2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[NintendoLogic]

As far as I'm concerned, Taue could have fallen off the face of the Earth in 2000 and he'd still be a Hall of Famer. The occasional flashes of brilliance in NOAH are gravy.

[PeteF3]

Antonio Inoki was a larger than life personality. So did Riki Choshu. Taue was a country boy who'd rather be fishing than wrestling. The rep on Taue early in his career was that he was lazy.

 

He's the Adam Dunn of pro wrestling, then. (For the 75% of you who don't get that, just trust me).

[evilclown]

Taue was pushed because he was tall. Period.

 

He is awkward, not particularly athletic and his execution of wrestling moves is poor.

 

Kobashi, Kawada, Misawa, Tsuruta, Gordy, Hansen, Williams, Kikuchi, Fuchi, Yatsu, Can Ams, Akiyama etc were all better workers in my opinion. He's a guy who was a part of something special, not a guy who created something special.

[soup23]

I think you are being way too dismissive of Taue.

 

On the list of people you named, name one singles match Gordy had on that list that was better than any singles match Taue had with the same guy. Not like Gordy didn't have opportunities either.

 

Williams had some classics with those but also some inconsistent performances sprinkled in. He also has a much shorter peak as Taue. I don't think either was particularly anything of note until 1990 but by 1997, Doc is a non factor while Taue when called upon was still delivering the goods.

 

No metrics I can find show Kikuchi, Fuchi and Yatsu as being better than Taue and I like all three of those guys a lot.

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, career vs. career Taue absolutely smokes Gordy. That's especially true if you look solely at their work in All Japan.

[WingedEagle]

Taue was pushed because he was tall. Period.

 

He is awkward, not particularly athletic and his execution of wrestling moves is poor.

 

Kobashi, Kawada, Misawa, Tsuruta, Gordy, Hansen, Williams, Kikuchi, Fuchi, Yatsu, Can Ams, Akiyama etc were all better workers in my opinion. He's a guy who was a part of something special, not a guy who created something special.

 

It sounds like Taue simply didn't click at all for you, which is really a shame. I think Fuchi is one of the more underrated wrestlers from that period, but couldn't begin to sell myself on him at Taue's level.

 

I also think Taue's awkwardness and lack of athleticism, and how he worked around them, are part of what makes him so unique and compelling. But you're reading apathy and boredom into what the rest of us see as a dickish heel who can't believe someone like Kobashi would make him expend energy just to hold onto his tag titles. Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you with respect to him.

[Matt D]

He is awkward, not particularly athletic and his execution of wrestling moves is poor.

 

 

I know you may find this incredibly counterintuitive or just contrary but those are not the things I really care about the most when it comes to what I think good and special pro wrestling is. If you have read any of my previous thoughts on anything then you would know I'm not trolling you here.

[Dylan Waco]

Shawn Michaels was pushed because Vince has a psychosexual crush on him. Not a Hall of Famer?

[kjh]

Depends if that was a common affliction amongst the Hall of Fame voters.

[evilclown]

But you're reading apathy and boredom into what the rest of us see as a dickish heel who can't believe someone like Kobashi would make him expend energy just to hold onto his tag titles. Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you with respect to him.

 

I love when someone here takes a view counter to the traditional wisdom about a wrestler and then says things like "Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you" like I'm the one out in left field. The onus is on you to explain why everyone has been wrong for two decades, not vice versa.

 

I like Taue. I think it's commendable that he was able to take part in some classic wrestling matches without ruining them. It's also clear that All Japan's fans, hierarchy and contemporary American fans didn't see him on the same level as the promotion's top stars. There's such a desperation in some circles to be the one to "discover" someone that people are able to talk themselves into things that are self-evidently not true.

[FedEx227]

Using the merchandise argument is a slippery slope, during the "Attitude era" didn't the New Age Outlaws sell more then just about everybody but Austin? I think Punk's biggest case is influence, and I'd just think it's way to early to go on that.

 

I think you may be right about the NAO or to an extent DX was probably right up there. Are we looking for a way to discredit guys that were big merch sellers? If so, why? Why can't it be a feather in someone's cap that they sold a ton of shirts?

 

I think its profound aspect of "drawing" in this modern era, especially in WWE where the brand's reputation is so powerful (which makes buys, attendance tough to measure on an individual level)

[KrisZ]

Depends if that was a common affliction amongst the Hall of Fame voters.

I'm sure some felt the same way

[WingedEagle]

 

But you're reading apathy and boredom into what the rest of us see as a dickish heel who can't believe someone like Kobashi would make him expend energy just to hold onto his tag titles. Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you with respect to him.

 

I love when someone here takes a view counter to the traditional wisdom about a wrestler and then says things like "Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you" like I'm the one out in left field. The onus is on you to explain why everyone has been wrong for two decades, not vice versa.

