Bret Hart

[Death From Above]

Bret's a really weird case because I think he has all the components but he's so clearly a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Frankly he'd be so much better if he had the current WWE roster to work with than pretty much any period he had a large push in his real career. Bret vs. Rusev would have ruled. Bret vs. Cessaro would have ruled. He had so few guys that had that kind of skillset to play off of for large periods of time. There are so many guys there now that if Brett could have worked with them, I could see his case being a lot stronger. Other than Owen and Shawn (and one match with the British Bulldog) just too often he lacked an opponent capable of getting to the next level. And you can argue he's not even really that great a Shawn opponent.

 

I don't think the whole history of wrestling TV being so much better cataloged now than it was a decade ago does anyone that worked in the WWF in the early 1990's any favours at all to be honest. It's just impossible to get around the fact that such a glaringly high percentage of their wrestling is filler and not even particularly good filler.

 

For a guy that was on TV every week for a million years his catalog of legitimately high end matches is incredibly weak. There are Mexican workers where we're missing a decade of their career that can easily match his accepted "high end" output. There are just so many guys that worked All and New Japan TV in the first half of the 90's that can blow his catalog away just on that alone. Pre-neck injury Chono probably has as many if not more high end TV matches then a career of Bret Hart when in the early 90's he was almost a weekly anchor sent out there to guarantee a solid TV match, and nobody even takes Chono seriously as a candidate in the big picture because the back end of his career is what it is (even though the back end of his career is still worlds above Bret's WCW run). Again I think in a sense this is not entirely Bret's fault, but it is what it is. Too often he was stuck working Kamala or whatever. I think he actually does a good job getting matches out of guys that were 80% gimmick but there's only so far that can take you in a GOAT poll.

 

I think his Wrestlemania match with Austin is a contender for best match ever in the Vince-run "WWF years". It's just a shame there isn't so much more like it we can compare it to. It's eternally frustrating that Bret/Austin and the Canada/USA thing was en fuego but it happens just before Bret really vanishes as a meaningful force in wrestling due to, again, a lot of things that aren't really Bret's fault.

 

His WCW run is a disaster. I didn't mind his dream match with Sting but I've never heard anyone bring it up as some kind of all time classic. WCW bought into the theory that Bret was a superworker that couldn't talk and they miscast him almost from the moment he arrived. Between that and some not-very-subtle politics from OTHER PEOPLE, Bret's WCW run is just fucked all round.

 

I would question the traditional logic that Bret lacked the charisma of some other stars. Bret was the only good serious promo in the WWF for a really long stretch where he was surrounded by cartoons and I agree that was absolutely part of his appeal. He absolutely sold wrestling to a lot of kids and teenagers, maybe I'm skewed on this being a Canadian. But I don't get this one on Bret. I actually think a lot of people have him kind of backwards, overrating his catalog of work in the ring and underrating him as a promo. His promos were a huge part of carrying WWF TV in a period where there's almost no high end MOTYC kind of wrestling to be found anywhere in the company.

 

I don't dislike Bret; I'm from Alberta, he was probably my favourite wrestler in the world before THE INTERNET, but I find his GOAT case to be built around a lot of asterisked things that don't really hold up very well. I just don't understand a case for him near the top of the ballot. He's a very good wrestler stuck in a company that hated very good wrestling for far too long.

[fxnj]

You're really underselling Bret's opponents. It's true that he was often the guy called on to make the Papa Shangos and Isaac Yankems of the roster look good, but he was just as often positioned to have epics with guys who could go to the next level, like Flair, Hennig, and Backlund. Before that he also wrestled as a tag guy during the peak of WWF tag wrestling, so I'm not seeing him held back by quality of opponents at any point in his career.

 

On the TV point, the thing to keep in mind is that the WWF's business model then was still to use TV to build to house shows, particularly the monthly MSG shows. The Japan guys are a bad comparison since over there it's the opposite mentality turn it up for TV and take it easy on house shows. The best available representation of Bret as a week-to-week worker in that period isn't the TV squashes but the CHV and house show handhelds, and I'd be interested if they ever got serious look.

