G-1 Climax

[Russellmania]

which g1 had the really good muto/chono final? was it 91 or 92?

[Loss]

'91, although '92 had the Rude/Chono final which was also pretty great. Off the top of my head, '93 had Tenryu/Hashimoto, Hase/Hashimoto, Chono/Hase all being really good. I'm actually going to be watching some stuff from the '99 G-1 over the next few days, although I'm not expecting it to be quite at that level.

[Grimmas]

Damn it. Wait till the whole damn thing ends before you decide how great it is. Even then, give it a few months to reflect. I hate this hyperbolic shit.

[Steenalized]

If Dave, in his vast experience of watching wrestling, thinks this is the best tournament ever, that's one thing. His matter-of-fact statement that it is the best ever is excruciating.

[Loss]

It's hard for me to be too critical of hyperbole when I called this year's Elimination Chamber match one of the top three in the history of WWE right after watching it, but that was kind of my clue to back off on doing that sort of thing. To be fair, when I watch wrestling in real time as opposed to watching old stuff, I tend to vastly overrate it in the moment. When his whole mantra is that doing so is the only right way to watch wrestling, I can see why he overrates lots of stuff.

[Zenjo]

I've watched all of the G1's from 1991 to 2011. Most of them are available in complete form, and I've seen all available footage. At some stage in future I'll watch the recent editions, but the tournaments are so damned long these days. It took me 4 months to slog through 2011 and I haven't been able to face doing it again yet.

 

The inaugural tournament in 1991 was a classic. If it hadn't been such a huge success there's no way the G1 would've lasted. 92 and 93 were knockout format, which didn't work so well. There are individual matches worth checking out rather than the tournament as a whole. 94 and 95 both had one strong block, and one weaker one. That actually does work out well overall. 96 was a highly regarded year. 97 was so short it felt like a one night tournament. 98 was comfortably the best of the 4 knockout G1's, and one of the best overall. 99 had some decent matches, but no classics and felt repetitive.

 

2000 had a lot of clipping and was poorly received. 01 was another year with lopsided blocks in terms of match quality. 02 was a fine tournament and 03 was even better. Then 04 was my all time favourite. So many good matches and stylistic variety on each card. 05 was certainly long. Some highlights on the way, but definitely bloated. 06 was lower key than normal, a solid event. 07 had lots of unwelcome sports entertainment BS. Considering the decline of Puroresu in the second half of the 00's I'd say 08 was a good year for the G1. 09 sucked. 10 was too long but wasn't bad. 11 lasted an eternal 91 matches and featured no less than 26 doses of either Wataru Inoue, Strong Man or Hideo Saito.

 

I ranked the first 20 editions a few years ago. It's been a number of years since I've watched some of these so my opinions may well change on a rewatch.

 

Shorter Format

1) 1991

2) 1998

3) 1996

4) 1995

5) 1993

6) 2006

7) 1992

8) 1997

 

Longer Format

1) 2004

2) 2003

3) 2002

4) 1994

5) 2001

6) 2008

7) 2005

8) 1999

9) 2010

10) 2000

11) 2007

12) 2009

 

Plus you can add in:

 

Extremely Long Format

1) 12,13 or 14

2) 12,13 or 14

3) 12,13 or 14

4) 2011

[Childs]

I'd rate the '91 G-1 and the '94 Carny as my favorites. Haven't seen any of this year's G-1 so I can't compare. But I agree that pro wrestling history isn't exactly silly with great tournaments. So it's at least possible this could be one of the best (I wouldn't say 2013 reached that level, though I really dug a few of the matches).

 

I don't take Dave's pronouncement seriously because I know it's not based on any serious analysis. But I don't begrudge him his enthusiasm either.

[soup23]

I have watched six shows in four days which is no easy task. The shows have all been decent to great but not once have I told myself that I am watching the greatest wrestling tournament of all time. I haven't watched a match yet that I would put above Misawa vs. Kawada from the 95 Carnival, much less the Kawada vs. Taue and Misawa vs. Taue final from those shows. I think the hyperbole is really unfortunate because these are good shows, but seeing constant reviews saying that a match was alright and then giving it *** is taking me to my breaking point. Nagata vs. Fale being ranked at ***3/4 in the VOW review of that show is the most egregious example. There wasn't a cohesive story at all in that match and while I didn't hate it as much as Dylan, it sure as fuck wasn't on the brink of being a great match. It is silly in some sense to get worked up over a star rating, but I aspire to remember a decent amount of the matches I have classified as great in my eyes. If multiples star ratings are being thrown out, this gets muddled. A *** match is still "good" and not an embarrassment on any show.

