The nWo - Did the positives outweigh the negatives?

[JaymeFuture]

So, I'm doing a podcast this week on the history of the New World Order angle, and the question I'd like to pose to you all is - do you feel the positives of the nWo outweighed the negatives that ultimately came from it?

 

I'll be reading the best feedback on the show as always, and any personal stories of your perspectives of the nWo while it was going on would be great as well. The deeper you get into your positives and negatives, the better.

 

I'm interested to see what response this gets here...

[Lust Hogan]

The positives did not outweigh the negatives, in my opinion. The NWO certainly helped freshen WCW up and pushed them to number 1 but there was never a payoff for the angle because the NWO was never vulnerable. Guys refusing to put over other talent in a logical manner (Starcade 97 Hogan/Sting among others) didn't help either. It just seemed the NWO would never die and when it became stale the group looked like a bunch of old guys trying to hang on to a gimmick that made them "cool" when in fact it did the opposite.

[Shining Wiz]

It was the impetus for the WWF updating its show and led to their hottest streak ever. That positive outweighs the negatives, IMO.

[DMJ]

The birth of the nWo revitalized wrestling in America. It led to a career rebirth for Hulk Hogan and remarkable matches and storylines for everyone from Randy Savage and Sean Waltman to nWo rivals like Lex Luger and Diamond Dallas Page. For more than a full year, we saw the WWE forced to push their own creative juices to keep up with WCW, a true competition between two promotions the likes of which we'd never seen before as fans. While, in the end, no one could applaud the booking of the show, if you were a wrestling fan, the build up for Starrcade 97' was thrilling in a way that hadn't been experienced in years.

 

Meanwhile, in the aforementioned WWE, without the nWo, Vince McMahon has no impetus to update his own show with more adult-oriented storylines and characters. Without that, we get Rocky Maivia "The Blue Chipper" and not The Rock. We get Shawn Michaels the Boy Toy and Hunter Hearst Helmsley the Blue Blood and not DegenerationX. Without the middle fingers, beers, and DTA attitude, what does "Stone Cold" Steve Austin look like?

 

The nWo brought "must see" back to wrestling programming, led to competition that raised the stakes for both companies, and, by bringing a spotlight to WCW, even helped make guys like Eddie Guerrero, Steve Regal, Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Psicosis, Raven, and Chris Benoit household names.

 

Sure, it also indirectly led to the downfall of the same company it brought to #1, but had it never existed, whose to say the company would've lasted much longer anyway.

[WingedEagle]

The positive is that it made WCW into the number one company in the country. The negative is that it arguably killed the company. High volatility there.

[stomperspc]

The NWO was a victim of its own successes.

 

The original NWO concept/angle was a huge success both creatively and financially. The first six months where they continually build heat on the NWO are really well done and one of the better executed/successful long-term angles a national promotion has ever carried out. Even 1997 had plenty of positives and while the NWO had already outlived its usefulness by the end of the year, Starrcade’s buy rate would suggest that there was nothing wrong with drawing it out until then.

 

The problem was that those in charge viewed the NWO has the sole reason for their successes and brashly felt like they could keep it going forever. Every angle has its expiration date. The NWO angle in particular was always going to be difficult to maintain even if they had booked it differently from 1997 – 1999. The NWO worked so well initially because the group was booked ultra-strong and Sullivan (as booker) built a lot of heat on them. You can only put heat on the heels for so long before you start seeing diminishing returns and/or negative returns. The fans want a conclusion at some point and want the faces to get their revenge. Every one saw that the NWO got over by being put over so strongly initially and foolishly decided they could maintain that momentum by continuing to have them one-up WCW. Wrestling doesn’t work that way. At some point, there needs to be a payoff to the build.

 

I think there is an argument that the NWO going on forever – to the point it ceased being an angle and became woven into the fabric of WCW – contributed to WCW’s demise. However, the original angle and concept was filled with a ton of good ideas and valuable booking lessons on to establish a wrestler/group as threats. It is sort of a mixed bag.

