WON HOF 2013 discussion

[W2BTD]

I also find it interesting that you would even make a statement like "the breed of voter that Dave has stacked the deck with". It 's very telling that you would even say something like that. That comes off so condescending and honestly, whiny. "Why don't the masses think like I do?!"

WON HOF voters aren't the "masses". They never have been, nor will they ever be. There are less than 400 of them, a large chunk of them in the business on some level. They are so far removed from the masses that it's not even funny. We sure as hell weren't the "masses" back in 1996 when we were putting the thing together.

 

 

You obviously know I meant "the masses" in the context of the voters themselves.

 

If not, well, I don't know what to say at this point. I'm hoping you're just fucking with me.

[W2BTD]

I also find it interesting that you would even make a statement like "the breed of voter that Dave has stacked the deck with". It 's very telling that you would even say something like that. That comes off so condescending and honestly, whiny. "Why don't the masses think like I do?!"

No, that's not it at all.

 

As noted earlier, several years ago Dave stated that he felt Maeda would, at that point, have never been voted in if he hadn't been inducted in the initial class. As JDW and others pointed out, this is ridiculous, and if he truly believed/believes that, it's an indictment of the voters more than it is of Maeda.

 

In 2013 I have no problem with Todd Martin having a ballot but ten years ago he was a guy arguing Sting should go in solely because he felt '90s American wrestling was under-represented, to the point of messaging Dylan at Wrestling Classics and asking him to start "an affirmative action campaign"" to get him in. He absolutely did not deserve a ballot then but got one because he sent stuff in to the Observer site.

 

I have no idea what Dan Wahlers is doing nowadays or if he ever learned anything, but he got a ballot within months of sending "columns" to the Observer site. He never watched WCW and actively eschewed it because of his childhood WWF loyalty. During that period, he told a reader who emailed him that the reason he voted for IWA Mid-South (during their rise to prominence in the early aughts), which he had never seen a match from, as the worst promotion in the WON Awards because rival Louisville promoter Jim Cornette was always bashing them. He absolutely didn't deserve a ballot then, either.

 

This was the year where Michaels went in. That year there was, no exaggeration, something like 50 to 100 new "writer/journalist" voters that year after the voter pool had been stagnant for several years (not like it is now where Dave is much more open to new voters). Plenty of people noted it was weird at the time.

 

The idea that Dave had stacked the pool of voters with people who shouldn't be voting is not just an insult with nothing of substance behind it.

 

Fair play.

 

Although what I took from EC's post was that he was implying that Dave is intentionally "stacking the deck" by choosing voters who think like he does. If I was wrong, I apologize.

[S.L.L.]

To the second point, historical in this context means his historical run of incredible matches.

You keep using that word...I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Even if I thought Tanahashi was a much, much better worker than I do, his run of HOF-worthy greatness represents such a narrow slice of history, and one that coincides with arguably wrestling's all-time low point as both a business and a form of entertainment. The circumstances required to point to this and say "this is worthy of Hall of Fame induction" would have to be so incredible that even niche dissenters such as myself would be unable to deny it.

 

I think this recent two year stretch solidifies him as a Top 5 big match wrestler of all time

Can you imagine how good a wrestler would have to be to be a top five big match wrestler of all time based primarily on a two-year run? Most of the guys who compete for that spot have a decade - sometimes more than one - in which to build up a massive body of great work to stand as evidence of their worth for consideration.

 

Tanahashi created the equivalent of that...in two years. In fact, no, he created something superior than that when compared to all but a maximum of four wrestlers ever. In two years.

 

Think of the implications of that.

 

I believe he's nipping at the heels of Misawa & Kobashi at this point

Think of how good you have to be for your two years to be nipping at the heels of, say ten Mitsuharu Misawa years (as a rough estimate of Misawa's run as a great big match worker). You would have to be approaching, on average, being five times as good as the best 20% of Misawa's performances from that run. You would have to average that level of quality.

 

Has any wrestler in history ever pulled that off?

 

I don't mean to snark. But when he says....

 

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought.

....I wonder how literally I should take that statement.

[Bix]

I also find it interesting that you would even make a statement like "the breed of voter that Dave has stacked the deck with". It 's very telling that you would even say something like that. That comes off so condescending and honestly, whiny. "Why don't the masses think like I do?!"

No, that's not it at all.

