2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[WingedEagle]

 

I liken him to Tony Perez. He wasn't Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, or Pete Rose. Playing with those guys probably got Perez into the HOF. Maybe playing in AJPW (& NOAH) gets Taue in. And maybe there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Does that make Akiyama Dave Concepcion?

 

Or it could be case of Mays, Mantle, Snider and Ashburn. It may depend on how much one views them in relative terms to each other or in relative terms to everyone else.

 

 

How about as the Isaiah to Magic or Bird, or Barkley to Jordan? He's not The Guy. But that guy isn't The Guy without him.

[Robert S]

I was delighted to take a look at Akira Taue's credentials over at Voices of Wrestling.

 

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/15/akira-taues-hall-of-fame-case/

A good read, though there is one line, I would argue heavily against: "Hashimoto was a better draw than Taue and the ace of New Japan for portions of the 1990’s but where Taue is the 4th guy remembered in the Four Pillars, Hashimoto is the 3rd in the Three Musketeers." Hashimoto was easily the biggest draw of the Musketeers and arguably the best worker.

 

Taue as a worker has to be seen as you indicated by considering the cards he was dealt. Taue was compared to the rest of the All Japan stars lacking in athletic skills. And even though the in-ring style in mid-90ies All Japan was one of the most athletic demanding styles of all time he did not look at all out of place. Even when he was physically broken down in the mid-00s he still was able to have great matches from time to time, just by his understanding of working. If he had come along 10-20 years earlier he might have had an even more prolific career.

[FedEx227]

Hard to use merch sales as an argument for someone when we don't have numbers, only anecdotes.

 

It's definitely tough, all we know is at some point in 2011 he beat Cena in total merch sales. We have concrete numbers on his DVD which show he was one of the highest selling DVD comps ever which is definitely a feather in the cap but yeah, without knowing the other figures exactly.

 

On the other hand, anecdotes have certainly been used to accentuate someone's HOF resume before.

[evilclown]

I find it really interesting that some people see Taue as anything but an anchor. I'm not sure I'd rate him in the top 10 of AJPW guys of that era. I think almost anyone from the promotion could have filled his role as "other guy" in tag matches with great performers.

[Dylan Waco]

Why is that? Taue was always someone I loved from the jump when I started watching AJPW.

[mookeighana]

FWIW - (x-posted from WON):

 

For those interested in some more "wrestlenomics" about the #wonhof 2014 ballot:

 

I put together a look at five different metrics: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2014/09/wrestlenomics-for-won-hall-of-fame.html

 

(Link above is the summary.)

 

Here are the individual datasets:

1. Days as champions for major belts (specifically starting in 1984-2014)

2. Four star+ matches

3. Total PPV Main Events for U.S.

4. Total 10,000+ crowds for Japan (75% complete for wrestler attribution)

5. Wrestler of the Year and Match of the Year tallies

 

This doesn't necessarily take into account drawing ability or even working ability, but I think suggests some interesting comparisons among candidates.

[WingedEagle]

I find it really interesting that some people see Taue as anything but an anchor. I'm not sure I'd rate him in the top 10 of AJPW guys of that era. I think almost anyone from the promotion could have filled his role as "other guy" in tag matches with great performers.

 

Which 10 were better and could've taken his place during that era?

[mookeighana]

 

I find it really interesting that some people see Taue as anything but an anchor. I'm not sure I'd rate him in the top 10 of AJPW guys of that era. I think almost anyone from the promotion could have filled his role as "other guy" in tag matches with great performers.

Which 10 were better and could've taken his place during that era?

 

And for people asking for examples of Taue matches without Kawada, Misawa or Kobashi...

+ 11/25/90 - Tsuruta/Taue vs. Williams/Gordy (AJPW)

+ 10/7/92 - Tsuruta/Taue vs. Willams/Gordy (AJPW)

+ 8/22/92 - Tsuruta/Taue vs. Williams/Gordy (AJPW)

+ 11/27/92 - Taue/Akiyama vs. Williams/Gordy (AJPW)

+ 4/20/96 - Taue vs. Williams (AJPW)

+ 10/21/97 - Taue vs. Ace (AJPW)

+ 6/6/03 - Nagata vs. Taue (NOAH)

[kjh]

The Ultimo Dragon comparison seems a bit unfair as there seems to be obvious matches missing (like those with Chris Jericho and Dean Malenko, two of his career best opponents), unless Loss wasn't a fan of those matches.

[W2BTD]

FWIW - (x-posted from WON):

 

For those interested in some more "wrestlenomics" about the #wonhof 2014 ballot:

 

I put together a look at five different metrics: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2014/09/wrestlenomics-for-won-hall-of-fame.html

 

(Link above is the summary.)

