Best "Big Man" In History?

[Loss]

Meaning that he has the advantage of being first so he's kind of considered the default best.

 

I really think a large part of Andre's legacy is smoke-and-mirrors stuff about drinking so many beers and not being very giving for guys he didn't like. I don't feel like anyone has really tried to make the case for him as an in-ring performer, or if they have, I haven't seen it. I think he was better than I gave him credit for at one time in my fandom for sure, but I haven't seen anyone try to tie all of his matches together and really compare him to other wrestlers that would make a good comparison, like Undertaker or Vader. So he becomes the best because he was the first and because "he's Andre".

[DR Ackermann]

Good point. Speaking of Japanese wrestling, I completely overlooked Baba. He has to be in the discussion.

[Loss]

Has anyone here watched a lot of Don Leo Jonathan? He seems like a name that should at least be brought up and batted around, regardless of where he ends up. Just based on his rep, he seems like he was stylistically closer to Vader than Andre, but I don't know how accurate that is.

[Matt D]

I think that is way off to be honest. All through the 90s and 00s Andre's work was considered poor with but a few exceptions. It's only in the last few years that it's been reexamined and the small things are far more appreciated now than they were years ago. It's About as far opposite of Tiger Mask as you could possibly get.

[Loss]

I think the re-examination has been minimal though. Has anyone really watched and commented on a ton of Andre matches? I've seen occasional ones, yes.

[DR Ackermann]

I get the comparison you are making and I think its accurate in some ways, but the results are different. The Tiger Mask footage has people saying he was overrated and has an undeserved reputation whereas old Andre footage impresses people and has them saying, "Wow, he was a lot better than I thought. This isn't the same Andre I saw on TV as a kid."

[Bierschwale]

Good point. Speaking of Japanese wrestling, I completely overlooked Baba. He has to be in the discussion.

 

I considered mentioning Baba, but I think that he's more about significance than work which has become the thread split, and he can't compete with Andre there.

[Loss]

Point taken that additional watching has been favorable to Andre and unfavorable to Tiger Mask. But really, the segment of people that considered him bad was pretty small, wasn't it? Either way, I don't think Andre's work is something that has been discussed all that much. Most of the talk about Andre is about all the beers he could drink in one sitting.

[Matt D]

It's us basically.

[DR Ackermann]

Don't those stories come from old wrestlers though? The same guys who when talking about work, talk about Dory Funk as an all-time great worker? Would we really put much into what they had to say about him as a worker either way?

[DR Ackermann]

 

Good point. Speaking of Japanese wrestling, I completely overlooked Baba. He has to be in the discussion.

 

I considered mentioning Baba, but I think that he's more about significance than work which has become the thread split, and he can't compete with Andre there.

 

 

I've seen more good Baba than I have Andre. The best Baba match (vs Billy Robinson) I've seen was better than the best Andre (vs Stan Hansen) I've seen.

[Loss]

Don't those stories come from old wrestlers though? The same guys who when talking about work, talk about Dory Funk as an all-time great worker? Would we really put much into what they had to say about him as a worker either way?

 

Yeah, and that's kind of my point. You can say that for a lot of guys. There's a lot of stories about Flair getting naked on planes and running up crazy tabs at bars, but there's also tons of debate and discussion of him as a worker, and not just in our corner of the Internet. I haven't seen that for Andre. It's possible if there was a deep dive into Andre's matches that he'd come out looking better than Vader. Any perceptions can change with additional viewing. I just haven't really seen a coherent case made for Andre the worker that has gotten traction.

[Timbo Slice]

Baba never saw himself as a special attraction wrestler, but rather the ace of his promotion, which made it kind of weird when you see him and he's working straight-up matches with Beyer and Billy and what have you. In his heyday, though, Baba was truly one of the best workers of his era.

 

Andre was always the special attraction type and was rarely in a straight up match where his wrestling skill was front and center, and his match style to me was limited in that standpoint. That being said? Can't think of a better attraction-style match guy than him, bar none. Absolutely exceptional. When he was in a big match, he knew how to make it seem like a big-time spectacle.

 

What made Vader great was that he'd have matches with these big guys where he'd go 50/50, but then against the smaller guys, he'd be willing to give them a lot to show he was fallible. He's an underrated seller and knew his times for control and cutoffs. His unique offense definitely stood out, but I just remember him making guys like Sting and Dustin look absolutely king-sized by playing to their strengths and letting them look like a million bucks.

[goc]

I wish I still had the matches of Andre from Japan and Canada from the 70s that I got from a torrent like 3 or 4 years ago. Lots of rare stuff I had never seen before and Andre looked VERY athletic and agile very early in his career. It's unfair to do a straight comparison with Andre and Vader or any of the other popular big man names that might come up because most of Andre's easily accessible footage comes way after his prime while all of Vader's prime is what is going to be used for his argument and not any of the stuff he has done in the last decade.

[DR Ackermann]

I see what you're saying. I'm not arguing definitively for Andre or Vader over the other. I've been really impressed by both and disappointed too. I've seen some Andre that points to him being really great in his prime, but on the other hand, if I had only seen Vader vs Sting I would have the same feeling.

