Curt Hennig

[Matt D]

dotdotkins posted this match this week. I get why it didn't make the AWA set (too JIP) but is it ever a great babyface Hennig performance.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

In Hennig's case I disagree with the narrative that people here have pushed that he was better as a babyface. To me, it seems like he didn't find his feet as a worker in AWA until 1986-7, and he was more accomploshed as a performer by the time he reached the WWF.

 

He has poor offense in WWF, but is very good at several other aspects of the performance, which are lacking in his younger days.

 

I've still not seen the Portland stuff and will likely spend a night watching Buddy matches before deadline.

[Dylan Waco]

We are miles apart on this one JVK.

 

I am not as devoted to the idea of Hennig being better as a babyface as Will is, but I think he was excellent in that role throughout his run in Portland and his run in the AWA. I will grant that the AWA presentation doesn't really do anyone favors in terms of projecting their underdog fire, but Hennig was aces at that in my mind.

 

He's a dynamic character in the WWF that was certainly more polished than anything we got before, but in the ring I can't think of a single thing he did better in Vince-land.

[JerryvonKramer]

It boils down to you liking the puppy dog "Son of Larry" Hennig run a lot more than I did.

 

Note I'm not saying he had better matches in WWF, but he did have a lot more star presence. He also probably did the "shot from a cannon" bump better in WWF, which could be a plus or minus depending on your perspective.

 

I still think Curt won't make my list.

[Jimmy Redman]

You know I kind of see Hennig in a similar boat to Ted.

 

- Awesome character and skits in WWF, did his job as a bumping heel but maybe not so much with the matches.

- Had better matches pre-WWF when they were a featured performer in their territory.

- Better known as a heel but surprisingly good babyface.

- Got injured in the early 90s and that was basically that.

 

The more I think about it the more I like the comparison. I see Ted/Duggan and Hennig/Bock about the same level as series of matches. Hennig/Rose to Ted/Magnum. I like the Bret/Perfect matches so maybe they're equivalent to the Ted/Savage matches. Hennig/Stan as a cool one-off match vs Ted/Patterson. In terms of output there are a lot of similarities. Wonder what you'd make of that Parv.

 

I have them on about the same level which means I'm considering them, but not sold one way or the other yet.

[JerryvonKramer]

Simply put, Ted just had a way better career than Hennig.

 

1. He had two legendary feuds in Georgia, one with the Freebirds, one with Mr. R (Brad Armstrong under a hood). The matches would be in the "memorable" category and the angle where he takes multiple piledrivers from Gordy is in the "all-time" category in term's of Ted's performance during the whole deal.

2. Before the Duggan deal, he had a legendary feud with JYD in Mid-South. The matches DiBiase had with JYD are textbook on working around the limitations of a very limited worker.

3. He had several high-profile runs in All Japan as Stan Hansen's partner and was part of over a dozen VERY solid matches in that setting. And by "very solid" I mean in the ***1/2-**** range.

4. There is the angle with Flair (another all-time great selling job by Ted) and the subsquent feud with Murdoch.

5. There is the Million Dollar Man character itself, which, again to put it bluntly, was just much more important than the Mr. Perfect character in terms of establishing new guys and putting over talent.

6. As per 5. there is the stuff with Dustin Rhodes which helped get him over as an up and comer.

7. As per 5 and 6, there is the feud with Virgil, which established him as one of the hottest babyfaces of 1991.

8. The Money Inc. team has some very underrated stuff, especially with the Steiner Brothers in 1993.

 

And this is without really getting into the hard numbers of *total no of good-great matches in Mid-South vs. total no of good-great matches in AWA*

 

The whole thing just adds up to a much better career than Hennig's inside the ring and out of it. You can't expect DiBiase to have a ****+ match with fucking Virgil or Dusty Rhodes, but look at his role in those matches and feuds and see how effective he was in getting over his opponents. Who did Mr. Perfect put over really? Who did he make? Bret? Maybe, but Bret would have been a star no matter what. DiBiase made a lot of stars during his career in MSW and WWF.

 

This is why the BIGLAV rating has SIX categories and not only one or two. I take the whole career and what was achieved in that career (in terms of in-ring performances) into perspective.

 

In the Ted vs. Curt case, it translates into Ted having better "intangibles", greater longevity, a wider variety of opponents, and the ability to fulfill a wider spectrum of roles and get over in more markets with different audiences.

 

This is also why Ted is a smidge higher than Windham in my ratings because, again, I just think Ted had a better career than Windham.

 

It's also why I think the idea of people rating Rick Rude over Ted is basically absurd because Ted's career demolishes Rude's except for his phenomenal 1992.