 

Here are the individual datasets:

1. Days as champions for major belts (specifically starting in 1984-2014)

2. Four star+ matches

3. Total PPV Main Events for U.S.

4. Total 10,000+ crowds for Japan (75% complete for wrestler attribution)

5. Wrestler of the Year and Match of the Year tallies

 

This doesn't necessarily take into account drawing ability or even working ability, but I think suggests some interesting comparisons among candidates.

 

The problem with the raw number of 4-star+ matches, is what dave watches. He's seen just about every taped WWF/E match since 1984, and rated every single PPV match, so WWE wrestlers have a built in advantage. Same for WCW & TNA PPV's. And like anybody else, when he's hot on a certain promotion he tends to consume as much as he can get his hands on. He runs hot & cold on New Japan, lucha, etc. Obviously we all know he was way into the AJPW golden era and loved joshi during that time, too. He is watching all of the New Japan big shows right now, which he probably wasn't doing a few years ago (just like he isn't watching a ton of All Japan, NOAH, Zero-1, etc at the moment aside from hyped stuff that people rec to him, which he often doesn't bother to rate or talk about in the newsletter).

 

This is stuff we have to keep in mind when looking at "this guy has 23 matches compared to this other guy with 8". For example, CIMA has 9 matches listed, 3 of which are from DGUSA, and 3 of which are from Dragon Gate proper. I mean, c'mon. That's just dave not watching a ton of Dragon Gate, because CIMA has had literally thousands of Dragon Gate/Toryumon matches, and what, maybe 40 DGUSA bouts? And dave likes the style enough to where CIMA would probably have 40 or 50 matches from Dragon Gate alone listed at minimum if he was consuming the product at WWE levels. Comparing CIMA to Dragon Kid is fair, but comparing CIMA to Edge with something like this is essentially worthless. Edge to Randy Orton? Absolutely.

 

Even someone like Jun Akiyama gets screwed, because dave wasn't watching a ton of declining days NOAH or modern All Japan, and if he is, he isn't writing about it, talking about it, or rating it.

[NintendoLogic]

 

 

I liken him to Tony Perez. He wasn't Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, or Pete Rose. Playing with those guys probably got Perez into the HOF. Maybe playing in AJPW (& NOAH) gets Taue in. And maybe there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Does that make Akiyama Dave Concepcion?

 

Or it could be case of Mays, Mantle, Snider and Ashburn. It may depend on how much one views them in relative terms to each other or in relative terms to everyone else.

 

 

How about as the Isaiah to Magic or Bird, or Barkley to Jordan? He's not The Guy. But that guy isn't The Guy without him.

 

 

I like the analogy I've made in the past. If Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi are Jordan/Magic/Bird, then Taue is Scottie Pippen-a level below the other three, but still an all-time great in his own right.

[Loss]

The Ultimo Dragon comparison seems a bit unfair as there seems to be obvious matches missing (like those with Chris Jericho and Dean Malenko, two of his career best opponents), unless Loss wasn't a fan of those matches.

 

The Dean match at Starrcade should be there, but yeah, didn't like the one with Jericho.

[W2BTD]

Somebody with more time on their hands than me should seek out other match ratings aside from dave's. Keller, Scott Keith, Loss, Alan4L, Ryan Clingman, the devilishly handsome Joe Lanza, whoever. I know mookie was looking for a comprehensive Keller listing, not sure if he ever found it.

 

If seven people rate a PPV or a big show, and five of them go 4 or higher on a given match, you can reasonably surmise that it was a pretty damn great match. A compilation of matches that were rated by more than just one person, with a high/low plus average rating, would be more interesting to analyze than just dave's opinion. There are probably thousands of puro matches alone that plenty of smart people have rated that dave will never watch. Even in North America dave doesn't watch a ton of lucha, and when it comes to places like ROH he only watched what gabe or others sent him in the pre TV/iPPV days. People were/are rating all of this stuff.

[Alan4L]

For me, Taue needed to do more in the 2000s to push him to HOF level. He had some good moments, and even some great ones (the Marufuji match in 06 and the nostalgia title run) but he also had alot of rough patches. Due to his body type being not the most durable, he was unable to have that "veteran who can still go" run that someone like Tenryu had or that Akiyama is having now. Another knock on him was that he wasn't ever used for big matches outside of his home promotion. Compared to Nagata and Akiyama who were brought in by other promotions to have dream matches, carry tournaments and even title runs.... that hurts Taue for me.

[Loss]

We need a Rotten Tomatoes for wrestling matches.

[Alan4L]

Somebody with more time on their hands than me should seek out other match ratings aside from dave's. Keller, Scott Keith, Loss, Alan4L, Ryan Clingman, the devilishly handsome Joe Lanza, whoever. I know mookie was looking for a comprehensive Keller listing, not sure if he ever found it.