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss, the simple reason why no one has been able to tie together Andre as an in-ring performer is because:

 

1. The majority of his peak work was 70s and early 80s, which is generally slept on

 

2. Andre worked EVERYWHERE, every territory -- shit, he even turns up on the Lucha set. Footage is out there, but you could count the number of people who'd seen all of it on two hands (likely in the world).

 

3. I think Andre's strengths as a worker, even in his prime, are more nuanced and less "obvious" than Vader's strengths.

 

So I'm not sure, even here on PWO, whether we have anyone quite in the position to make the case. I can see Andre coming up in some more of the 70s AWA stuff I'll be watching soon for my territories thread (there's an Andre match vs. Stevens and Bockwinkel from around 1974 that I'm INTRIGUED to see) and Andre will definitely crop up in the Mid-Atlantic and GCW stuff too. I can keep a special eye out for him.

 

But the point is that we have Vader's work all in four main places (AWA, New Japan, WCW, WWF) and most fans will be keener to jump into 90s footage than 70s footage in general.

 

I'm not saying it's not true that Vader overall was the better worker, I'm just saying that the case isn't being put forward for Andre because there's no one to make it.

[goc]

This is the only match I have left from the Andre pack I mentioned and it's already on youtube.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOOyxdEHZKU

 

This match is from 1972 and it's over 35 minutes long. This match displays that early in his career Andre had plenty of stamina, he could wrestle, he could sell, he was far more athletic and mobile than people think of when they think of old Andre in 1987.

[Matt D]

I have more to say about Andre vis a vis Tiger Mask and perceptions (though I'd argue: really, out side of the people who did the 80s DVDVR project and a few people who talk to then, has the perception changed on Tiger Mask? Has it changed on Brody past us? Etc.), but I've got family stuff going on til tomorrow. We'll see where the conversation is then?

[JerryvonKramer]

Seems like there were about 20 posts made while I was writing that longer one. Just wanted to add that the Titans crew will be watching some Don Leo Jonathan matches when we do our 1950s special in a few months. Been planning that for over 9 months at this point. That'll be taking in matches from "The Encyclopedia of Pro Wrestling" set, 1949-1960. Quite a bit of Don Leo on there so it is not like footage does not exist. We'll likely look at him vs. Verne Gange in the final listing, but there's also matches of his vs. Otto Wanz, Roy McClarity, and Antonio Rocca.

[Matt D]

I will say that for both Andre and Tiger Mask, I think it's a combination of far more footage being more easily available so people could "see for themselves," (which helps Andre's earlier career) combined with criteria changing (which hugely helps Andre's later career).

 

Past MAYBE John Tenta, I think Andre is the deepest and cleanest opposite of Tiger Mask there is.

[BillThompson]

The reason I say Vader over Andre is simply because I haven't seen as much great Andre as I have Vader. I'm not sure if I'd ever be able to see as much great Andre as great Vader, because even if all the old footage of Andre were available I still don't think it would stack up to what Vader had to offer. Vader was a great bumper, had great stamina, could work diverse styles, was a top guy in different parts of the world, had a super impressive variety of offense, and so on and so forth. I'm not taking anything away from prime Andre, because I've been very impressed with the prime Andre that I've seen. That being said, I still feel prime Vader is better than prime Andre, and that not prime Vader completely blows away not prime Andre.

[Childs]

Renewed love and appreciation for Andre was a major theme of the New Japan DVDVR set. The Hansen and Khan matches give a sense of what a mobile Andre could do, and I wouldn't hesitate to call them classics. Some of his other matches from the set show how expressive he was and how well he connected to a crowd even when he started to slip athletically. I agree the Vader comparison is tough because of the disparity in footage, but what we have suggests Andre was a really great wrestler in his prime.

 

I don't consider Baba a "big man" in the Andre, Vader sense. His height helped him, obviously, but he wrestled as a classic ace, not as a guy whose size was the dominant factor in his matches. I'd say Hansen and Brody wrestled more as "big men" than Baba. And if we're counting Hansen (which I probably wouldn't), he'd be my choice.

[BillThompson]

The person I think really needs justification for being mentioned is Undertaker. He spent the majority of his career being average to mediocre, and I'd argue that even at his best he was never a truly great worker.

[Loss]

I think Undertaker has been a very good big show performer for most of his career, but I also think he's a little on the overrated side.

[WingedEagle]

I was thinking about this recently as I just watched Vader vs. Kazuo Yamazaki on the '93 Yearbook. Its not original, but man, Vader was awesome. If you can argue for Hansen or Taue or someone like that as a big guy I could be persuaded, but from how I envision bigs Vader is far and away above the pack. He had such an incredible ability to sell and bump for opponents of any size without losing any of his aura as a brutal, overpowering monster. I haven't seen his work in the AWA or really pre-WCW/NJ at all, so I don't know how far we can extend his run of excellence. But I've got a tough time thinking of someone with a longer list of good or better matches.