Matt D Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 Dotdotkins posted a stitched together 58 minute Brunzell vs Bockwinkel match. I do think we've had it in parts previously, but not put together like this. I'm still a few days from being able to check it out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 Ok, so on second thought, I found time. There are about two minutes cut out but anyone who's seen a decent amount of Bock knows what it probably was (Brunzell ending the Bock control/KOTM segment with a revenge leg posting from the outside, a minute of legwork, into the figure four that we come back to). I really liked it. There was a point around the 48 minute mark where I thought maybe they should go home, but they transitioned into some backwork a couple of minutes later and Bock being vulnerable made it work towards the finish. It's hard to talk about a 60 minute match in a few sentences and I don't have the time to break the whole thing down. This is probably Brunzell's career match that we have on tape. He's got the Jumbo match and some really great High Flyers matches but he definitely held his own here. The selling was great from start to finish, both the dueling arm/leg limb selling, including in really logical ways while on offense. I think there are discernible chapter breaks that build off of what came before instead of forgetting or ignoring it, with callbacks and selling between chapters (though not where it would no longer make sense or matter, but far more than you'd get from a lot of similar matches, especially from Bockwinkel). The late match selling over the last twenty minutes or so, the exhaustion and desperation is really great. I'm not sure anyone is better at selling of cumulative damage than Bockwinkel and while we see that in 30-40 minute matches,we rarely get to really see it in 60 minute matches and he's the best at it. Very curious what other people think even though I know some people have seen at least part of this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted May 12, 2016 Report Share Posted May 12, 2016 Wow! Huge find. Only 35 minutes has been available previously. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conker8 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Just a taste of what we DON'T have: 2/20/64 Medford Card held at the Armory 1. Tony Borne beat Pedro Lopez 2. Bobby Duranton defeated Don Duffy 3. Mad Mongol & Haru Sasaki defeated Paddy Barrett & Nick Kozak MAIN EVENT In a 2 out of 3 Falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title 4. Lou Thesz drew with Nick Bockwinkel when Bockwinkel tied Thesz one fall a piece and the 3rd fall ended at the 60:00 minute mark to make it a draw --- Bock was going for the NWA title as early as 64. Just think about that. He faced Buddy Rogers for the NWA Belt. 07/25/61 Dallas, TX Nick Bockwinkel lost to Buddy Rogers (NWA World champion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 On 3/9/2016 at 11:07 AM, Matt D said: A Case for Bockwinkel: (I feel like it's a shame that people have already started voting. We just had a case for Michaels go up a couple of days ago and a case for Funk go up yesterday or the day before. We're in the final argument stage of things and parts of the jury are voting already. I'm going to try to rush this out then. I wish I could do try to match that great Satanico post, but no can do. It's a busy week, but here goes:) There are so many things that Nick Bockwinkel did so well that it's hard to even know where to start. What I'd like to do, to begin, is list out his range, a number of roles that he was effective in playing, and that he was able to wrestle good to great matches (some all-timers) while achieving. This is in no order: 1. Bumping, stooging heel for aging legend (Vs Verne, Mad Dog, Crusher, Baron) 2. Bumping, stooging vulnerable champion for up and and coming Ace babyface (Vs Hogan) 3. Reluctantly cheered champion holding the line vs a foreign threat (Vs Al-Kassie) 4. Comedy kingpin with a bunch of goons vs Super-babyfaces (with Heenan family Vs. Andre and Hogan) 5. Heel champion Ace vs technical up and coming babyfaces (vs Rheingans) 6. Tag role of the same (With Stevens vs High Flyers) 7. Southern tag heel (w/Saito vs Gagnes or Hennigs, or High-flyers) 8. Confident heel champ vs established technical opponent (vs Martel) 9. Same as a heel challenger establishing said new babyface champ. 10. Vulnerable but dangerous heel champion against deadly brawler (vs Wahoo) 11. Travelling champ who underestimates local hero (vs Chavo) 12. Snobby outsider champ who DOESN'T underestimate local hero but has to have a number of varied matches with him without losing the title (vs Lawler) 13. Fiery babyface wanting revenge (crazy sprint vs Zbyszko) 14. John Wayne (vs Hansen) 15. Super technical in front of a Japanese audience (vs Funk and vs Robinson) 16. Aging, cagey veteran trying to survive against a young babyface slowly surpassing him (vs Hennig) 17. US Supermatch that has to end in a draw (vs. Flair) 18. Travelling heel champ stooging big for the local hero while staying credible (vs JYD) 19. Desperate heel up against monsters (the clips we have vs Andre or Ladd) 20. Very strong shorter match TV worker during the Showboat era (vs. Debeers) And that's what we have from maybe 76-86, when he around 40 to just over 50. He spent decades of his career as a babyface. And there are more. I just picked twenty different in-ring functions that he had to do and had to do well, many of them calling upon different skills and talents, that involve someone actively wrestling differently. I could have given more examples of matches for almost every category too, with almost all of them being very good to great. That, to me is amazing. The only other people who would