 

However, I no longer care AT ALL what other people think (and frankly cannot WAIT for this whole thing to be over), and you, of course, are free to make up your own mind about these things, and about what is and is not important to you when judging GWE. For me, the career matters. Arn Anderson had a longer and better career than Tully Blanchard, which is why Arn will rank above Tully on my list. Tully had more great matches and was arguably a more complete wrestler, but those aren't the only metrics.

[ohtani's jacket]

Can't say I've heard of the Mr. R feud or even the JYD one, so can't speak for them being legendary, but Ted had a high profile run in All Japan? Ted was instrumental in getting Dustin over? Virgil was one of the hottest babyface acts of '91?

[BigBadMick]

Come on OJ. You can question the others but you've never heard of dibiase-JYD?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'll leave it to others to answer all of the above,

[ohtani's jacket]

Come on OJ. You can question the others but you've never heard of dibiase-JYD?

I haven't heard of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't legendary by any stretch of the imagination. The other three are reaches. I love the Virgil/DiBiase SummerSlam match more than anybody I've ever met, but Virgil wasn't hot by '91 standards.

[JerryvonKramer]

I am not arguing any of these points beyond what I've stated.

 

However, as a fun little tidbit for this thread, it is sometimes forgotten that Ted was instrumental in Mr. Perfect winning the IC belt.

 

 

Everybody's got a price!

[Matt D]

We have none of the Tornado/Dibiase matches on tape.

[JerryvonKramer]

I have a comp from years ago on Video Disc format (lol) which has two Ted vs. Kerry matches: 2/18/91 from Florida and 3/15/91 from MSG. Believe the latter one is on Dailymotion.

 

On that same comp I recall a really funny bit with Ted and Heenan on Prime Time involving him paying a guy to kiss Heenan's feet and a kid to put an egg under his chin. They actually break the egg on the kid's neck, I laughed like hell when I saw that. Ha ha.

 

In fact, that was so good I might see if I can find the footage and upload it.

[BigBadMick]

We have none of the Tornado/Dibiase matches on tape.

uk rampage 91.

[Matt D]

That's weird. I thought we didn't have them for some reason.

 

I'm probably thinking Tito vs Dibiase, where we only have the Sherri cam match.

[Dylan Waco]

Absolutely agree with Parv that Ted had a better career than Hennig. Would vote for Ted over Curt for something like a WON HoF every time.

 

Do not think he was better in the ring.

 

Head to head in the WWF I'd probably take Ted actually, as while I don't his best stuff was as impressive in terms of overall quality, I think he did do a good job getting the most out of a young Dustin and Virgil, whereas Hennig had the advantage of working Bret (though there were some random Hennig tv matches I loved...). Plus I think Ted was less likely to have a shit and/or flat match in the WWF than Curt and he was more well rounded in terms of skill.

 

That said, I think it's fairly close there, and I prefer Curt everywhere else to Ted everywhere else. Part of that is that I'm generally not as high on Mid-South stuff as many (terrible I know), and also that I just haven't watched as much Mid-South as I have AWA or Portland. On the other hand I do genuinely prefer Curt as a babyface to Ted and I like Ted in that role a fair amount. I don't really prefer him as a heel necessarily, but he has far more matches that I think are outstanding performances. Even stuff like the Saito match, or the 6 man tag from Battle at the Bay which NEVER get talked up are Curt matches that I think are excellent and for totally different reasons.

 

I could absolutely see rating Ted over Curt depending on what style you like, promotions you are into, et. But Ted has always felt very samey to me in a way that Hennig hasn't. Ted will not be on my ballot at this point. Hennig will do reasonably well.

[WingedEagle]

I'm sure it happens to everyone. You hear about certain classics forever that for one reason or another you've never happened to watch. Maybe you're going through All Japan chronologically and are in the early 90s. Maybe you never delved into 80s New Japan and with it not really available online, are waiting to pick up the set before you see the Gauntlet. It could be anything. The point is you hear about such a match ad nauseum, see it hyped prolifically here and elsewhere and by the time you sit down to watch it you're expecting the greatest thing ever, and maybe it falls short of expectations. Or not.

 

For me, one such was match the Bockinwinkel vs. Hennig 11/86 60 minute draw. I knew it finished #1 in the AWA 80s rankings and consensus seemed to be that it was a 5 star classic. For me, that almost always leads to a letdown of some sort as you build it up to unrealistic expectations. That was not the case here. This was an incredible, engaging, never check the clock classic and would easily make a short or long list of the best matches I'd ever seen.

 

I'm not going to waste anyone's time with a review of the match because Superstar Sleeze has already done and I'm sure others have noted it elsewhere, but what really struck me here is that this was really the Henning show. Bock undoubtedly held his own keeping things moving, working on Hennig's leg and played a great world champion, I think its Henning's performance that transformed this from a great match to an all timer. Much of the early half of the match saw Hennig work on Bock's arm and Bock on Hennig's leg. While Bock initially put this over after early transitions, he essentially dropped it during the back half of the match. Whether he forgot, didn't care or didn't think it fit into his work down the stretch doesn't matter, but he basically disregarded it. Meanwhile you had Hennig limping around ringside as he posting Bock. Just incredible dedication to the groundwork that had been laid and never losing sight of what they were doing over 60 minutes. You add in the gritty intensity down the stretch, the blood and the facials during the closing figure-four and this was one of the best performances I'd ever seen.