 

As noted earlier, several years ago Dave stated that he felt Maeda would, at that point, have never been voted in if he hadn't been inducted in the initial class. As JDW and others pointed out, this is ridiculous, and if he truly believed/believes that, it's an indictment of the voters more than it is of Maeda.

 

In 2013 I have no problem with Todd Martin having a ballot but ten years ago he was a guy arguing Sting should go in solely because he felt '90s American wrestling was under-represented, to the point of messaging Dylan at Wrestling Classics and asking him to start "an affirmative action campaign"" to get him in. He absolutely did not deserve a ballot then but got one because he sent stuff in to the Observer site.

 

I have no idea what Dan Wahlers is doing nowadays or if he ever learned anything, but he got a ballot within months of sending "columns" to the Observer site. He never watched WCW and actively eschewed it because of his childhood WWF loyalty. During that period, he told a reader who emailed him that the reason he voted for IWA Mid-South (during their rise to prominence in the early aughts), which he had never seen a match from, as the worst promotion in the WON Awards because rival Louisville promoter Jim Cornette was always bashing them. He absolutely didn't deserve a ballot then, either.

 

This was the year where Michaels went in. That year there was, no exaggeration, something like 50 to 100 new "writer/journalist" voters that year after the voter pool had been stagnant for several years (not like it is now where Dave is much more open to new voters). Plenty of people noted it was weird at the time.

 

The idea that Dave had stacked the pool of voters with people who shouldn't be voting is not just an insult with nothing of substance behind it.

 

Fair play.

 

Although what I took from EC's post was that he was implying that Dave is intentionally "stacking the deck" by choosing voters who think like he does. If I was wrong, I apologize.

 

I don't think Dave would ever intentionally do that. Would he do it without realizing it by virtue of the demographics of who would end up as newer voters? Yes.

[jdw]

Also, I'll note that if Tanahashi gets 60% of the votes actually coming from Japan I have no problem with him being voted in since, like I said weeks ago in this thread, what actual Japanese people see as HOF-worthy for Japanese stars is so different from what we see as HOF-worthy for Japanese stars. It's at the point where I'd prefer nobody outside of Japan votes on Japan since they have unique standards.

They have their same biases. They're not different than people here who vote Hennig or Moolah high.

 

John

[evilclown]

I also find it interesting that you would even make a statement like "the breed of voter that Dave has stacked the deck with". It 's very telling that you would even say something like that. That comes off so condescending and honestly, whiny. "Why don't the masses think like I do?!"

What's whiny about it? Do you disagree with that idea? You don't think that Dave includes a number of voters who see the world through the same prism he does? I think that's a natural inclination. More than that I suspect a large number of the voters know very little about Japanese candidates beyond what they read in the Observer.

 

I have no idea who you are. But I'd be curious what qualifies you as a voter for a historical wrestling Hall of Fame? What qualifies anyone?

[Bix]

I might be wrong, but "glorified workrate candidate" may be seeing Tanahashi through Western eyes. It's inevitable that Tanahashi will break the record for both no. of reigns and no of days with the IWGP title. He's been the biggest new star in the industry of the last decade. He's headlined six January 4th Tokyo Domes and about 20 Sumo Hall shows. Who with those list of credentials wouldn't get plenty of votes for the WON HOF by insiders?

In 2013 he's a glorified workrate candidate. Like I said before, he could very well be a great all-around candidate a few years from now.

 

He's been wrestling a lot longer than Kurt Angle had been when he went in but he's really just being pimped on the strength of the last 2-3 years. It's like I've said before when people have argued with me about Angle: It's not just that I didn't think he was as great as everyone else was saying he was. If it was someone who I thought was as good as everyone was saying Angle was, I wouldn't vote for him in the HOF so quickly. Someone made the Jumbo comparison because of the similarities (Olympic wrestlers turned pro wrestling prodigies who were trained by Dory Funk Jr.) and I said well, if Jumbo fell off a cliff as a broken down drug addict by the end of the '70s then no, he wouldn't be an HOFer.

 

As an aside, does the weird misogynistic cultural stuff about him being stabbed by a woman still follow him around at all or are the current/newer fans completely unaware of that? Does it have anything to do with him/NJPW having trouble breaking through to the mainstream as they've rebuilt the company? I remember following that story at the time (his Samurai TV hostess girlfriend was crazy and stabbed him, he wasn't injured worse because he was so roided up and I'm not making that part up, and it became a problem for him in NJPW because it was a woman who stabbed him and Japan is weird) and the politics of it were bizarre.

