Gorilla Monsoon

[C.S.]

This post is somewhat inspired by the recent Cageside Seats Evaluation piece.

 

For years Dave Meltzer has called Gorilla Monsoon one of the worst commentators in the business. I believe he was even voted as such by the WON readers on a few occasions. But I think we all realize Meltzer sets the tone for those votes and significantly influences them - whether he realizes it or not, means to or not.

 

Needless to say, a lot of people disagree with Meltzer. In fact, it seems to me that most wrestling fans online (and off) have nothing but fond memories of Gorilla Monsoon. Meltz seems to think his word is irrefutable gospel when it comes to this stuff - he even criticized Bret Hart for considering Ed Whalen the best of all time "because that's what he grew up with" - so I guess no one is allowed to have a different opinion in Meltzer's mind.

 

Some of Gorilla's positive attributes:

 

• Amazing chemistry and witty banter with Jesse "The Body" Ventura and especially Bobby "The Brain" Heenan.
  
• His vocabulary. Just awesome. He made wrestling feel smart (even if some of the words or phrases he used were probably pulled out of his ass).
  
• Gave wrestling more of a sports-like feel ("He didn't hook the leg!"), which made everything seem more important. I think Meltz once said that some wrestlers complained about stuff like "didn't hook the leg" and felt they were being undermined by Monsoon's commentary. Well, fuck them.
  
• Jim Ross loves him and called him his early WWE mentor. With J.R. being one of the best of all time, that's pretty high praise. Plus, J.R. is "A Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being" (lol), so getting a compliment from him means a lot.
  , of course.
  

In Meltzer's defense, when I first heard Jim Ross in WCW, it blew me away. The presentation was completely different - more serious and even more sports-like than Gorilla - but I chalk that up to stylistic differences between the two feds at the time. The WWF was more about the pomp, circumstance, and pageantry - and that was reflected in the commentary of Gorilla, Vince McMahon, and others. The NWA/WCW was a completely different beast - and that too was reflected by J.R., Tony Schiavone, etc. Case-in-point: J.R. in the WWF was completely different from Jim Ross in WCW/NWA.

 

When it comes right down to it, Gorilla did a perfect job for the type of product he was covering. Meltzer's issues with him was really a reflection of his larger issue with the WWF at the time (IMO). Too many others - myself included - loved Gorilla and have fond memories of him. Could part of that be childhood nostalgia, as Meltz accused Bret of feeling for Ed Whalen? Sure. But that's too easy, cheap, and lazy to be a credible dismissal in my mind. Bret understands wrestling more than most. As for Gorilla, even if 100% of his fans only love him for nostalgic reasons ("highly unlikely"), that still means his approach worked for audiences at the time. He did his job and did it well. Compared to the annoying, screechy, shrill style of commentary in today's WWE, I think we'd all give anything to go back to the days of Gorilla Monsoon.

 

Note: I've only touched on Gorilla Monsoon the commentator. He had an extensive in-ring career before this, but I haven't seen any of his matches. If you want to add that aspect of his career to the discussion too, please do.

[PeteF3]

Monsoon in the '90s became a total shit show, especially after the Brain left but it was becoming a problem before. Whatever insights he offered in the '80s were totally gone--all he did was shit on the heels, banter with Heenan, and recite from his now-standard Book of Cliches ("Holy mackerel, it's pandemonium, you can cut the electricity with a knife," etc. etc. etc.)

 

And no, Monsoon doesn't get a pass for not putting over the heels just because he was a babyface and the WWF was a comic book cartoon company. Monsoon's big retort to Owen Hart upon winning KOTR was "YOU GOT LUCKY!" when he beat Bret at WM10, a monumentally dumb thing to say for your #1 heel. Monsoon's stint on Raw as sub for Vince was such a rousing success that McMahon had to bring back Jim Ross to cover for the both of them. When Vince came back after his neck surgery, the narrative had gone from Owen being "lucky" to a guy who beat Bret Hart on Bret's very best day. Which one sells you more on a pay-per-view rematch?