 

Long-term, I am not sure the way the NWO was booked has really had a lasting effect on pro wrestling. There was a time where there were too many cool heels (which definitely is a result of the NWO), but I think we are far past that point now. Putting heat on the heels by having them constantly (not just sometimes which is okay) break up main event matches never became all that widespread outside of the NWO period in WCW and Russo. It gave us years of invasion angles that still happen in different places which I’d buy as a negative product of the NWO’s success. Although Bischoff would argue differently, I don’t think his tenure as a heel authority figure led to Mr. McMahon or anything so I don’t think the continued presence of a heel owner/commissioner can be blamed on the NWO. Again, it is kind of a mixed bag.

 

The one area where WWE could learn from WCW’s mistakes with the NWO is that no matter how successful something is, it has an end date. It is always better go cut it off early then cut it off too late and be left with no backup plans. I say that in reference to John Cena currently. Vince had that quote about how “Cena puts food on all our tables” and will be a main eventer forever because of that. Eventually Cena is going to stop producing at that rate, however, and they need to be able to move on from that.

[slackermillionaire]

Without the nWo would the WWE achieve the same amount of success in the attitude era? I say no.

[Bigelow34]

I think there is an argument that the NWO going on forever – to the point it ceased being an angle and became woven into the fabric of WCW

 

To me that is the key statement. They stopped being an invading force hellbent on wrecking WCW and just became a heel stable that is part of WCW.

[fakeplastictrees]

When I think of WCW's use of The NWO, I can't help but to think of Chubby Checker's song "The Twist". Checker's 1960 cover of Hank Ballard's R&B hit "The Twist" reached number one in 1960. It started a dance craze that swept the nation and made Checker a lot of money. Did Checker leave his 'Thriller' alone and continued forward with trying to create another "Thriller" while not RE-CREATING THRILLER? No. Not really.

 

As the years rolled on the following were released:

 

"Twistin' U.S.A."

"Let's Twist Again"

"Slow Twisting'"

"Twistin Round the World"

"Twist It Up"

"Yo Twist"

 

Checker kept going back to "The Twist" bag and made money, but began to typecast himself as a musician. WCW, after the NWO, became so obsessed with company takeover angles. It got to the point that NWO like angles were ran with or without The NWO. The New Bloods is a prime example of this.WCW 1997-2001 focused mainly around who was in control of the company, who was trying to take over the company, and different NWO incarnations, and at one time an actual NWO reboot.

 

How has the NWO negatively impacted pro wrestling today? Simple. Everyone except for WWE (as Vince found that out in 2002) keeps trying to re-create The NWO. The worse offender of this is, of course, TNA.TNA trying to re-create NWO like angles (and at times using actual members from The NWO) is one of the reasons TNA has been stuck in second gear for years. The main focus of WCW from 1997-2001 has been the "A" angle for the majority of TNA's 12 year existence. The NWO created such an impression within the 20th century that a 21st century wrestling company decided to crib the NWO angle at every chance it got to the harm of its own business and American pro wrestling in general.

[Smack2k]

NWO = Attitude Era...

 

Without the first, we dont have the second..

 

The NWO was AMAZING from July - Dec '96 in terms of what was happening...but after that things started to slide, although it took almost two years for it to finally begin to fall fast in '99..

 

They never blew off the NWO or ended the angle, and they had chances to...or even times when WCW would win something and force the NWO to take a back seat and regroup for a while in '97. Starrcade '97 should have been Sting winning decisively...it causes the NWO to splinter after Hogan loses again at Superbrawl after botched interference from Savage. You then have Sting as champ and he can take on all challengers, in and out of the NWO, you also have two NWO's to feud for months and lead to War Games '98 Blow off but the NWO is either on the same level or a step below Sting and the World TItle....

 

So the NWO was GREAT and without it, who knows what we'd think of 1997 - 2001 in Wrestling and who knows if the WWF would have continued its 95 early 96 ways....