come close to this are #1 contenders, and almost all of those benefit from us having much more of their physical prime on tape or from working more broadly in multiple territories (though Bock, of course did. We just don't have a ton of that on tape; most of what we do is great). He was able to accomplish this through deeply and thoroughly understanding pro wrestling and storytelling, through engaging the crowd, through knowing when to give and when to take, knowing how to maximize moments and momentum, to fully committing to his role at all times. He was incredible at portraying emotion in matches, jubilant when causing punishment and terrified when getting overwhelmed. He refused to let the crowd dictate what he was doing, but instead forced them into line with what was best for them and the match, adapting but never surrendering ("You're boring them Martel!" being my favorite single wrestling moment I've seen in the last five years, maybe?). Everything had purpose. There are wrestlers, great wrestlers, who can string more-or-less unrelated chapters together so that their matches are better than the sum of their parts, so that they make a symbolic, thematic, more or less satisfying whole, but Bockwinkel was able to relate the chapters to one another so that he never had to do that. There wasn't that need for symbolism because the text stood on its own. It was finding the perfect moment to turn the babyface's offensive rush into a King of the Mountain heat segment, or how to start countering one bit of bodypart work with the opposite equivalent, and so on. There's no sixty minute match I've ever seen which tells so involved a story as Hennig vs Bockwinkel. I've never been satisfied with the idea that wrestling isn't a good medium for storytelling, because I've seen it. That match shows that it's possible, and not just over ten minutes but over sixty, and that it can be the most compelling thing in the world. He created stories that mattered to people, that resonated, that moved them, and he made it seem so flawless and so natural. There was so much variation, too. I can barely wrap my head around how he managed it. And of course the fundamentals were there. He bumps around the ring like a pinball for Verne Gagne. His long-term limb selling is exceptional, and he had a way of selling fatigue from a long match in the finishing stretch like almost no one else. I believe that selling is the key to creating meaning in wrestling and it's hard not to watch his performances and think that he'd been through a war and that maybe, just maybe, he was going to lose that title (and if he did, the babyface would have EARNED it). His matwork was wonderful, holds and counters, perfect timing, great facial expressions and trash talk, and screaming in pain when he was on the wrong end of it. His strikes were snug. His offense was varied. He moved in and out of holds so well in the opening segment of a match; there was such flow to it. He cheated extremely well (and man was he a great southern tag heel), and as a babyface, he could both garner sympathy and swallow the heel alive with righteous fury. That's the thing. he's not just a smart worker. He's a total package. At age 45, he could still outFunk prime Funk, outFlair prime Flair and even, at times, outHansen prime Hansen. But, almost always, he only goes to that level when it makes sense to go there, when the value is there, when the needs of the match calls for it. I don't think it's a big spoiler. He's my #1. There are amazing wrestlers on my list in the #2-9 spots, some of the most talented, skilled, brilliant, sound, varied people imaginable, with hundreds of great matches to prove their worth. I just can't imagine any of them in that #1 slot instead of Bockwinkel. I stand by this still, and my list above could be expanded a little. I'm not sure exactly when some of the Houston matches (Slater, Morton, Santana) dropped or when someone stitched together the hour long match with Brunzell. We have gotten at least one new Hennig match which helps round out the feud and a few other things through WWE Network Hidden Gems. It's easier to access the IWE matches now. We now have a HH with a few extra minutes of the Funk in Japan match. Etc. Whenever a new Bock match drops, I always wonder if it's going to be the match that makes me finally see the holes. And they're never there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Kadaveri recently typo'd his name as "Nicboc Winkel" and if that was actually his name I feel like I'd have him at #1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 It's amazing to me how incredible I think Bock is and I'm realizing I have seen almost nothing of his work before he was in his 40s. Despite in the Flair thread saying my opinion of Flair has definitely risen in the past couple of years, and having seen a fraction of Bock footage compared to Flair, and none of that in his actual prime, I still think Bock did everything Flair did better besides maybe coked up promos. I just need more footage of him. Young Bock vs Thesz or Buddy Rogers (who I also have seen very, very little footage of but to my surprise dude was actually awesome and doing brutal piledrivers in the 50s while Lou was doing brutal powerbombs in the 50s) sounds like an absolute blast. Bock suffers from being around about 10 years too early and staying in the AWA, which has the least accessible footage and worst reputation as just boring old white guy territory. I imagine a world where he moved to Crockett in the early 80s and the first Starrcade was Flair vs Bock instead of Harley. Bock was still putting out excellent work deep into the 80s into his 50s. It's like...imagine if all the Flair footage people most people had seen was starting at his first WWF run. I am always up for