[JerryvonKramer]

I recall him having a match with Dino Bravo on ... maybe one of the Supertapes. This is when Bravo had dark hair late 91 or early 92, and not long before he left. I think it took place in Germany. I remember that one going quite long. That's one to look at. What can Bret do against a complete stiff?

 

My memory is that it wasn't very good. Also, and again this is going on something I watched maybe 15 years ago, I'm pretty sure that match was a random "fan request". Who the hell requested Bret Hart vs. Dino Bravo? Was it you Kelly? Grimmas?

[thebrainfollower]

Bret-Bravo with dark hair isn't on any US CHV but it might have been a UK one.

[Matt D]

When it comes to CVs that Parv hasn't seen in 20 years, I trust him most when he's talking about Lord Alfred Hayes teaching Sherri etiquette.

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh ye of little faith.

 

 

God knows which of my tapes it was on though. One from 92.

[thebrainfollower]

Yes but as I said in my post Parv that's a UK or European exclusive Coliseum Video. It was never released in the US. I have a full set of them either original (about 120 or so) or as online rips.

 

The 4 UK PPV's from the Hogan era (October of 89, April of 91, October 91 and April 92) never had US releases though odd matches here and there turned up on CHV's from time to time.

[thebrainfollower]

It's also the match where Dino became a Bret Hart fan, if you believe Bret's book.

[JerryvonKramer]

Curious. I've been searching and searching and can't find the tape that would have been on.

 

I have learned something though:

 

Dino Bravo actually left the WWF after the Texas Tornado match at Wrestlemania VII and then CAME BACK -- with the dark hair -- apparently to do a babyface run at Canadian House shows. And it looks like he was roped in to the European tour too, because he crops up a few times. One time tagging with Col. Mustafa vs. the Road Warriors.

 

Also, this has kinda jogged my memory a bit. Bret was ALL OVER those early 90s tapes and is arguably the MVP of them. He has decent matches sprinkled all over the place which go 10-20 mins. Definitely the "CHV worker" of that era.

[thebrainfollower]

The European tours were actually good money makers. Guys would do them and THEN get canned as a kindness from Vince, nothing roped in about them.

 

Except for the Warlord who legit freaked out during one at being away from home for so long.

[ohtani's jacket]

My theory about Bret has always been that he preferred working against less talented guys. I reckon he got a bigger kick out of carrying them than he did working with top level guys.

[Sidebottom]

My theory about Bret has always been that he preferred working against less talented guys. I reckon he got a bigger kick out of carrying them than he did working with top level guys.

 

I don't know hwy you think this OJ, in his book he often expressed frustration with being in there with rubbish wrestlers (Mongo comes to mind in WCW as receiving a thrashing), whereas he gets giddy speaking about his bouts with Waltman, Piper, Perfect, etc. Also, you sense a genuine frustration that he couldn't wrestle certain wrestlers at certain times (Steamboat at WM2) and a televised match with Savage being stripped down from their ideals. I guess on the flip side you could make the argument he really wanted to help Goldberg be more rounded, early zombie Undertaker, Yokozuna in 93 etc. I get the feeling Bret cared if there was potential to "be the one" who could have a great match with a limited opponent, if that opponent was either a star, or poised to be one, but couldn't care too much if it were a throw away match with, say Mongo, who was going nowhere.

[ohtani's jacket]

I could be, and probably am, wrong, but that's my impression of listening to Bret all these years and watching his matches. I suspect Bret's pride in himself as a worker is that you could put him in the ring with anyone and he could have a good match with anyone. If he was more interested in working with good talent, he didn't seem that way during his peak years. He should have jumped to WCW in '92 if that was what was motivating him.

[BigBadMick]

Bret in WCW in '92...where's that dream matches thread?