[stomperspc]

I have watched six shows in four days which is no easy task. The shows have all been decent to great but not once have I told myself that I am watching the greatest wrestling tournament of all time. I haven't watched a match yet that I would put above Misawa vs. Kawada from the 95 Carnival, much less the Kawada vs. Taue and Misawa vs. Taue final from those shows. I think the hyperbole is really unfortunate because these are good shows, but seeing constant reviews saying that a match was alright and then giving it *** is taking me to my breaking point.

 

The hyperbole and absolute statements surrounding this tournament are a lot to take. It doesn't lessen my enjoyment of any of it and good for the people who are enjoying it that much, but it is annoying to be told that a tournament/match/show is "clearly" the best of all time minutes after it has ended (or before it has ended in this case!) without any sort of deeper analysis behind it. As mentioned, that is unfortunate because it has been a good tournament and there have been good matches, but that is being overshadowed by people making grandiose statements.

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread that there were just a few matches that I might be inclined to watch back again after the tournament is done. With two shows left to go, I stick by that. There are more than a few tournaments throughout history that have that kind of match quality. I wouldn't say that the undercard matches have been the difference maker either as while there have been some good ones, there have also been a whole slew of forgettable ones. When reading Meltzer's recap in the WON last night, there were matches I don't even remember at all that he was labeling as great matches. I just don't see it. Its been a good tournament with some quality matches (which is more than enough for me), but like Chad said I never once felt like I have been watching something legendary.

 

Meltzer also said this:

 

 

As far as a complete package of working in the ring and charisma, Nakamura and Tanahashi are right now the best in the world. Nobody in WWE on the roster right now is close.

 

I like Nakamura a lot but again, I wish he'd stop resorting to making these absolute assertions as if they are gospel.

[pol]

Dave making hyperbolic decrees as if they're objective fact doesn't even really bother me in itself, what really bugs me is how evident it is that the members of more hivemindy internet wrestling communities feel they can freely disregard/mock dissenting opinions without actually arguing the case because they have Dave Meltzer on their side, so obviously they must be right. See the reactions to Okada/Tanahashi not being on the WKO100 on some forums, for example.

[Tim Cooke]

Beyond Dave using an excessive amount of hyperbole (because let’s face it, we all do it to some extent), it’s a no win situation in even trying to argue the merits of other tournaments because Dave is throwing out star ratings like they are going to be extinct at years end. Even in looking back at the match ratings for other excellent tournaments (1991 G-1, 1993 Champions Carnival, 1996 G-1, 1996 J-Crown), they just aren’t going to add up to pure amount of ****1/4+ matches that he has handed out in 2013 and 2014. That’s not even getting into the argument that he won’t look back and at the very *least* compare and contrast past great tournament matches with today’s matches.

[Sean Liska]

I've enjoyed the tournament a lot but when you're going ****3/4 for a Nakamura-Ishii match that to me was a standard big NJPW match with some cool stuff at the end, it's hard to keep up with the enthusiasm.

[moazzam23]

Naito/Makabe and Naito/Goto both being in the 4 star range is what stumps me. Honestly don't think either of them were much better than your average 2 segment Raw match. I get that Meltzer really likes the type of match that these three guys usually have, but even then 4 1/4 stars seems like a stretch.

[pol]

I remember really liking Makabe/Naito. Thought it was maybe the best of the typical NJPW main event style matches in this G1 - kind of a better version of Makabe/Okada which was also very good. Will have to rewatch.

[stomperspc]

So the finals are set. Nakamura vs. Okada in the finals and Tanahashi vs. Styles in the consolation (3rd place) match. I am sort of surprised they went with those pairings. It became evident several shows back that those four would be the "final four" but I figured they were building to Nakamura vs. Okada at the Tokyo Dome and wouldn't do it here first. Those matches are arguably the biggest matches NJPW has left on paper so it is a tad odd they would give them away with such little time to promote them.

 

The show was a fun one. They laid out the card just as they should have with the five matches that did not have potential finals implications before intermission and the five that did after. The first half of the show was pretty fun and felt like my normal under card in the sense that nothing was really at stake. Thought Anderson had his best performance of the tournament versus Naito. I thought Ishii vs. Nagata was better than Ishii vs. Shibata from this year. Both matches were laid out similarly but the Nagata match clicked more.