watching more Bockwinkel footage, be it against Verne, a Hennig, a Hogan, a Jumbo, a Baba, a Martel, a Lawler, a Thesz, a Rogers. I need it all, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 I’m sure there is lots of Bock footage noted and linked in this thread already, but When I have time I’ll post lists of available video of his here. I’m a long time Bockwinkel (and AWA) enthusiast as a lot of you already know, and growing up with Bock as the centrepiece of my territory was awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, strobogo said: Bock suffers from being around about 10 years too early and staying in the AWA, which has the least accessible footage and worst reputation as just boring old white guy territory. Setting aside the “boring old white guy” stuff, is the AWA footage seriously considered the least accessible? If so I’d assume we are talking about pre-1980 material, which I would think was a common issue with a lot of territory footage being out there for our consumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 35 minutes ago, khawk20 said: Setting aside the “boring old white guy” stuff, is the AWA footage seriously considered the least accessible? If so I’d assume we are talking about pre-1980 material, which I would think was a common issue with a lot of territory footage being out there for our consumption. Least accessible in the sense that it was much, much, much easier to get all versions of JCP TV and big shows, basically all WWWF-WWF TV and big shows, all of World Class, the glut of All Japan and New Japan TV, whole years of Stampede TV even before WWE Network came around. And even then, their AWA output was very sparring and basically down to a handful of ESPN shows and a handful of major events from the 80s. Also always seemed like there was much less interest in the AWA than other major territories online. It's always seemed to me that AWA footage is stuff you'd have to actively dig around for more than other stuff and what you'd find was mostly from the dying period anyway. I'm 100% positive I've seen more AWA Championship matches in All Japan rings than AWA rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 There's definitely a significant amount of 1980-85 AWA out there. Have no idea how difficult it is to acquire these days, but there used to be a lot between youtube and dailymotion last I checked, not to mention alternative means if one is so inclined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 18, 2021 Report Share Posted April 18, 2021 I get it, thanks for the clarification. I've always collected AWA first and foremost, which I guess put me in a bubble with it...being an active seeker of footage, I didn't have any reason to believe it was harder to acquire than the other territories was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 Anyway just in All Japan Bock has classic after classic 12/5/78 Terry Funk-Dory Funk Jr. vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Blackjack Lanza Real World Tag League Highly Recommended 12/13/78 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Nick Bockwinkel Highly Recommended 2/10/79 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Verne Gagne AWA Heavyweight Chicago AWA event Highly Recommended 2/14/79 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA Heavyweight Bloody, Big Time Wrestling Hawaii event Highly Recommended 12/5/80 Billy Robinson-Les Thornton vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Jim Brunzell Real Wold Tag League Highly Recommended 12/9/80 Terry Funk-Dory Funk Jr. vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Jim Brunzell Real World Tag League Highly Recommended 12/11/80 Nick Bockwinkel vs. Billy Robinson Highly Recommended 2/4/82 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA World Heavyweight Highly Recommended 2/23/84 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA World Heavyweight Clipped, Special Guest Referee: Terry Funk Highly Recommended 3/24/84 Jumbo Tsuruta (c.) vs. Nick Bockwinkel AWA World Heavyweight Highly Recommended I'm up to mid 1986 in the AJPW Archive. I have 29 matches with Bock. 10 are highly recommended. 12 are recommended. The remaining 7 that I have as skippable are all clipped or joined in progress to various degrees. His hit to miss ratio is probably as high as anyone, probably higher than Jumbo/Terry due to there being a lot more and so there are a lot more misses by default. This isn't even his home promotion and the earliest match, he's already in his mid 40s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 A good bunch of full-length Bockwinkel matches from Houston surfaced when the NWA on Demand channel was running. Those are out there too. The Houston matches would be Bockwinkel vs. Ricky Morton, Tony Atlas, Tito Santana, Junkyard Dog (more than one), Dusty Rhodes, Bruiser Brody, Dick Slater, and Chavo Guerrero. There may be others I am forgetting and a couple of those have been out there previously, but not in the restored quality that the NWA on Demand channel had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 I gotta point out that I have Choshu/Bock on the rec list, and at this stage I fucking hate Choshu in anything that goes beyond 10 minutes, so that was a real holy shit Bock is untouchable moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanZero Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 I watched 5 matches of his today and he was already in my top 25 last time. I kind of want to rank him number 1 whenever I watch him and forget about the others, but I bet he'll be a top 10 contender for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinchStalker Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 4 hours ago, strobogo said: Anyway just in All Japan Bock has