[Loss]

I could be, and probably am, wrong, but that's my impression of listening to Bret all these years and watching his matches. I suspect Bret's pride in himself as a worker is that you could put him in the ring with anyone and he could have a good match with anyone. If he was more interested in working with good talent, he didn't seem that way during his peak years. He should have jumped to WCW in '92 if that was what was motivating him.

 

Bret probably didn't know WCW had the superior talent roster. He was pretty out of it when it came to wrestling outside his bubble.

[Sidebottom]

Bret in WCW 92 is such an interesting one. You had Rude having an AMAZING streak there which I rate really highly, I think there would have been gold there. Vader in 1992 monster mode vs babyface Bret just seems perfect on paper, Sting at a very different time and place to their 98/99 efforts (which I thought were quite good for the record), Steamboat, Cactus Jack which I've mentioned elsewhere on the board... Really interesting.

[DR Ackermann]

Even if OJ is wrong, I think there is something to what he's saying. Bret was by far his own biggest fan and very much wrapped up in himself and I think the choices he made as a wrestler reflect that.

[DR Ackermann]

He's actually very lucky that he was put in a position to have the matches he had in the WWF. He didn't have his way like Hogan, but he got chances that played to his strengths as a worker that few others did at the time in the WWF.

[Parties]

I really do like Bret and he'll make my list somewhere between #70-100, but he suffers from fatigue for me. He's been discussed so exhaustively and his matches so watched and analyzed due to being the WWF ace at a time when we all grew up watching him. He's not unlike Flair/Brisco/Jumbo in that I know what I'm getting, I genuinely consider it great, but it just ain't hip right now. In some ways I revere him for being probably the all-time best at that style in that company. The Submission Match with Austin was my #1 all-time WWF/E match in the Smarkschoice poll, and I'd probably still say so. But because his role, time, and place get discussed endlessly, it rarely feels like there's a new/riveting/fresh perspective on him. I don't wanna unfairly fault the guy for being phenomenal in a capacity that I find kind of stale right now, but that's where I'm at with him.

[fxnj]

He's actually very lucky that he was put in a position to have the matches he had in the WWF. He didn't have his way like Hogan, but he got chances that played to his strengths as a worker that few others did at the time in the WWF.

Yeah, I was gonna say I think a huge portion of his rep as an all-time great is derived from how the company positioned him, first as a top tag guy when that division was often carrying the workrate on the cards, and then as a top singles guy when the promotion wanted to distance itself from the Hogan era by pushing a more athletic style. I don't think it would have been a good idea for him to go to WCW at any point as the greater talent pool means a higher chance of getting lost in the shuffle and getting less opportunities for great matches.

[Sidebottom]

He didn't have his way like Hogan, but he got chances that played to his strengths as a worker that few others did at the time in the WWF.

 

I wrote a post about this a few weeks ago. It might be what he wanted, but it would probably have gone very very poorly for him.

[fxnj]

I really do like Bret and he'll make my list somewhere between #70-100, but he suffers from fatigue for me. He's been discussed so exhaustively and his matches so watched and analyzed due to being the WWF ace at a time when we all grew up watching him. He's not unlike Flair/Brisco/Jumbo in that I know what I'm getting, I genuinely consider it great, but it just ain't hip right now. In some ways I revere him for being probably the all-time best at that style in that company. The Submission Match with Austin was my #1 all-time WWF/E match in the Smarkschoice poll, and I'd probably still say so. But because his role, time, and place get discussed endlessly, it rarely feels like there's a new/riveting/fresh perspective on him. I don't wanna unfairly fault the guy for being phenomenal in a capacity that I find kind of stale right now, but that's where I'm at with him.

I don't agree at all that he's stale to talk about. In fact, with all the handheld matches and other rare gems that have been cropping up on YouTube, I'd say it's pretty interesting part of his case to examine, especially given the old claim that he dogged it on the small shows.