 

If seven people rate a PPV or a big show, and five of them go 4 or higher on a given match, you can reasonably surmise that it was a pretty damn great match. A compilation of matches that were rated by more than just one person, with a high/low plus average rating, would be more interesting to analyze than just dave's opinion. There are probably thousands of puro matches alone that plenty of smart people have rated that dave will never watch. Even in North America dave doesn't watch a ton of lucha, and when it comes to places like ROH he only watched what gabe or others sent him in the pre TV/iPPV days. People were/are rating all of this stuff.

 

I've got fairly comprehensive lists of my ratings from 2007-2014 if that's any use to Mookie. Only issue would be lucha not having a huge presence on them.

[mookeighana]

I did get the Keller ratings. I always accept large lists of match ratings! Where should I look?

[KrisZ]

Taue is so much like Sakaguchi to me in stature wise....working wise Taue was way better no doubt but when it came down to pecking order while getting runs here and there he was putting out Yellow Submarine while Misawa, Kobashi, & Kawada were putting out Hey Jude, Revolution, & Something.

[soup23]

Somebody with more time on their hands than me should seek out other match ratings aside from dave's. Keller, Scott Keith, Loss, Alan4L, Ryan Clingman, the devilishly handsome Joe Lanza, whoever. I know mookie was looking for a comprehensive Keller listing, not sure if he ever found it.

 

If seven people rate a PPV or a big show, and five of them go 4 or higher on a given match, you can reasonably surmise that it was a pretty damn great match. A compilation of matches that were rated by more than just one person, with a high/low plus average rating, would be more interesting to analyze than just dave's opinion. There are probably thousands of puro matches alone that plenty of smart people have rated that dave will never watch. Even in North America dave doesn't watch a ton of lucha, and when it comes to places like ROH he only watched what gabe or others sent him in the pre TV/iPPV days. People were/are rating all of this stuff.

 

I think this is a spotty mess right now internationally with the current resources we have comprising of Dave spottyness and throwing out vague ratings like "at least ****" in Observers, Keller who was pretty much off the map, Lorefice, Bahari, and others with some spottiness and quite frankly weird tendencies. i do think the Yearbook project should help at least clarify the 90's somewhat as within the next few years, you will have a collection of people that have went through all of them and can provide opinions on things.

[Alan4L]

I did get the Keller ratings. I always accept large lists of match ratings! Where should I look?

 

I'll send you my word docs

[soup23]

For me, Taue needed to do more in the 2000s to push him to HOF level. He had some good moments, and even some great ones (the Marufuji match in 06 and the nostalgia title run) but he also had alot of rough patches. Due to his body type being not the most durable, he was unable to have that "veteran who can still go" run that someone like Tenryu had or that Akiyama is having now. Another knock on him was that he wasn't ever used for big matches outside of his home promotion. Compared to Nagata and Akiyama who were brought in by other promotions to have dream matches, carry tournaments and even title runs.... that hurts Taue for me.

 

I agree that Taue is spotty in NOAH but he still has some good longevity of great matches compared to some. The 9/30/90 tag and the 3/2006 Marifuji match are a long way apart from each other and those are two fantastic Taue performances.

 

I would even argue he was still good in the 2009 tags. He may not have been able to go all the time in the oughts but when they called upon him, he seemed to deliver every time out.

 

The other promotions thing is an interesting point and a valid one against Taue. I guess his only shot at prominence really was the New Japan vs. NOAH stuff in 2002.

 

I do think Taue's placement in the Dome shows is odd and also hurts him to some extent. Like I explained in my post, the 1999 Dome Show is really Baba Memorial, Vader vs. Misawa and everything else but he was in a pretty high profile match. The other three domes, he was a non-factor.

[ohtani's jacket]

Since when did Taue have a larger than life personality? Sometimes it feels like people create their own characters for these guys.

[Matt D]

Since when did Taue have a larger than life personality? Sometimes it feels like people create their own characters for these guys.

 

God dammit, OJ. He's this big surly dude who takes pleasure out of getting guys into atomic drop position and just tossing them across the ring, and that's when he's not chucking them around by their throat or dumping them over the top rope. I got so much out of him in those matches and I had no idea who he was coming in, and that was over multiple matches. I wasn't trying to be contrary. Apparently i just didn't know better (Again).

[ohtani's jacket]

Antonio Inoki was a larger than life personality. So did Riki Choshu. Taue was a country boy who'd rather be fishing than wrestling. The rep on Taue early in his career was that he was lazy. They stuck him with Jumbo and he has every bit the look of a prospect who's not coming along as well as they'd like. I love the guy, but the blank state he had much of the time is not indicative of a larger than life personality. He became more grizzled later on, but people new to AJPW latch onto him because they're looking for a heel/face dynamic. That's my take on it, anyway.

[kjh]

I think the impressive thing about Taue's NOAH run is that whenever they decided to put the spotlight on him, he usually delivered.