[goodhelmet]

5570665[/url]']

5570662[/url]' date='Nov 5 2013, 11:25 AM']With all due respect, the reason Rose, Dandy, Dundee etc. have a better reputation here than at large is because we have people who actually watched large amounts of footage of these guys at their peak in the settings n which they would be considered Hall of Fame caliber workers. We have also watched large amounts of Brody, Inoki, Muraco. It's watching large amounts of footage that allows us to form these opinions and compare those wrestlers with other wrestlers from different time periods. You call it retarded. I think if you are doing a Hall of Fame that guys from today be held to the same criteria as workers, draws, etc. from other time periods. You make direct comparisons. Instead you flippantly reject this approach as retarded. If that is living In a Bubble because we actually EXPANDED our wrestling viewing then I am happy to be in that bubble that continuously examines different wrestlers to an insane degree including wrestlers you like. This bubble also has a pretty wide range of diverse opinions.

Stop.

 

It's as if you aren't even reading what i'm typing, so I think it's time to bow out again.

 

You said it as dumb and makes no sense to compare working styles from different time periods. I read your post this morning. Responded this afternoon. For the record, you did not say it we retarded, you said it was dumb. My mistake.

Having said that, the approach is something we have been doing on this board for years. Comparing the working strengths and weaknesses of wrestlers from different time periods to see who we think was better. You may think it is dumb. I think it makes the board and the discussion a better place for it.

[KrisZ]

The reason why I brought up guys like Rose, Dundee, Dandy, & Regal is because you said this.

 

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny. Toss in being the top star during a big turnaround and the iPPV stuff, and it becomes an uncontested layup. Can't fathom a no vote argument that would sway me even .01%.

You mentioned it right there that he gets in purely on work and I brought up 4 guys who aren't sniffing the ballots who would be first ballot HOFers because they are all-time great workers.

 

I said this earlier and hold to it.

 

I like Tanahashi more than most here.....I was someone who championed him being pushed to the main events 10 years ago but his time isn't now. The main problem is the rules of the system and that's not going to change so he is someone like Angle who benefits from those rules.

 

I am definitely going to be curious to see how a 45-year-old Tanahashi's career looks compared to the 35-year-old one.

The system is flawed and he benefits from it and it's one of the main reasons I would never vote for anyone who are still competing at a high level for the HOF. Tanahashi has only had 7 years or so on top and I want to see how the next 10 years of his career go to see if he can maintain his status or become a legend.

[Bix]

For reference:

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000257

 

With six years of seeing ballot patterns, I can tell you as good as waiting till guys are 45 sounds, find out how many U.S. wrestlers over the age of 45 have been voted in after six years of balloting. The only people who can get the votes past the age of 45 are Mexicans for the most part, and that's because they remain headliners at an older age because there is more respect for legendary status there.

Bret Hart would be voted in because his legend grew by what happened to him at the tail end of his career. Misawa would be a lock in voting since Kobashi went in with record numbers. Maeda wouldn't have a prayer if he was on the ballot today. His legend hasn't grown and he's pretty much forgotten since the style his popularized became obsolete. You can argue that's a good reason to extend the age limit, but I think it's a good argument not to, because I feel based on influence while he was active, he should be a lock. Even in Japan, Maeda's influence is forgotten by many these days because the feeling is Funaki and Sakuraba are the modern legends were more influential to business, and Takada is considered the bigger star because his being the face of Pride has kept him a celebrity in the public eye.

 

Wahoo only got in because of the wrestlers of his generation voting for him in such a big margin swayed borderline voters, and it was spurred on by his death. He was not getting in until more wrestlers were involved in the voting. If he was still alive, even with the strong wrestler influence, whether he'd get the votes is touch-and-go. Without the wrestlers, even in death, he wasn't getting the votes.

[Indikator]

Could it be a good or merely interesting idea to compare Maeda to Primo Carnera or guys with a similar short careers like, I don't know... maybe Maurice Tillet?

[Bix]

I wouldn't even say Maeda had a short career since RINGS drew pretty damn well.

[Indikator]

Primo was still active as of 1966 in South America, so it's not like he had a short career either. My thought that started it was that the thing they had in common was that at the end of their careers their style was outdated or in other words just not effective enough anymore for stardom.