 

The issues with Gorilla go back further than that, but he was definitely more tolerable in the '80s. Still, at some point it would have been nice for him to do something besides sniff about how he's never seen anyone lose to a side headlock or armbar, and instead explain why one would utilize such a hold regardless (wear the opponent down, set him up for something else, etc.) That was rarely a tactic he took, because the focus in his mind was on how smart he was and not on the wrestlers.

[Matt D]

There's no one in the world I'd rather have announce a boring crappy match. I'm less high on him announcing a great match though.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've massively gone to bat for Monsoon in the past on this board and think too many posters here are way way too down on him. I don't want to rehash arguments I've made before, but I can't for the life of me find them ...

 

While I'm looking though, re: him as a worker, from the stuff we've seen in the 1970s thus far, I'd say he's "a lot better than expected".

[JerryvonKramer]

Seems like the biggest Monsoon debate was here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/14127-tony-schiavone-and-early-90s-wcw-announcing/?p=5476079

 

 

 

Different strokes for different folks on Monsoon. He was a marketed character like everything else in the WWF, and the presentation wouldn't have worked as well with a straight commentator like a Solie or Russell. Monsoon as the host and voice and character and comedy straight man was more important than the technical details of his commentary. I always thought the stuff some people complain about with him were part of his charm. He was like the grandfather who's gotten a little goofy. Plus he did a lot to get the characters and stories over, whether selling someone like Mike Rotundo or Bret Hart as a great technician, or Dino Bravo as a dangerous strongman, he was really good at that stuff. Pointing out little things in matches that the average person wouldn't even notice is just nitpicking.

I'm 100% with you there.

One thing I never got about Meltzer and co ragging on the WWF product of that period for how much they apparently did wrong, is the fact that they seem totally oblivious to the fact that ...

This group of people created the most over product of all time.

If Gorilla buried people so much just to get himself over, why was practically the entire roster from Hogan to Brian B. Blair and and Dangerous Danny Davis over like rover?

Someone somewhere was doing something right, right?

Are the Gorilla detractors going to argue that everything was crazy over DESPITE Monsoon?

I'm not saying you should like him if you don't, but I think saying he's downright awful or the "worst" appears to fly in the face of the evidence.

I can't think of another promotion or period in which the entire card was over in that way and Gorilla was the main play-by-play guy at that time. So he has to take some credit for that.

 

I still think that now. If Gorilla was so bad, why is it only the hardcores who really hate him? Take that, hardcores.

[NintendoLogic]

I suppose I'd agree that Gorilla sucked relative to some Platonic ideal of what an announcer should sound like. But when you compare him to other actually existing announcers, he looks a lot better. If presented with the choice between Gorilla and Vince, who was basically his polar opposite, I'll take Gorilla any day of the week

[Loss]

I have nothing new to say.

[KrisZ]

Did I consider Monsoon good....not really but I always thought he was entertaining especially with the right guys with him.

[DR Ackermann]

Sometimes it's difficult to realize that everything isn't black and white when making critiques. Rating Monsoon as a 'good' or 'bad' announcer would be difficult because he's good at a lot of things and bad at others. Instead of averaging out the pros and cons and assigning him some rating like 'great' or 'awful' its best to just talk about what he was great at and what he sucked at doing.

[DR Ackermann]

With that said, there were times I thought he was awesome and was willing to defend him and other times when I couldn't stand him.

[sek69]

I think the problem with Gorilla is that he didn't have anyone to work with towards the end that worked with him as well as Jesse and Heenan did, plus you have to think his health issues played a part as well.

 

Another issue was probably how the presentation changed. There was no one better in the 80s calling shows that were 90% squashes or jobber vs jobber matches and make them entertaining like he was. By the 90s, it was a different style and he didn't always fit.

[KrisZ]

I loved his pairing with Johnny Polo

[The Chief]

You can criticize Gorilla all you want, but I think his biggest strength is that he's a genuinely likeable human being. That goes a long way when you're the voice of a promotion. The fans trust Gorilla.

[Blazer]

Monsoon in the '90s became a total shit show, especially after the Brain left but it was becoming a problem before. Whatever insights he offered in the '80s were totally gone--all he did was shit on the heels, banter with Heenan, and recite from his now-standard Book of Cliches ("Holy mackerel, it's pandemonium, you can cut the electricity with a knife," etc. etc. etc.)