classic after classic 12/5/78 Terry Funk-Dory Funk Jr. vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Blackjack Lanza Real World Tag League Highly Recommended 12/13/78 Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Nick Bockwinkel Highly Recommended 2/10/79 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Verne Gagne AWA Heavyweight Chicago AWA event Highly Recommended 2/14/79 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA Heavyweight Bloody, Big Time Wrestling Hawaii event Highly Recommended 12/5/80 Billy Robinson-Les Thornton vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Jim Brunzell Real Wold Tag League Highly Recommended 12/9/80 Terry Funk-Dory Funk Jr. vs. Nick Bockwinkel-Jim Brunzell Real World Tag League Highly Recommended 12/11/80 Nick Bockwinkel vs. Billy Robinson Highly Recommended 2/4/82 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA World Heavyweight Highly Recommended 2/23/84 Nick Bockwinkel (c.) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta AWA World Heavyweight Clipped, Special Guest Referee: Terry Funk Highly Recommended 3/24/84 Jumbo Tsuruta (c.) vs. Nick Bockwinkel AWA World Heavyweight Highly Recommended I'm up to mid 1986 in the AJPW Archive. I have 29 matches with Bock. 10 are highly recommended. 12 are recommended. The remaining 7 that I have as skippable are all clipped or joined in progress to various degrees. His hit to miss ratio is probably as high as anyone, probably higher than Jumbo/Terry due to there being a lot more and so there are a lot more misses by default. This isn't even his home promotion and the earliest match, he's already in his mid 40s. Have you seen the 1980 Jumbo/Bock AWA match? It's more heavily clipped than the others (from 20:05 to around 14:45), but it's at the very least novel in that it's the only one we have between them on Bock's home turf, and which has Heenan as a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conker8 Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 @strobogodid you watch the Terry vs Bock from July 1983 ? It's not on your recommended list and it's an outstanding match IMO. Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 We just got a new handheld of that which gives us a few extra minutes in the front, some later minutes cut out, better crowd noise and a different camera angle so you get to pick up on different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 19, 2021 Report Share Posted April 19, 2021 6 hours ago, KinchStalker said: Have you seen the 1980 Jumbo/Bock AWA match? It's more heavily clipped than the others (from 20:05 to around 14:45), but it's at the very least novel in that it's the only one we have between them on Bock's home turf, and which has Heenan as a factor. It does not appear that's in the AJ Archive so I don't think so. 47 minutes ago, conker8 said: @strobogodid you watch the Terry vs Bock from July 1983 ? It's not on your recommended list and it's an outstanding match IMO. Reveal hidden contents Yes, it's on the rec list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 20, 2021 Report Share Posted April 20, 2021 On 5/11/2016 at 6:34 PM, Matt D said: Ok, so on second thought, I found time. There are about two minutes cut out but anyone who's seen a decent amount of Bock knows what it probably was (Brunzell ending the Bock control/KOTM segment with a revenge leg posting from the outside, a minute of legwork, into the figure four that we come back to). I really liked it. There was a point around the 48 minute mark where I thought maybe they should go home, but they transitioned into some backwork a couple of minutes later and Bock being vulnerable made it work towards the finish. It's hard to talk about a 60 minute match in a few sentences and I don't have the time to break the whole thing down. This is probably Brunzell's career match that we have on tape. He's got the Jumbo match and some really great High Flyers matches but he definitely held his own here. The selling was great from start to finish, both the dueling arm/leg limb selling, including in really logical ways while on offense. I think there are discernible chapter breaks that build off of what came before instead of forgetting or ignoring it, with callbacks and selling between chapters (though not where it would no longer make sense or matter, but far more than you'd get from a lot of similar matches, especially from Bockwinkel). The late match selling over the last twenty minutes or so, the exhaustion and desperation is really great. I'm not sure anyone is better at selling of cumulative damage than Bockwinkel and while we see that in 30-40 minute matches,we rarely get to really see it in 60 minute matches and he's the best at it. Very curious what other people think even though I know some people have seen at least part of this before. There's the match in question, btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted April 28, 2021 Report Share Posted April 28, 2021 One of the few #1 contenders I have right now. He's perfect at everything. I don't think most of the 80s US wrestlers that made the list will stay there in 2026, but I hope Bock survives and even makes his way to the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted May 1, 2021 Report Share Posted May 1, 2021 I voted Nick Bockwinkel #10 in 2016. Nailed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 1, 2021 Report Share Posted May 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, elliott said: Nailed it. But did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted May 1, 2021 Report Share Posted May 1, 2021 Hahahaha. I shouldve flip flopped him and Flair. But the next 8 people are better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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