 

The second half had a playoff feel to it, at least as much as pro wrestling can imitate that. Gallows/Shibata was nothing special. The finish would have been surprising but Shibata more or less had to lose if they wanted Tanahashi and Nakamura in the top two matches at the Seibu Dome. The only other way to get there would have been for both Tanahashi and Nakamura to win their matches and it didn't seem likely that they would play it that straight forward. Nakamura vs. Fale was their usual solid/good match. Nakamura was way over. Styles/Makabe was okay though there were a couple of rough spots and Makabe is not one of my favorites. I thought the final two matches were strong. The work was good but the drama really brought them to another level. I liked Tanahashi/DBS Jr. a tad more. Suzuki & Okada did a fine job creating a sense of doubt that Okada would win with all of the arm work. They worked the match in a way that at least led me to believe there was a chance Okada would be too hurt to hit the Rainmaker and Suzuki would pull off the upset.

[Shining Wiz]

I wonder, if I understood the commentary, if the build would have been more obvious?

 

Either way, the finals look like a great card. Hopefully get to watch it on the flight home Monday.

[Timbo Slice]

Nak/Okada has been building for years. They really haven't faced each other that much. It's a good matchup. Nak should go over.

[pol]

Re: Dave stuff, is the issue here that Dave doesn't look at matches as an art form (or whatever term you want to use), but as a spectacle to be enjoyed in the moment? I think there's a philosophical difference at work. Here the tendency is to look at a match like a film, a painting or a piece of music - an aesthetic object for which historical context can be interesting and informative, but isn't necessary for appreciation. I think most hardcore wrestling fans look at matches like that at least to some extent. Dave is on the extreme other end of the scale though - for Dave this is self-evidently the best tournament ever because it's the one he's enjoyed the most in the moment, which is what wrestling is all about to him. To look back and rewatch stuff for context would be to miss the point because that's not what wrestling is about. In criticising his hyperbolic gut reactions are we missing the point that he just looks at wrestling very differently from most here?

 

If this is the case though, I guess it's questionable what value there is in proclaiming something the "greatest ever" when it essentially boils down to "the one I enjoyed the most on first viewing". I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Dave looks at wrestling, but too many people assume his opinions on matches are based on serious consideration and analysis, when serious consideration and analysis would really be anathema to the way he appreciates them.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ishii/Nakamura was a decent bout. Like most NJPW matches, the body of the match was nothing to write home about, but once it got into the stretch run there were some great spots. I loved the Ishii dropkick while Nakamura was doing his coked up pose. Once again, an armbar should have finished it right there and then, but NJPW wont end matches with submissions. The exchanges that followed were good, but give me that submission once in a while.

[Childs]

Re: Dave stuff, is the issue here that Dave doesn't look at matches as an art form (or whatever term you want to use), but as a spectacle to be enjoyed in the moment? I think there's a philosophical difference at work. Here the tendency is to look at a match like a film, a painting or a piece of music - an aesthetic object for which historical context can be interesting and informative, but isn't necessary for appreciation. I think most hardcore wrestling fans look at matches like that at least to some extent. Dave is on the extreme other end of the scale though - for Dave this is self-evidently the best tournament ever because it's the one he's enjoyed the most in the moment, which is what wrestling is all about to him. To look back and rewatch stuff for context would be to miss the point because that's not what wrestling is about. In criticising his hyperbolic gut reactions are we missing the point that he just looks at wrestling very differently from most here?

 

If this is the case though, I guess it's questionable what value there is in proclaiming something the "greatest ever" when it essentially boils down to "the one I enjoyed the most on first viewing". I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Dave looks at wrestling, but too many people assume his opinions on matches are based on serious consideration and analysis, when serious consideration and analysis would really be anathema to the way he appreciates them.

 

The problem is there's not even a sense that he thinks carefully about his own in-the-moment reactions to past stuff. So even granting the difference in approach, the pronouncements come off as half-assed.

[dawho5]

After watching a few DBS Jr. matches, he seems to need a Honma or Tanahashi around to put on his better matches. He's a passable power wrestler, but unless he's got somebody playing a good victim he's average at best.

 

Shibata's tendency to sprint from corner to corner until he hits his corner dropkick is really annoying. The counters all seem the same from whoever he wrestles and it's at least one, sometimes two teases with no real change to the setup.

 

Not a fan of Nakamura's mannerisms, and he seems to have lost some of the offense I liked with the gimmick change from the mid to late 2000s.

