Nakajima 2) Mohammed Yone and Takeshi Morishima defeated Tamon Honda and Go Shiozaki 3) Akitoshi Saito, Shiro Koshinaka, Masao Inoue and Kishin Kawabata defeated Akira Taue, Takuma Sano, Junji Izumida and Haruka Eigen 4) Mushiking Terry Debut Match Mushiking Terry defeated Black Mask 5) Global Honored Crown Junior Heavyweight Title Match KENTA defeated Yoshinobu Kanemaru © 6) Global Honored Crown Heavyweight Tag Team Titles Match Minoru Suzuki and Naomichi Marufuji © defeated Jun Akiyama and Makoto Hashi 7) Global Honored Crown Heavyweight Title Match Takeshi Rikio © defeated Hiroshi Tanahashi 8) Gen'ichiro Tenryu defeated Yoshinari Ogawa 9) Kenta Kobashi defeated Kensuke Sasaki 10) Mitsuharu Misawa defeated Toshiaki Kawada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 What the heck would people think when you go from 3000 sell outs to 2100 sellouts? Strange. This obviously has to be credited to larger asses. Classic tofu chipmunk, and in his first post to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 My thought on reading Dave's bio (twice actually) was that Sasaki's pre-prime was better than I remembered, his prime years were basically exactly as I remembered, and his post-prime was actually a bit less impressive than I remembered though I generally think that he was very wise in how he managed himself as a freelancer and I might give him some fringe credit for that which others who are voters or interested in the HoF might not. In general I wish those who are advocates or voters or both would do more work like what Dave did for Sasaki, because even if it lacks in detailed analysis in parts, it's at least something that can pointed to where detailed analysis - and yes criticism - can come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 This was my ballot: I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Ivan Koloff Dick Murdoch Ken Patera Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES Gran Hamada I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES Big Daddy Kendo Nagasaki Jackie Pallo I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES Carlos Colon NON-WRESTLERS Gary Hart Jimmy Hart Jerry Jarrett Takashi Matsunaga Stanley Weston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 I like your ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 6, 2013 Report Share Posted October 6, 2013 Thanks for taking the time to read it John. I do get the feedback about not suggesting the Choshu retirement for the 1998 Tokyo Dome. I did read through the results of every Dome show that he is listed as main eventing and did see Choshu's series on that card. Is the consensus and your opinion that it was only Choshu's retirement that drew or would Sasaki vs Muto be seen as part of it as well? The draw was: 1. Choshu's Retirement 2. New Japan's traditional January Dome show (still a powerful draw at that point) I'm not going to say Sasaki-Mutoh meant nothing. But "IWGP Defense" meant more than "Sasaki", and Mutoh as challenger likely meant more than Sasaki as the holder. He just wasn't that over as Champ, especially not remotely close to the guy who had it before him... or the guy before that... or the guy before that... or the guy before that. Big drop off. I do agree that there was not the degree of analysis to the point of going through every card within the write-up and explaining why or why not it might be Sasaki that drew. But I did consider that and do think that to say there was not "any" analysis would be unfair or to say that I "just" said that there were five dome shows. I can see suggesting that more analysis would have been helpful but don't think the statements have to be to that exteme. I'll take two examples of what I mean by lack of analysis: * There is no attempt to explain what if anything the Hase-Sasaki period with the title meant, or what that era of the title meant in general for the belt. * There is no attempt to explain or think about what the Hellraisers period of the title meant They're just "title reigns", "title changes" and "title matches" in the piece. And that pretty much ties into my comment that "Sasaki will eventually get in. His "success" is a list of stuff, and it's easier to grasp a list of titles and cards that it looks like he drew on than it is to wade into the depth." :/ For any who would like that additional information to determine whether they think Sasaki was a draw on these shows I have listed the results of the six dome shows (including the IWGP tournament) below. It's a data dump. We talked about Sasaki's dome matches back when Chris posted data, walking through all of them to provide additional analysis rather than a dump. It's a bit like a data dump showing Hansen & Spivey vs Gordy & Williams as the "main event" of the 12/07/90 Budokan because they went on last. Are they really the main event? Are they what moved the tickets? No: 1. All Japan Tag League 2. Misawa & Kawada vs Jumbo & Taue (first at Budokan and rematch off a 45 minute draw two months earlier) People just looking at results, not really understanding what was going on in All Japan at the time... maybe it looks like Hansen & Spivey vs Gordy & Williams is the main event. :/ Sasaki has that... a lot of that, pretty much throughout his career. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puropotsy Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 I think I'll just leave it alone here. It's not your opinions on the matter that are an issue to me as I think there are much better reasons in this world to develop ulcers than HOF discussion, it is that it can be presented more respectfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 That was extremely respectful, Dave. I think people could point you to discussions I had with Todd Martin (Shawn Michaels as a WON HOF Candidate) and Meltzer (Hash vs Ogawa) over on Wrestling Classics where I took something that they wrote and responded in detail to every line of their piece(s). I didn't do that to yours, and even when so far as calling it a good bio. It's a good, non-analytical piece. Responded to me with a data dump of Sasaki's dome shows and saying "you guys make up your own minds" without actually analyzing them tends to make the point. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 My final ballot that I sent to Dave on Friday: I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES [Abstain] I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Ivan Koloff Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES [X] I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Cien Caras Karloff Lagarde Blue Panther Villano III Dr. Wagner Sr. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES [Abstain] I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES Carlos Colon Mark Lewin NON-WRESTLERS Howard Finkel Jimmy Hart Jerry Jarrett Takashi Matsunaga Don Owen --- In the end I swapped out Gary Hart for Howard Finkel because if Lennon is in, he has to be as well. I couldn't bring myself to vote for Okerlund yet in part because I don't agree with the argument for him being "the best" or "establishing a role." Interviews were usually done by the lead announcer and he was the guy when the responsibilities were divided up. If this category still had unlimited slots, I'd vote for him, but Finkel is the stronger candidate right now and my other four are locked in place. Yes, Japan was a no vote as opposed to abstention because of Tanahashi and Sasaki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I keep getting the feeling that this is the year for R&R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I've said this before, but they have appeared on the largest number of ballots I've seen. Easily. They also benefit from a fairly weak modern performers field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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