[jdw]

As noted earlier, several years ago Dave stated that he felt Maeda would, at that point, have never been voted in if he hadn't been inducted in the initial class. As JDW and others pointed out, this is ridiculous, and if he truly believed/believes that, it's an indictment of the voters more than it is of Maeda.

I don't think this point can be made strongly enough:

 

Bret Hart would be voted in because his legend grew by what happened to him at the tail end of his career. Misawa would be a lock in voting since Kobashi went in with record numbers. Maeda wouldn't have a prayer if he was on the ballot today. His legend hasn't grown and he's pretty much forgotten since the style his popularized became obsolete. You can argue that's a good reason to extend the age limit, but I think it's a good argument not to, because I feel based on influence while he was active, he should be a lock. Even in Japan, Maeda's influence is forgotten by many these days because the feeling is Funaki and Sakuraba are the modern legends were more influential to business, and Takada is considered the bigger star because his being the face of Pride has kept him a celebrity in the public eye.

Which I admittedly didn't respond terribly kind to, but I was also stone cold stunned by such a statement:

 

> Maeda wouldn't have a prayer if he was on

> the ballot today. His legend hasn't grown

> and he's pretty much forgotten since the style

> his popularized became obsolete.

 

Then I think it's safe to say you've handed out ballots to a host of idiots, Dave. If Maeda is "pretty much forgotten" among you voters, it doesn't reflect poorly on Maeda or his "obsolete" style. It reflects poorly on _you_ and the voters you've selected to a HOF you continually pimp.

 

Seriously, that is the single most embarassing thing I've ever read you write. Toyota got in easy in 2002, but with those same voters, Akira Maeda "wouldn't have a prayer" of getting elected. If those are the type of voters you've selected, Dave, it's really time to pack the whole thing in.

 

Perhaps you want to take a step back to reconsider if you're really serious about that comment about your electorate. I you are and stand by it, then it's really time to rethink the whole thing. It truly can't be defended, especially not by the person who's handing out the ballots and making the decision that those voters are "qualified" to vote.

 

John, stunned by such a claim...

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...=7;t=000257;p=1

 

I'd forgotten how entertaining that thread was. Dave pops in 14 posts into it with a red herring that would be obvious if he gave it 1 minute of thought. Then his second post had the Maeda comment, and sadly he wandered off and left Scott Williams to have to carry the Maeda Might Not Be A HOFer torch in ways that were funny. At the same time, Keith & Seven (who I recall who he was) & Mac (I don't recall who he was) & others were having a fun discussion with Todd Martin.

 

Anyway... yeah... I again don't think we should view WON HOF Voters as coming down from the mountain with a pair of tablets.

 

John

[jdw]

I might be wrong, but "glorified workrate candidate" may be seeing Tanahashi through Western eyes. It's inevitable that Tanahashi will break the record for both no. of reigns and no of days with the IWGP title. He's been the biggest new star in the industry of the last decade. He's headlined six January 4th Tokyo Domes and about 20 Sumo Hall shows. Who with those list of credentials wouldn't get plenty of votes for the WON HOF by insiders?

If you go back a few pages, his drawing record and time as an ace is being used as a negative, because it doesn't stack up to others in the past. Arguments such as, only TWO Sumo Hall G1 shows per year now? Pffft, back in the day they were doing five! Of course this ignores where New Japan was previous to this run.

1991 - 3

1992 - 3

1993 - 7

1994 - 5

1995 - 5

1996 - 5

1997 - 3

1998 - 3

1999 - 3

2000 - 3

2001 - 3

2002 - 2

2003 - 3

2004 - 3

2005 - 2

2006 - 2 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ)

2007 - 2

2008 - 2

2009 - 2 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ)

2010 - 2

2011 - 1 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ)

2012 - 1 (Tanahashi IWGP Champ)

2013 - 2

 

So Tanahashi was the Ace when they couldn't get it back up to 3 Sumo Hall shows for G1, and then the Ace when they dropped from 2 shows to 1.

 

They "expanded" all of one non-sellout show this year.

 

I'm not sure this helps.

 

John

[jdw]

I see Bix linked to the old Maeda thread as well.

 

John

[jdw]

Could it be a good or merely interesting idea to compare Maeda to Primo Carnera or guys with a similar short careers like, I don't know... maybe Maurice Tillet?