 

The NWO was THE Catalyst for all the greatness in wrestling that followed and ALL the nostalgia people call back to today. It, directly and indirectly led to HUGE ratings and wrestling becoming main stream. It caused wrestling to become "cool" to young adults (I was at Penn State from '96 - 2000 and saw it first hand).

 

So, the positives WAY outweigh the negatives as the NWO is one of the top 5 most important US Wrestling things to EVER happen....

 

Side note, I am HUGE NWO mark, but if Bret and Jarrett dont get hurt, NWO 2000 could have been GREAT...just sayin...

[Petey]

I've seen a lot of references to every angle having an expiration date and how the nWo greatly outlived its expiration date. When do you guys feel the angle should have ended?

 

I was just about to turn 9 when the '96 Bash occurred, so I was a mark during pretty much the nWo's entire WCW run. I've also re-watched a lot of the Nitro's from the era via Classics on Demand, so I've seen the thing through different lenses.

 

As early as the fall of '96, you can see the nWo transitioning from "group of outside invaders" to "dominant heel stable". It was still successful, Starrcade '97 proved that, but the transition happened fairly early into the run.

 

I grew up in NY, so I was a huge WWF fan. I was also a huge Hogan fan and I followed him when he went to WCW, but it wasn't until Nitro launched that I really started to prefer WCW to the WWF. I was always watching WCW during the nWo's heyday and really only keeping up on the WWF through Livewire and some school friends who were pro-WWF. It wasn't until TYSON AND AUSTIN that I started to shift back to the WWF and was all in once Austin won the title at WrestleMania 14.

 

I say all that because I think it matters in shaping my views on the wrestling I like(d?). The nWo was awesome. It was like a revolution. It felt so different than anything I had ever seen in wrestling. Even when it became more of a traditional storyline with a dominating heel stable, I was glued because it still seemed awesome. It took something that I thought felt more revolutionary and more different to get me to switch back.

 

What re-watching the '97 Nitros taught me was that the fall of '97 was a pretty bad period for WCW, even if it was commercially successful, while it was really great for the WWF, even if their business was yet to boom. It really felt as though they were treading water from Road Wild '97 until Starrcade and it was at this point that the nWo's constant winning started to be way too much. It almost felt like there was no point in watching until Sting/Hogan. The Nitro after Fall Brawl '97 was one of the most depressing episodes of wrestling TV I've ever watched. Hennig beating Mongo in the main event for the US Title was the poor icing on the cake. It was horrendous. For anyone with a more critical eye than mine at the time, they would have already been switching to the WWF. And it would all get so much worse.

 

With all that said, to answer the original question, I think the positives outweighed the negatives. Wrestling needed to change. It needed a kick in the butt. The nWo ushered in the change it needed. Sure, it may have killed the company, but WCW might have died anyway or at least shrank to a really small level, possibly taking the WWF along for the ride.

[thebrainfollower]

IF Hogan had just done what was right and been beaten from pillar to post and pinned by Sting we wouldn't even be having this conversation sadly.

 

I think an NWO sans Hogan could have lasted throughout 98 but no longer than that.

 

Positive outweigh the negatives but most of the positives were unintended side effects.

[Dylan Waco]

The only way the negatives outweigh the positives is if you believe that the NWO angle is a large part of what killed WCW. I don't believe that. I believe the death of WCW was inevitable because it was a horribly mismanaged company from the jump. If the NWO never happens, but the company is still held hostage by bad contracts, tv is run so chaotically, so many people are in charge that no one knows who is in charge, et. WCW still goes out of business. In fact without the NWO - and especially without Hogan - it is very easy to envision a scenario where WCW goes of business years before it did. From an artistic standpoint you can argue that the NWO had more negatives than positives and I could probably be convinced of it. But looking purely at business I think it is a very hard argument to make.