 

I like Taue. I think it's commendable that he was able to take part in some classic wrestling matches without ruining them. It's also clear that All Japan's fans, hierarchy and contemporary American fans didn't see him on the same level as the promotion's top stars. There's such a desperation in some circles to be the one to "discover" someone that people are able to talk themselves into things that are self-evidently not true.

 

 

I can't imagine you'd have such strong thoughts on Taue if you haven't watched a lot of his matches. If you have watched a lot of his matches, its doubtful you're going to markedly change your mind on him. Is that such an outlandish suggestion?

Wisdom is not conventional because it is yours. Where has the opinion that Taue was a middle of the pack worker for AJPW during that era become commonplace? I'm not aware of it being the case here, in the WON or the few other places online I may visit. And who is discovering anyone here? This is Akira Taue. No one's unearthing anything that people haven't watched for years.

 

Just let me know the grain I'm going against and where all this indifference towards Taue became so prominent and the established CW and I'll be happy to to tell you, subjectively, why I think its bs. On the other hand, I'd like to hear why you find him such a bore, how the fact he wasn't athletic dragged things down or why he was lazy. Have you spoken to him? His motivations would certainly be news to me, but perhaps you can explain why most people I'm aware of who've watched that era of AJPW enjoyed his work.

[NintendoLogic]

All Japan's fans, hierarchy and contemporary American fans thought Bruiser Brody was an all-time great worker.

[Timbo Slice]

Taue doesn't really relate with a lot of newer fans who want an "active" wrestler more than someone more nuanced. Brody, even though he was a shit worker by comparison, was a lot more active in the ring. It's also basically common knowledge that he did just enough each night he was out there just to get by and his work suffered because of it. He's the king of phoning it in.

 

Kobashi was always more accessible because of his fire. Taue shouldn't be looked down upon because he wasn't as active as a guy like Kobashi (Or Toyota. Or Angle.). He definitely should be in.

[Dylan Waco]

 

But you're reading apathy and boredom into what the rest of us see as a dickish heel who can't believe someone like Kobashi would make him expend energy just to hold onto his tag titles. Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you with respect to him.

 

I love when someone here takes a view counter to the traditional wisdom about a wrestler and then says things like "Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you" like I'm the one out in left field. The onus is on you to explain why everyone has been wrong for two decades, not vice versa.

 

I like Taue. I think it's commendable that he was able to take part in some classic wrestling matches without ruining them. It's also clear that All Japan's fans, hierarchy and contemporary American fans didn't see him on the same level as the promotion's top stars. There's such a desperation in some circles to be the one to "discover" someone that people are able to talk themselves into things that are self-evidently not true.

 

 

I couldn't possibly care less about "traditional wisdom" on a wrestler, and can't imagine why anyone would unless they were trying to protect their previous or still existing status as a tastemaker. I care about whether or not I can articulate why I thought a wrestler was good, bad, et. and whether or not someone arguing a counter point can offer something of substance as an alternative view.

 

I was around at the time. There is no question Taue was thought of as the distant fourth guy of the four pillars, particularly as a worker. But there was debate even at the time about whether or not he was just a guy who was plugged into a role and was successful largely because of who he was in there with, or if he was a strong contributing factor to many of the great matches he was involved in. Going further I think it's interesting that people I know who have discovered AJPW well after the fact, and who had little access/exposure to Meltzerian Gospel or other taste making reviewers (and little to no interaction with each other) seem to rate Taue higher than a lot of the AJPW hardcore fans from the era did. It would be one thing if the handful of people represented a similar aesthetic niche or community of fans, but there is really only mild overlap in two cases. The other couple of guys I know have spent little to no time on message boards, and one of them likes many things that I absolutely hate.

 

Also worth noting that the SmarksChoice poll was nearly a decade ago. While it was removed from Taue's peak in All Japan by almost a decade, 50 voters, representing a broad cross section of fandom thought enough of Taue to have him just barely outside of the top twenty-five. The idea that Taue could being seen as an HoFer in large part due to his work because of some revisionist impulse to "discover" someone or something "new" doesn't even pass the laugh test.

[PeteF3]

I'm not sold as Taue on a HOFer but I'm not sold that he's behind all 10 guys listed, either.

 

Gordy - I'm far more down on Gordy than I've ever been. Not every Taue performance is a classic but he hasn't bored me to death nearly as many times as Bam Bam has.

 

Furnas - Fantastic natural athlete who can keep up with any tag worker you care to name, but Kroffat was clearly the leader of the team holding the matches together on their side. There are a number of great Kroffat singles matches. I can't think of one notable singles match Furnas ever had. Hell, I can barely think of any that All-Japan even bothered to air.

 

Kikuchi - He's great, but he's also pretty one-note for me to consider him really better than Taue. He may be a better Ricky Morton than Ricky Morton, but even Ricky is a more well-rounded worker.

 

Yatsu - If we're going by this timeframe as the post implies...by the time Taue was getting a serious push, Yoshiaki was pretty fat and terrible. (There are lots of great fat guys, but Yatsu looked like he was ready to keel over at any time, and generally wrestled as such.)