 

And no, Monsoon doesn't get a pass for not putting over the heels just because he was a babyface and the WWF was a comic book cartoon company. Monsoon's big retort to Owen Hart upon winning KOTR was "YOU GOT LUCKY!" when he beat Bret at WM10, a monumentally dumb thing to say for your #1 heel. Monsoon's stint on Raw as sub for Vince was such a rousing success that McMahon had to bring back Jim Ross to cover for the both of them. When Vince came back after his neck surgery, the narrative had gone from Owen being "lucky" to a guy who beat Bret Hart on Bret's very best day. Which one sells you more on a pay-per-view rematch?

 

The issues with Gorilla go back further than that, but he was definitely more tolerable in the '80s. Still, at some point it would have been nice for him to do something besides sniff about how he's never seen anyone lose to a side headlock or armbar, and instead explain why one would utilize such a hold regardless (wear the opponent down, set him up for something else, etc.) That was rarely a tactic he took, because the focus in his mind was on how smart he was and not on the wrestlers.

 

This is comical. I get a kick out of you guys.

 

This is the same mindset that says Steamboat/Savage at WM3 sucked because Steamboat wasn't "mad" enough. Everything in context. If you lived it, you knew how fucking great Gorilla was. As good as he was with Heenan, his chemistry with Jesse on the early PPVs and the All-Star/Maple Leaf show was even better.

[PeteF3]

If Monsoon had never broadcast with anyone besides Jesse and Bobby (or the occasional Johnny Polo), that would be meaningful. But he did. Lots of times, especially once Jesse and Heenan were both gone. Usually to the show's detriment.

[JerryvonKramer]

I suppose I'd agree that Gorilla sucked relative to some Platonic ideal of what an announcer should sound like. But when you compare him to other actually existing announcers, he looks a lot better. If presented with the choice between Gorilla and Vince, who was basically his polar opposite, I'll take Gorilla any day of the week

 

I am trying to defend Monsoon, but there's no way I'd take him over Vince, who was excellent for about 20 years (70s to early 90s).

 

There is also an argument to say that Monsoon was actually the B-team commentator because Vince did Superstars and SNME. Monsoon fronted Prime Time but his actual announcing duties were usually restricted to Challenge or more obscure house shows with the likes of Lord Alfred.

 

If you watch old Prime Time shows, you get a potpourri of commentators on there cos it was essentially a clip show, showing matches from all over.

 

I've had a thought that Vince didn't fully "trust" Monsoon on commentary as early as 1988. I am not sure why he didn't put himself on the PPVs, but I can only guess it was because he was too busy behind the scenes at the first WMs and Summerslams -- or had too much on his mind -- to commentate on top of it all. He never gave Monsoon the Superstars or SNME gigs. And as soon as he could replace him on the PPVs (see Schiavone in 1989), he did. Then by 1990, Vince himself takes over on some of them.

 

The only reason I mention this is because I'm not sure if this ...

 

 

 

when you're the voice of a promotion

 

... is quite true. Vince was the voice of the promotion, and the main host. The PPVs, I think, skew the perception on this a lot.

[Blazer]

If Monsoon had never broadcast with anyone besides Jesse and Bobby (or the occasional Johnny Polo), that would be meaningful. But he did. Lots of times, especially once Jesse and Heenan were both gone. Usually to the show's detriment.

 

What are you referencing exactly? Give me something tangible. I remember some godawful 1993 Wrestling Challenge shows with Stan Lane and Gorilla. However, nobody on the planet could have made those shows even remotely entertaining when the main matches included Doink, Well Dunn, and Damien Demento. That was a brutal era. BRUTAL. Judge Gorilla on his work from the early 80s to early 90s, not the 92-94 stuff, especially after he lost Joey in '94.

[PeteF3]

The '92-'94 stuff is what's freshest in my mind, because that's the stuff I'm watching. ::shrug:: Of what I can remember...

 

I already talked about Owen Hart in 1994 earlier. It doesn't sound like much but it was such a stupid and obviously counterproductive thing to say.