[Loss]

While Sting was set up well to be the guy, his work in 1998 left a lot to be desired, which is something all of us have noticed who are watching 1998 footage in the folders right now. It's not a case like Hogan where he's not a Ric Flair-type worker, it's that he didn't bring very much new to his act other than his look. Sting wouldn't have worked long term even if Hogan did put him over clean.

 

That's not to say Sting shouldn't have won clean. But I think the short-term money was in NWO vs NWO, more specifically Hogan/Savage vs Hall/Nash, with neither side really turning babyface. That's not quite what they did - instead, they retreaded Hogan vs Savage and then tacked Nash on as an afterthought and turned him babyface to lead his own group when they never had plans of doing a Hogan vs Nash match.

 

Sting could have held the title for a few months and feuded with WCW guys since the NWO feud wouldn't need the belt. That's not perfect either though, because I don't think Goldberg beating Bret or Sting would have had the same impact that beating Hogan did. But in spite of Sting being disappointing upon his return, I don't think Hogan ever beating him was the answer either.

 

This is what happens when there's no long-term direction at all.

[Loss]

Actually, with the benefit of hindsight, I think NWO vs NWO should have happened completely in its own universe. There's no need to do WCW guys vs NWO guys anymore - Starrcade would have symbolized that WCW has now won and that's it. So I probably would have had Sting drop the belt pretty quickly to Bret while Hogan/Savage come out on top of the NWO vs NWO feud when the smoke clears. Then Bret vs Hogan can be built up with Bret defending. Whoever is hotter wins and it doesn't really matter who wins that match. The winner drops the belt to Goldberg and the loser is his first major challenger to put him over.

[Petey]

I always thought there was money in a Hogan/Nash match. Every time they teased "dissension" in the nWo, whenever it was centered on Nash being the cause, the crowd would go crazy. The match itself would have been terrible but I think the build would have been great and it could have done a great buyrate, especially if it were a co-main event with Sting or whoever defending the title in another match.

[goodhelmet]

The NWO as Chubby Checker is awesome!!!!

[Smack2k]

Loss,

 

I really like your idea's there....gets Hogan back into the title scene for his big match vs. Goldberg, gets Bret already involved in the title scene right away, And you can still do the NWO vs. NWO feud that should have happened and been done right, with the final blowoff at War Games '98 where the loser group disbands completely. The Winners could go on as the only NWO left, but now just as a stable (ala Stud Stable type in 94 WCW / Nation - DX in WWF 98) with their guys in feuds and helping but not being the dominating force.

 

Damn, that coulda been good.

[Jesse Ewiak]

Basically, what Dylan said. A promotion with Nash, Hogan, and other types such as themselves was always going to self destruct. At least we got one good angle out of it before the implosion.

[JaymeFuture]

I want to thank everybody for the awesome feedback on this subject, we read a hell of a lot of it on the podcast, and had what I thought was a really fun discussion reliving the nWo, and talking about whether the positives outweighed the negatives of the biggest angle in WCW history. You can check out the show here:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/yza72e/SCGRadio12-AnalysingthenWo.mp3

Hopefully you enjoy, feedback is appreciated!

[thebrainfollower]

Here's the thing about Sting, while I don't think he's a great worker, but he's sure as heck an enthusiastic one. Or at least pre-Crow Sting always was. But the moment he steps through the curtain at Starrcade 97 he's like a dead man walking and he doesn't get into being even a decent worker for a few months.

 

So my question is this, how much of this was

 

Ring rust

 

Trying to play the crow character and not really figuring out you can't be boring

 

Realizing his run as the tippy top guy had been brought to an end by Hogan's politics? I never hear Sting talk about this so I've got to assume he's ignorant, has anyone ever asked him his opinion of the Nick Patrick fast count?

[JaymeFuture]

I'm kind of surprised Sting let that fast count go down the way it did. At least he should have gotten his shoulder up to protect his own ass and make it an obvious fuck job.

[Loss]

Sting was asked about the Nick Patrick thing years ago and all he would say is that he had his suspicions on how things went down but didn't know for sure. He's so trusting!