 

On that note, I have been watching some of said handhelds and rare gems lately, and I can confidently call the claim that he dogged it on small shows bullshit. His style may not have translated well to short Raw matches, but when he got time to work he seems pretty consistent in delivering entertaining and logically built matches often carried by his selling

 

Bret Hart vs Undertaker 11/25/95

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kwCtwR3DY

 

Match starts slow with Taker doing his invincible zombie shtick, but that ends up working really well to set up the rest of the match with it feeling like a big deal every time he sells later on. The size difference is worked very well with Bret usually relying on strategy and high risk moves to get the advantage while Taker relies more on raw power. Match builds to a hot stretch run that really gets the crowd going after they spent the earlier portion cheering for Diesel.

 

Bret Hart vs Diesel 1/26/96

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwsi6s992hw

 

Kind of a similar dynamic to the Undertaker match, but a lot more back-and-forth as Bret doesn't have to work around a zombie gimmick. Also, it's much shorter so it's worked as more of an action sprint. It doesn't reach the same heights as the Taker match, but does have a hot crowd throughout and Bret makes Diesel like a total badass throughout with his selling.

 

Bret Hart vs Lex Luger

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13txz_bret-hart-vs-lex-luger_sport

 

Not sure about date, but it's seems to be shortly after Wrestlemamia IX as Bret is a former champ against a still heel Luger. This actually seems like it's mainly a showcase for Luger as he really brings his working boots to show that he can hang with Bret. His control segment is really good stuff and I really dug his execution of the hold where his grinds his knee against Bret's back in particular. The credit to Bret here is that he knew when to step aside and help another guy get over as he always sells well for Luger's offense and when it's time for a comeback, the way that he sells on offense brings a sense of weariness and desperation.

 

Haven't seen the Bravo match, but if it is bad I don't see it as too much of a strike against him considering it's 1992 Dino Bravo.

[soup23]

 

I really do like Bret and he'll make my list somewhere between #70-100, but he suffers from fatigue for me. He's been discussed so exhaustively and his matches so watched and analyzed due to being the WWF ace at a time when we all grew up watching him. He's not unlike Flair/Brisco/Jumbo in that I know what I'm getting, I genuinely consider it great, but it just ain't hip right now. In some ways I revere him for being probably the all-time best at that style in that company. The Submission Match with Austin was my #1 all-time WWF/E match in the Smarkschoice poll, and I'd probably still say so. But because his role, time, and place get discussed endlessly, it rarely feels like there's a new/riveting/fresh perspective on him. I don't wanna unfairly fault the guy for being phenomenal in a capacity that I find kind of stale right now, but that's where I'm at with him.

I don't agree at all that he's stale to talk about. In fact, with all the handheld matches and other rare gems that have been cropping up on YouTube, I'd say it's pretty interesting part of his case to examine, especially given the old claim that he dogged it on the small shows.

 

On that note, I have been watching some of said handhelds and rare gems lately, and I can confidently call the claim that he dogged it on small shows bullshit. His style may not have translated well to short Raw matches, but when he got time to work he seems pretty consistent in delivering entertaining and logically built matches often carried by his selling

 

Bret Hart vs Undertaker 11/25/95

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v6kwCtwR3DY

 

Match starts slow with Taker doing his invincible zombie shtick, but that ends up working really well to set up the rest of the match with it feeling like a big deal every time he sells later on. The size difference is worked very well with Bret usually relying on strategy and high risk moves to get the advantage while Taker relies more on raw power. Match builds to a hot stretch run that really gets the crowd going after they spent the earlier portion cheering for Diesel.

 

Bret Hart vs Diesel 1/26/96

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwsi6s992hw

 

Kind of a similar dynamic to the Undertaker match, but a lot more back-and-forth as Bret doesn't have to work around a zombie gimmick. Also, it's much shorter so it's worked as more of an action sprint. It doesn't reach the same heights as the Taker match, but does have a hot crowd throughout and Bret makes Diesel like a total badass throughout with his selling.