 

Doc - This one's a lot closer, and I think Doc was the top man in the wrestling world in '94...but outside of a great year and a half run he's awfully comparable to Gordy, and maybe not even as good in singles. Not sure it's just happenstance that Doc's best post-arrest performance comes against Taue.

 

Fuchi - Also close, but he's also kind of a one-note guy, at least in this time frame. I'm not even going to portray Taue as Mr. Versatility the way Kobashi was, but he excelled as a nasty brawler, a tag worker, and as a native babyface against Hansen and Doc. I will say that, going back a few years, Fuchi's brawl with Kobayashi is very comparable to the famous 1/91 Kawada/Taue brawl.

 

That said...I called him the #4 guy in AJPW from a combination talent/work standpoint, but he really should probably be 5th, since there's no reason not to count Hansen in that group. And if you count Jumbo, he'd be 6th. On the Joe vs. the World podcast the comparison was made to Foley in the Attitude Era...I can see the argument, but #3 > #5 or 6, and Taue didn't write a bestselling book that completely changed the wrestling literature world in a way that's still being felt today. Have a Nice Day in my mind is a huge, huge part of Foley's candidacy.

[WingedEagle]

Thanks for providing a little background and context regarding the the SC poll and Taue. I might not have participated in PWO and its predecessors / peers as long as some others, but the idea that Taue is a beneficiary of any recently discovered footage or rethinking doesn't jibe with anything I've seen anywhere.

 

The guy has has been a fringe HOF candidate. Perhaps folks didn't think his work was stellar enough to merit inclusion there, but that's a far cry from not ruining some classics.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree that Foley is a stronger candidate than Taue. Much stronger. My point was more than he was never the top guy, never even arguably the top guy. Very possibly never even the two guy for any meaningful point in time. And there were big chunks of his peak where he was at best the fourth or fifth guy. But that has never really been marshaled as an argument against Foley, while it is often used as an argument against Taue.

 

I don't see Taue as a lock and intellectually I can see arguments against him. I'm far from certain that I will vote for him this year. But he's a guy where my instinctual response is to say that he should be in. I'm not saying that is right, but when I consider him big picture I can certainly come up with a lot of reasons why I think that instinct is right.

[ohtani's jacket]

How can people think they know enough about Taue to vote him into a Hall of Fame simply by watching him on tape? That would never fly for an American candidate. Could you imagine a Japanese fan writing about Bobby Eaton's character or persona without ever hearing a promo from him?

[Timbo Slice]

How can people think they know enough about Taue to vote him into a Hall of Fame simply by watching him on tape? That would never fly for an American candidate. Could you imagine a Japanese fan writing about Bobby Eaton's character or persona without ever hearing a promo from him?

Okay, I laughed.

[Loss]

How can people think they know enough about Taue to vote him into a Hall of Fame simply by watching him on tape? That would never fly for an American candidate. Could you imagine a Japanese fan writing about Bobby Eaton's character or persona without ever hearing a promo from him?

 

Making cases for people based on what's on tape is what we do. What is the preferred method? How many World of Sport matches have you seen live?

[ohtani's jacket]

What we do is on message forums. The WON HOF should be held to a higher standard. I would never advocate a British candidate based on my own impressions of watching him on tape, because they're my impressions, they often fly in the face of accepted wisdom, and they may in fact be wrong.

 

This whole Taue was lazy/not very good until '95 vs. Taue was always good argument is pure message board fodder. If you want to say Taue was nonathletic, then what was his athletic background? What did people think of him as an athlete? How good a sumo wrestler was he? You want to say he was lazy, what did Baba think of him? What did his contemporaries think of him? What did his sumo trainers think of him? You want to praise him as a great dickish heel then tell me about it. What was great about him? I'm sure people could write a tome about why Flair was a great heel.

 

I don't think message board opinions are enough and I don't think tape watching is enough. You can't just say oh well I saw this really great performance from Taue in 1990 so clearly he was better than people claimed at that stage. That's just an opinion. You've got to do the research or ask people who might know people who can help.

[PeteF3]

This sounds dangerously close to the position posited by some people--either implied or explicit--that subjectivity with regard to the Observer HOF is inherently "bad." ("You can't deny Big Daddy's place in the Hall because you don't like his workrate--that's subjective!" Near-verbatim quote from a discussion I had on Classics some years ago). If that's the case, then we should dispense with voting and balloting altogether. Whoever meets the pre-chosen criteria gets in, whoever doesn't doesn't.

[Matt D]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Taue should be in the WON HOF. I don't know. I haven't done the research. I was just commenting on my impressions of the matches that I saw and then further commenting after Snowden's response which I found borderline insulting considering how consistent my enjoyment of Taue is to most of the other things I like and how many words I spew out to back most of this stuff up. I apologize for any thread drift in this specific case (and only this case) partially caused by me.