 

Loss did a fantastic recap of Monsoon's performance in the Harts/Steiners match that you can find in the January '94 Yearbook thread. It wasn't good, and you can't use the excuse that he wasn't calling enough of a big-time match.

 

He tended to shit on the heels to Ed Whalen-esque proportions, particularly Ric Flair. About the only time he ever actually put Flair over was during the '92 Rumble, because Flair's performance dragged him into doing so kicking and screaming. Otherwise, he would only talk about how inevitable it was that Flair was going to lose the title or how his figure four wasn't going to work on Piper or Hogan the way it worked on some TV jobber.

 

Yes, it was Monsoon's job to be a babyface. Yes, it was his job to antagonize Heenan. But he just said tons of shit that I can't imagine McMahon saying. And even if it was past his prime (and the WWF's prime for that matter) it still happened and it still counts.

[ohtani's jacket]

I seem to remember Heenan and Monsoon on commentary being a highlight of Royal Rumble '92 and Wrestlemania VIII.

[thebrainfollower]

I'd say these are valid criticisms of a good announcer. Gorilla after Heenan left is clearly a huge detriment to the product, and even his beloved Polo combo is all about Polo doing this MST3K style of commentary and just completely exasperating Gorilla (I suspect for real)

 

Gorilla clearly didn't like Flair and wasn't going out of his way to make Flair look good. I remember even as a kid though, not being impressed with Flair in the slightest until RR92 (I had never seen NWA stuff then). I'd argue Flair did himself no favors either, yes his match with Tito in 91 is great but why is Tito destroying him for most of the match? It was not how any WWF heel was presented and it made him a joke. That's Flair's fault and yeah Gorilla could have covered for him but he chose not to.

 

Prior to that though, can you think of any match Gorilla hurt with his commentary? I'd argue even his teamups with Mean Gene and Lord Alfred and Hillbilly enhanced boring house show matches rather than ruined them. I'd like to see some where the reverse is true in that era to see if I am wrong.

[Loss]

I notice a lot of people are giving him credit for making shows entertaining. Is that the announcer's job? I always saw the announcer as the salesman, but not really a circus attraction in his own right. The entertainment should be happening in the ring, not behind the booth. The announcer is there to faciliate the entertainment of what we are watching, but I don't really agree with the idea of an announcer entertaining people. Announcing is a means to an end, but not really an end. That philosophy leads to an announcer, whose job is to get everything else over, not themselves, getting over themselves and what good does that do?

[PeteF3]

As far as "classic Gorilla" ruining a match--the pre-eminent example is the Savage/Tito no-DQ match from MSG. Even though Finkle announces plain as day that "there will be NO DISQUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER," Gorilla spends the entire match harping about the officiating. By the time Savage decks the referee and uses a chair, he's frothing at the mouth demanding that Savage be disqualified. It's enough that I can't even watch the match, and it's a shame because the work is fantastic.

 

I will say that an announcer, like a manager, does have to get himself over to some extent--a good announcer has to have credibility and I certainly won't say that Gorilla was lacking in that department. And to attain credibility you do have to put yourself over to a degree. Look at Michael Cole to see what happens if your lead announcer doesn't have any.

[ohtani's jacket]

90% of it is your voice. Gorilla had a good voice. Michael Cole doesn't.

[Matt D]

If the match is Rene Goulet vs SD Jones, for 13 minutes, then it is his job. Less so for Santana vs Savage.

[Gregor]

As far as "classic Gorilla" ruining a match--the pre-eminent example is the Savage/Tito no-DQ match from MSG. Even though Finkle announces plain as day that "there will be NO DISQUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER," Gorilla spends the entire match harping about the officiating. By the time Savage decks the referee and uses a chair, he's frothing at the mouth demanding that Savage be disqualified. It's enough that I can't even watch the match, and it's a shame because the work is fantastic.

I don't hate Monsoon, but that match and Harts-Steiners are two in which I distinctly recall him annoying me. I remember Savage goes for a pin on Santana, hooks the leg, and then when Santana kicks out Gorilla says that Savage shouldn't have been so focused on hooking that leg. He spends his whole announcing career telling guys to hook the leg, and then, when someone finally does, well, he might have gotten the pinfall if only he hadn't done that.