 

Bret Hart vs Lex Luger

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13txz_bret-hart-vs-lex-luger_sport

 

Not sure about date, but it's seems to be shortly after Wrestlemamia IX as Bret is a former champ against a still heel Luger. This actually seems like it's mainly a showcase for Luger as he really brings his working boots to show that he can hang with Bret. His control segment is really good stuff and I really dug his execution of the hold where his grinds his knee against Bret's back in particular. The credit to Bret here is that he knew when to step aside and help another guy get over as he always sells well for Luger's offense and when it's time for a comeback, the way that he sells on offense brings a sense of weariness and desperation.

 

Haven't seen the Bravo match, but if it is bad I don't see it as too much of a strike against him considering it's 1992 Dino Bravo.

 

 

 

That Luger vs. Hart match was really damming to Bret when I watched it around a year ago. Bret will most certainly make my list but he does have those matches where you are waiting for something special that could happen and they never do. Here he is really outworked by Luger and in straight autopilot mode. The match vs. Tom Prtichard from a 94 Raw showed him being disinterested in doing anything with someone that was being really capable in another promotion at the same time. He has other stuff that I have watched recently vs. Fatu from an early Raw. That again isn't a match I expect to be great, but it is an opportunity for Bret to show me something and help his case in the depth department.

[The Man in Blak]

Okay, let's try to run through this Luger match:

 

They break from the usual start with a chase where both Bret and Luger get to work the crowd a little bit. (I'd ask why Luger is running from Bret at the beginning -- he's still working the Narcissist gimmick here -- but that feels more like a Luger issue than a Bret one.) Bret transitions into some opening armwork and he's not just sitting in holds - he progresses through a couple of different armbar modulations during the opening shine, driving his knee into the side of Luger's head to further stretch the arm, then switching to the front to work the shoulder more. Luger eventually gets to a rope break, leading to a cheapshot elbow and some demonstrative selling of the arm. Luger continues to work the crowd as he dumps Bret outside and roughs him up a bit with the apron. Then Luger decides to grab a side headlock and walk aaaaaaall the way to the other side of the ring before trying to put Hart into the outside railing, which is like a glowing red sign for Hart to counter (and he does). Some decent fire from Bret as he pounds on Luger in response, who's trying to get some separation outside the ring. They get back in and Luger begs off, but Bret is having none of it, pounding on Luger until he gets a thumb to the eye. Luger re-establishes and shows some power with a couple of irish whips to the turnbuckle -- no sternum-first bumps here! -- but seems to lose his way a little bit as he goes for a nearfall/reversal sequence framed around jawing at the referee (which continues even after Bret interrupts him with a school boy for a nearfall). Luger feeling that he already deserves to win is an interesting bit of character work as narcissistic hubris, I guess, and Hebner tries to pay it off with a faster count on Bret's school boy, but this entire sequence feels like something that would have been more effective if it happened later in the match.

 

Luger eventually follows this with a set of chinlocks. Bret draws the crowd in a bit on the first chinlock before working his way up to a top wristlock counter, which Luger cuts off with a hair grab in a decent heel spot. The second chinlock is a more standard comeback and cutoff -- a missed opportunity for both guys to do something more interesting there. And, again, Luger continues to take his time throughout this match, overtly telegraphing every hope spot for Bret. A sunset flip reversal has Luger showing some ass in more ways than one, then a suplex reversal teases a comeback for Bret. Bret ducks a wild punch and pulls Luger into a Weaver Lock, er, sleeperhold, but Luger drives him back into the turnbuckle to cut him off again. That's a nice nod to history there, even if I imagine it's more attributable to Luger than Bret. Now we get an empty roll-up reversal/counter-reversal sequence goes nowhere and Luger again takes his sweet time following up; that's one cutoff too many from Luger, I think.