1937-53 French Angel

1946-62 Primo

1978-99 Maeda

1998-13 Angle

1999-13 Tanahashi

 

I'm not entirely sure that Maeda had the short career.

 

As far as being "on top", I talked about it in the thread linked to above since Scott short changed the length of time Maeda was on top. It wasn't a short time. Longer than Tanahashi has hit yet, and longer than say Edge hit... longer than Trip had hit when he went in.

 

John

[kjh]

So Tanahashi was the Ace when they couldn't get it back up to 3 Sumo Hall shows for G1, and then the Ace when they dropped from 2 shows to 1.

 

They "expanded" all of one non-sellout show this year.

 

I'm not sure this helps.

I wasn't arguing in favour of Tanahashi myself, but I can see how from a native Japanese voter perspective they'd see him as the slam dunk candidate Meltzer is pushing him as from a credentials standpoint.

[jdw]

The native perspective might be a bit Stingish:

 

He's a really big star!

 

Of course mixing in he's the latest version of One Of The Greatest Worker Of All-Time, of which I think we've all lost track of since Angle came along.

[mookeighana]

For reference:

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000257

 

With six years of seeing ballot patterns, I can tell you as good as waiting till guys are 45 sounds, find out how many U.S. wrestlers over the age of 45 have been voted in after six years of balloting. The only people who can get the votes past the age of 45 are Mexicans for the most part, and that's because they remain headliners at an older age because there is more respect for legendary status there.

I know this was Dave's comment many years ago but I still took a look...

 

Wrestlers that were alive, above 45 years old at time of induction after 1996..

 

2012 Mick McManus (age 92; died in May 2013)

2009 Konnan (age 46)

2009 The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton, Stan Lane and Dennis Condrey) (average age about 55)

2009 Masa Saito (age 68)

2006 Hiroshi Hase (age 46)

2005 The Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, and Buddy Roberts) (average age about 51, Gordy had died and Roberts died this year)

2004 Bob Backlund (age 55)

2001 Black Shadow (age 81; died in March 2007)

2001 Lizmark (age 52)

1998 Dos Caras (age 48)

1997 Édouard Carpentier (age 71; died in October 2010)

 

Alfonso Morales (age 64) and Jim Ross (age 48) were inducted as well while they were alive but over the age of 45.

 

Living and inducted under the age 45 from 1997 onwards: John Cena, Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Jr., The Rock, Aja Kong, Masakatsu Funaki, Paul Heyman, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Masahiro Chono, Kazushi Sakuraba, Último Dragón, The Undertaker, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Manami Toyota, Kenta Kobashi, Bull Nakano, El Satánico, Akira Hokuto, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Shinya Hashimoto, Lioness Asuka, Jushin Liger, Keiji Mutoh, Chigusa Nagayo, El Hijo del Santo, Toshiaki Kawada

 

Posthumous inductees (after the initial 1996 class): Henri Deglane, Hans Schmidt, Gus Sonnenberg, Lou Albano, Kent Walton, Steve Williams, Curtis Iaukea, Wladek Zbyszko, Roy Shire, Everett Marshall, Bill Miller, Martín Karadagian, Tom Packs, Evan Lewis, Paul Bowser, Eddie Guerrero, Tarzán Lόpez, Earl Caddock, Jack Curley, Wahoo McDaniel, Martin Burns, Diablo Velasco, Bill Longson, Frank Sexton, Sandor Szabo, Jimmy Lennon, William Muldoon (Dr. Death would have been 52 and Eddie would have been only 39 years old at time of induction)

 

I couldn't find the birthdate of Francisco Flores (UWA promoter).

[tofu_chipmunk]

For reference:

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000257

 

With six years of seeing ballot patterns, I can tell you as good as waiting till guys are 45 sounds, find out how many U.S. wrestlers over the age of 45 have been voted in after six years of balloting. The only people who can get the votes past the age of 45 are Mexicans for the most part, and that's because they remain headliners at an older age because there is more respect for legendary status there.

I know this was Dave's comment many years ago but I still took a look...

 

Wrestlers that were alive, above 45 years old at time of induction after 1996..