[ohtani's jacket]

Styles/Naito was good stuff. Styles is having a hell of a tournament, and the question has to be asked has there ever been a better guy at incorporating springboard moves into a match? I loved how he bust Naito open on a hellacious looking drop kick. Naito's not really the guy to sell a cut like that, as he just looked like a bug-eyed insect with a head wound, but it was a neat time killer. Naturally it gave way to the finishing stretch, but NJPW finishing stretches are pretty damn great and this was chock-a-block full of great moves. I dug the Styles Clash attempt from the second rope and the Naito counter. He went a bit too big on his offence during the stretch run, but it as forgivable. Perhaps he felt he had ground to make up with the cut. He's a really flawed and imperfect worker and it shines through in every match of his, but he does have some great looking spots. Styles looked significantly better, tho.

[stomperspc]

Okada/Nakamura was very good I thought. They went about 20 minutes and did an extended, big WWE main event-like finish with finisher teases, blocks, counters, and near falls. There were a few really cool spots during this section. The crowd was way into the latter portion of the match. The selling by both guys was strong at the end and I didn't think they did too much (in terms of moves and kick outs) to get the reaction they got.

 

The rest of the show was okay. For a Dome show, the crowd reactions were decent. Honma/Naito was fine if not a bit flat. Goto/Shibata worked well for storyline purposes. I figured going in this match would either break up their team or strengthen it. Looks like the latter. Won't be surprised if they win the tag titles soon. Junior tag title match was about what I expected. KUSHIDA was great as usual. Cole worked well with Liger again and Bennett held is own in the other match with ROH guys.

 

Ishii vs. Anderson was hard to watch as Ishii clearly was in no condition to wrestle. It didn't help matters that Anderson busted him upon almost immediately with an elbow. The visual of a one-armed Ishii bleeding from the mouth while trying to fight back was something, but the match itself struggled along because he was in too much pain to put on his normal type of match.

 

Tanahashi/Styles was fine but not up to the level they likely have in them. The entire match came off a bit tentative and even a tad awkward at times. The finish and post-match certainly point to a re-match at some point. Jarrett joining the Bullet Club was so obvious that I didn't think they were actually going to do it. The image of pudgy Scott D'Amore wearing a too-tight Bullet Club t-shirt was hilarious. Always leave it to Jeff to attach himself to the latest hot property.

[pol]

Bobby Fish & Kyle O'Reilly vs. Alex Shelley & KUSHIDA
They worked a tidy 'do a bunch of cool spots' match while not degenerating into the excess that a match like this on the US indies probably would. There were a couple moments towards the start where they were clearly more focused on getting all the steps in their sequence right then making sure to deliver each step with believable conviction, but it wasn't a huge deal. I don't think any of these guys have charisma anywhere close to say a Ricochet or Kota Ibushi, nor do they do anything as spectacular, but there was still some cool stuff to be seen. I liked how frantic it felt towards the end with the rapidfire succession of spots and bodies flying everywhere. Ultimately to me the quality of this kind of match comes down to 'how well did they sell' and 'how cool were the spots', to which 'ok' and 'pretty cool' respectively. Side note, towards the beginning the commentator said "UWF style" and I have no clue which one of these guys he was talking about but it's ridiculous regardless.

 

Hirooki Goto vs. Katsuyori Shibata
Same match they've had a several times before, the psychology-less no-selling stiff-fest, except worse. That kind of match needs pace and intensity to work and this had neither (granted my standards for 'intensity' when it comes to Shibata are probably way higher than for just about any other wrestler). The blatant repetition of their trading backdrop no-sells from that other match was kinda cheesy I thought. Mechanically fine but just about as soulless as it gets.

Tomohiro Ishii vs. Karl Anderson
Fun match, Ishii's selling was off the charts even for him and the blood really helped. I think that top rope Brainbuster attempt was a botched spot but Ishii covered for it wonderfully by immediately going to his shoulder and made it actually make sense in the context of the match. I hate the 'pull the referee out of the ring' spot as far as fuck finishes go, plus even though Ishii hit his finisher, pacing-wise it didn't feel like the end of the match so it didn't really feel like Ishii was screwed out of the win.

AJ Styles vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi
I really wanted to like this more than I did but it felt like it never really hit the heights it should have. It's hard to blame the guys given they've just wrestled a shitload of matches in a two week period. Despite the slow pace the work from both guys was great though.

Kazuchika Okada vs. Shinsuke Nakamura
How much do you value a hot finishing sequence? Everything after the Rainmaker counter into the armbar was just incredible. Everything before that was two guys taking turns to run through their staple offense with no drama or really any sense that an actual contest was taking place. That finishing sequence, though...

[Steenalized]

How'd the attendance look?