 

Luger finally turns around and returns to Bret, whose oversell of that failed rollup attempt pays off as he catches Luger by surprise with an inverted atomic drop and a clothesline to buy a nearfall. Bret meanders a little bit with some punches before getting the Russian leg sweep for a nearfall. Maybe Bret was trying to tease yet another Luger cutoff? Bret surprises the crowd with an inside cradle for a nearfall, then we get the backbreaker and elbow drop from the second turnbuckle for another nearfall. Luger is doing a good job of milking these nearfalls with late kickouts. Bret grabs a side headlock, Luger pushes off and they collide. A roll-up by Bret gets two, then he shakes off a roll-up attempt by Luger before going for the sharpshooter and inviting a Razor Ramon run-in, which ends the match. That last set of roll-ups was so awkward and out of place for both guys that I wonder if Hall missed a cue to run in when they collided with each other.

 

Do I think the match is great? No, but I'd say it's good, at least until the busted finish. It's interesting that you feel that Luger outworks Bret here; Luger is certainly more demonstrative, but his pace in the match is so glacial that, eventually, most of his schtick starts to feel like wasted time. It never feels earned in this match - Luger isn't full of himself because he's a great wrestler, he's full of himself as the Narcissist because he has a great body (which is substantially off target from Luger's more effective characterization as a cocky heel in NWA/WCW before this.)

 

I will certainly concede that one of Bret's bigger weaknesses as a babyface is that he doesn't really show a great deal of fire but, even if he did here, I think it would feel out of place because Luger never shows any sort of emotional escalation or mean streak while he's on top either. You could argue that Bret should be selling more of Luger's schtick early on with some animosity, I guess, but there's no real history between the two and that doesn't really line up with Bret's character. (And maybe that's where we need to return to GOTNW's point about stoicism in North American wrestling.) For Bret, victory is the preferred form of revenge, so he simply outwrestles Luger during his shine and forces him to cheat to get the upper hand, which is basic babyface work. Maybe one of those arm drags early on could have led to Luger bailing out to take a powder while Bret played to the crowd a bit, but they already sort of hit that note with the ending to the opening chase.

 

I also don't see this match as Luger outworking Bret. He might be working harder, but he's certainly not working smarter - his trip all the way across the outside of the ring in the opening is silly and the slow/fast count contrast sequence with Hebner happens too early in the match for the fans to take it as much more than a too-subtle comedy spot.

 

Ultimately, I see this as a solid match -- if you put a gun to my head for snowflakes, let's say ***1/4 -- where Luger spends a bit too much time on top trying to escalate the fan reaction without escalating the actual action in the ring. I don't mean that as a sort of MOVEZ~! critique as much as an observation that Luger's character work takes away more from the match in pacing than it adds in emotional engagement.

[Slasher]

Two things-

 

1. To Sidebottom, I don't think Bret had bad offense or anything like that. He has always been my favorite of "technical" wrestlers that have come through history. i am one of those few who would happily watch him work than Ric Flair. My thinking though is when I think of high end offense there are few different ways to have it. You can be a guy who leaves his feet often or fly around or just having a lot of athletic spots in your repertoire. Or you can be a guy who can throw people around in suplexes and tosses with amazing power. Or you can be a vicious mat worker who likes to hear the crack of bones in every possible skeletal joint in your opponent's body. You can be a guy who eats people alive by cutting their space with battering attacks. But Bret doesn't really do any of that. Foley is a guy who shines in matches with people who can do any of those things because he knows how to make it look extra visually appealing. Bret works a match where you can almost see that he is the tortoise in a race against a hare and working steadily to the point the bell rings and it is over. He breaks people down in a crisp and proficient manner but it's not that visually impressive. He isn't a Michael Jordan with a wagging tongue scoring in amazing ways and making people go nuts. He is more like a John Stockton. He just plays his game and you don't realize how good he is until you look at the box score. That's not a good Foley foil.

 

2. I think the bigger aspect of Bret preferring to work the luggages of the professional wrestling world is that it's not just about him getting his ego stroked for carrying people. It is more that Bret prefers people who respects him so much they let him have the match he wants. He doesn't like to be told by Ric Flair that he has to let him do Flair flops in points of a match that Bret disagrees with timing of. He almost craves total autonomy over his match planning. Lugs let him do it so he likes it.