 

2012 Mick McManus (age 92; died in May 2013)

2009 Konnan (age 46)

2009 The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton, Stan Lane and Dennis Condrey) (average age about 55)

2009 Masa Saito (age 68)

2006 Hiroshi Hase (age 46)

2005 The Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, and Buddy Roberts) (average age about 51, Gordy had died and Roberts died this year)

2004 Bob Backlund (age 55)

2001 Black Shadow (age 81; died in March 2007)

2001 Lizmark (age 52)

1998 Dos Caras (age 48)

1997 Édouard Carpentier (age 71; died in October 2010)

 

Alfonso Morales (age 64) and Jim Ross (age 48) were inducted as well while they were alive but over the age of 45.

 

Living and inducted under the age 45 from 1997 onwards: John Cena, Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Jr., The Rock, Aja Kong, Masakatsu Funaki, Paul Heyman, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Masahiro Chono, Kazushi Sakuraba, Último Dragón, The Undertaker, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Manami Toyota, Kenta Kobashi, Bull Nakano, El Satánico, Akira Hokuto, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Shinya Hashimoto, Lioness Asuka, Jushin Liger, Keiji Mutoh, Chigusa Nagayo, El Hijo del Santo, Toshiaki Kawada

 

Posthumous inductees (after the initial 1996 class): Henri Deglane, Hans Schmidt, Gus Sonnenberg, Lou Albano, Kent Walton, Steve Williams, Curtis Iaukea, Wladek Zbyszko, Roy Shire, Everett Marshall, Bill Miller, Martín Karadagian, Tom Packs, Evan Lewis, Paul Bowser, Eddie Guerrero, Tarzán Lόpez, Earl Caddock, Jack Curley, Wahoo McDaniel, Martin Burns, Diablo Velasco, Bill Longson, Frank Sexton, Sandor Szabo, Jimmy Lennon, William Muldoon (Dr. Death would have been 52 and Eddie would have been only 39 years old at time of induction)

 

I couldn't find the birthdate of Francisco Flores (UWA promoter).

 

For reference's sake, I believe the names that I bolded were "veterans' committee" inductees via fiat. Carpentier, Muldoon, and Lennon were inducted in 1997, before voting took place. It does still shoot a large hole in the "couldn't be voted in above the age of 45" argument, though.

[Al]

I don't understand Dave's argument. That a large number of wrestlers wouldn't get inducted if you had to wait until they turned 45? That really sounds ridiculous on its face.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd have thought that if you made it over 45s only, it might help to filter out voters who probably shouldn't have a vote in the first place -- it would assume at least a baseline knowledge.

[jdw]

I did this back when the age discussions were being bounced around after Angle. Here's when people would have been eligible under various rules. My recollection is that I included everyone from the original class who wouldn't have made it under at least one set of age/debut requirements.

 

Looks like through the Class of 2004, so I'll quickly add the 2005-2012 folks to it. I haven't added people currently on the ballot, like Tanahashi.

 

Class '96 - Initial Class - Non-Voting

Class '97 - Non-Voting Year

 

40 Years Old or 20 Years After Debut

1961 Mick McManus

1965 Hans Schmidt

1973 Lou Albano

1977 King Curtis Iaukea

1982 Masa Saito

1985 Buddy Roberts

1989 Bob Backlund

1992 Dennis Condrey

1992 Randy Savage

1993 Hulk Hogan

1993 Rick Steamboat

1993 Stan Lane

1994 Atsushi Onita

1994 Ted Dibiase

1995 Dynamite Kid

1995 Jackie Sato

1995 Terry Gordy

1996 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible)

1996 Bret Hart

1996 Satoru Sayama

-------------------------

1997 Jaguar Yokota

1997 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible)

1997 Road Warrior Hawk

1997 Vader

-------------------------

1998 Akira Maeda

1998 Devil Masami

1999 Negro Casas

2000 Chigusa Nagayo

2000 Dump Matsumoto

2000 Lioness Asuka

2000 Road Warrior Animal (Road Warriors eligible)

2000 Steve Williams

2001 Hiroshi Hase

2001 Mitsuharu Misawa

2001 Nobuhiko Takada

2002 El Hijo Del Santo

2002 Keiji Mutoh

2002 Toshiaki Kawada

2002 Undertaker

2003 Bull Nakano

2003 Masahiro Chono

2003 Shawn Michaels

2004 Jushin Liger

2004 Konnan

2004 Shinya Hashimoto

2004 Steve Austin

2005 Akira Hokuto

2005 Masakatsu Funaki

2005 Mick Foley

2005 Paul Heyman

2006 Aja Kong

2006 Chris Benoit

2006 Ultimo Dragon

2007 Eddie Guerrero

2007 Kenta Kobashi

2007 Manami Toyota

2008 Kurt Angle

2009 Kazushi Sakuraba

2009 Rey Mysterio

2009 Triple H

2010 Chris Jericho

2012 The Rock

2017 John Cena

 