 

Its insanity, but this was so out of this world that I want to rank Hennig almost solely on the basis of this match alone. Loved the Hart match in '91, the '93 encounter a whole lot less, but otherwise basically nothing from his WWF run has been impressive other than the character, promos and skits. I just almost don't care right now.

 

What are his other standout babyface performances? What matches do I have to check out in Portland? Would love to build a case for him but not sure how I rest it almost squarely on a couple matches and a plethora of blah.

 

Second major point. He was Mr. Perfect. I also thought he was Curt Henning. I have no idea why, but despite watching him regularly on TV since the WWF run, I somehow dropped a third n into his name. Disgraceful on my part.

[Jingus]

On the Curt-vs-Ted dichotomy: don't forget that Dibiase's success was helped in great part because of the booking. He was the evil mastermind who successfully planned the end of Hulkamania's original championship reign. Mr. Perfect never got anywhere near that much of a push, he didn't even get a Rick Rude-style cup of coffee in the main event scene.

 

In the in-ring section, I think Hennig's case is hurt by his lackluster post-injury years. Both Curt and Ted basically had their careers ended in 1993, but Dibiase never got in the ring again while Hennig kept trying to have an on-and-off career for the next decade, and aside from the Flair feud and the West Texas Rednecks he was barely ever watchable, let alone good. He never really figured out how to adapt his style into something equally workable, so he spent the rest of his career trying to put on Mr. Perfect matches but doing so at half-speed at best.

[JerryvonKramer]

I just want to say that Ted in Mid-South practically murders Hennig in AWA and that is the bed rock of both of their cases, despite the fact that they are more famous for playing larger than life characters in WWF. I say that also while being reasonably high on Hennig in AWA, especially when he gets the title. But for me there is a clear gap between those two as GWE candidates. I have both on my list, but Ted is a good bit higher.

[BigBadMick]

Jvk, what about the Windham comparison?

[Matt D]

I have Ted over Curt. Put very quickly, Curt's highs are very high but his lows are lower than Dibiase's in my mind.

[InYourCase]

Goofy seller at times, yes, but I've come to really enjoy Hennig as I've watched more of him both as Mr. Perfect and in the AWA, which admittedly hasn't been a lot but enough to make me feel comfortable voting for him. He seemed to play his role really well. Even if he wasn't outstanding in certain matches, he did what he was set out to do and I really like that about him. Loved him in the 1991 Summerslam match with Bret. I thought he was much more engaging than Bret.

 

He's someone that I enjoy much more than Bret, but I can see that in terms of "greatest", Bret was greater. Hennig will still be on my ballot, though.

[elliott]

I ranked Curt Hennig 78th in 2016 and I blew it with that one. He might make a top 178th for me, but I'm not sure. I ranked him that high on the strength of his Portland and AWA work and I like that stuff but 78th is crazy. He's a dynamic athletic babyface but his best rivals are Nick Bockwinkel & Buddy Rose. Two of the 4 best US based workers of the decade. My favorite thing Hennig has been a part of is the Rose/Hennig/Billy Jack Hayes vs Dynamite Kid/Assassin/Rip Oliver feud from June-December 1983. I'd put Hennig behind Rose, Dynamite, Assassin & Rip Oliver in that feud. If you're the 5th best guy in your career best feud and 3 of those guys are Dynamite Kid, Rip Oliver & Fidel Sierra,I can't put you on a top 100. He's terrific as a young athletic up and comer, but the Mr Perfect run doesn't do it for me. Everyone knows the BOckwinkel feud and that's great. I would strongly encourage the Hennig/Buddy Rose/Billy Jack vs Dynamite/Assassin/Rip Oliver stuff because it is the lost great US feud of the 80s. 

[Childs]

I also ranked Henning in 2016, and I think I made the mistake of crediting him for what he could have been more than what he was. I loved him as a young babyface in Portland and as a budding top guy in AWA, but when you try to identify his peak, there's not a lot of meat on the bone compared to so many of the other wrestlers we're talking about. 

[KB8]

Yeah, I had Hennig at 82 the first time around, but I'm not sure he'll make the cut next time, and I've rewatched a lot of the Bockwinkel feud since then (which is still great, in fairness). I checked to see where I had him in relation to DiBiase as that was one of the major comps earlier in the thread, and I had DiBiase 9 spots higher, but he likely falls off this time as well.

Then again I haven't seen much of Hennig's Portland run so we'll see if that pushes him back into contention.