 

 

45 Years Old or 20 Years After Debut

1969 Hans Schmidt

1973 Lou Albano

1982 King Curtis Iaukea

1985 Masa Saito

1988 Buddy Roberts

1993 Bob Backlund

1993 Dennis Condrey

1993 Randy Savage

1994 Atsushi Onita

1994 Stan Lane

1995 Dynamite Kid

1995 Jackie Sato

1995 Ted Dibiase

1995 Terry Gordy

1996 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible)

1996 Bret Hart

1996 Rick Steamboat

1996 Satoru Sayama

-------------------------

1997 Jaguar Yokota

1997 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible)

-------------------------

1998 Akira Maeda

1998 Devil Masami

1998 Hulk Hogan

1999 Negro Casas

2000 Chigusa Nagayo

2000 Dump Matsumoto

2000 Lioness Asuka

2001 Mitsuharu Misawa

2001 Nobuhiko Takada

2002 El Hijo Del Santo

2002 Road Warrior Animal

2002 Road Warrior Hawk (Road Warriors eligible)

2002 Steve Williams

2002 Toshiaki Kawada

2002 Vader

2003 Bull Nakano

2003 Shawn Michaels

2004 Jushin Liger

2004 Keiji Mutoh

2004 Masahiro Chono

2004 Shinya Hashimoto

2005 Akira Hokuto

2005 Masakatsu Funaki

2006 Aja Kong

2006 Chris Benoit

2006 Hiroshi Hase

2006 Mick Foley

2006 Undertaker

2007 Eddie Guerrero

2007 Konnan

2007 Manami Toyota

2007 Paul Heyman

2007 Ultimo Dragon

2008 Kenta Kobashi

2009 Rey Mysterio

2009 Steve Austin

2010 Chris Jericho

2012 Triple H

2013 Kazushi Sakuraba

2013 Kurt Angle

2016 The Rock

2020 John Cena

 

 

 

45 Years Old or 25 Years After Debut

1966 Mick McManus

1970 Hans Schmidt

1978 Lou Albano

1982 King Curtis Iaukea

1987 Masa Saito

1990 Buddy Roberts

1994 Bob Backlund

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1997 Dennis Condrey

1997 Randy Savage

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1998 Hulk Hogan

1998 Rick Steamboat

1998 Stan Lane

1999 Atsushi Onita

1999 Ted Dibiase

2000 Dynamite Kid

2000 Jackie Sato

2000 Terry Gordy

2001 Bobby Eaton (MX eligible)

2001 Bret Hart

2001 Satoru Sayama

2002 Jaguar Yokota

2002 Michael Hayes (Freebirds eligible)

2002 Road Warrior Hawk

2002 Vader

2003 Akira Maeda

2003 Devil Masami

2004 Negro Casas

2005 Chigusa Nagayo

2005 Dump Matsumoto

2005 Lioness Asuka

2005 Road Warrior Animal (Road Warriors eligible)

2005 Steve Williams

2006 Hiroshi Hase

2006 Mitsuharu Misawa

2006 Nobuhiko Takada

2007 El Hijo Del Santo

2007 Keiji Mutoh

2007 Toshiaki Kawada

2007 Undertaker

2008 Bull Nakano

2008 Masahiro Chono

2008 Shawn Michaels

2009 Jushin Liger

2009 Konnan

2009 Shinya Hashimoto

2009 Steve Austin

2010 Akira Hokuto

2010 Masakatsu Funaki

2010 Mick Foley

2010 Paul Heyman

2011 Aja Kong

2011 Chris Benoit

2011 Ultimo Dragon

2012 Eddie Guerrero

2012 Kenta Kobashi

2012 Manami Toyota

2013 Kurt Angle

2014 Kazushi Sakuraba

2014 Rey Mysterio

2014 Triple H

2015 Chris Jericho

2017 The Rock

2022 John Cena

[Matt D]

I still don't think you guys should break your backs over this like you do. I get that it's the "best we have" but it's so haphazard. Watching this is great popcorn internet viewing, though, so I'm kind of glad that you do.