The Man in Blak Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 As an aside, I really have no time for Christgau. Why? This was his review of Liquid Swords Liquid Swords [Geffen, 1995] gangsta as mystery, religious and literary ("Shadowboxin'," "Killah Hills 10304") ** Great insight Rob. If there's any capacity for self-awareness in you at all, you should probably keep this sort of comment in mind before you casually dismiss an entire tradition of wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 It is precisely because I am self-aware that I will not be ranking any lucha or shoot guys. I am to them what our friend Christague is to rap, a philistine who will never get it no matter how many albums he listens to. So, yes, self-awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'm sure you could get into both, but probably not while the pressure of GWE is hanging over your head. My watching habits will be different after April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Perhaps, but the point is there's virtually nothing casual about the dismissal. I mean we even broke down Azteca vs Dandy minute by minute so I could explain everything that I don't like about the match. Hardly casual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 At work. Will write about Windham and Ted later, but would note that my reasons for not voting for Ted aren't that different than Parv's reasons for not voting shoot style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 It is precisely because I am self-aware that I will not be ranking any lucha or shoot guys. I am to them what our friend Christague is to rap, a philistine who will never get it no matter how many albums he listens to. So, yes, self-awareness. Christgau has liked plenty of rap albums including the first Wu Tang record. He's made an honest effort to engage with rap for 30-plus years. I often disagree with him and he's curtly dismissed plenty of albums I love, but I wouldn't call the man a philistine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I've liked plenty of Lucha matches too. I'm still a Lucha philistine. Christague is a lot better on other stuff. I've got his big reference book somewhere. I have a lot of books like that on music and film. Over the years, I've found Christague is generally unhelpful. His longer essays are good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Incidentally, this one strikes me as pertinent to recent discussions: http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/rock/critics-76.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I hate even saying this here since it has nothing to do with DiBiase, but I'm not sure where else to say it. On the subject of shoot style, I think too much emphasis is placed on it being a "style". Is it really *that* different than something like Antonio Inoki vs Billy Robinson from 1975? I feel like if it wasn't wrestled in rounds and pinfalls were counted, it wouldn't be seen as its own thing so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 It's considered a style because it was a breakaway movement (although it should be noted that when they first broke away the plan was to be New Japan Mach 2.) You won't find it all that dissimilar to earlier influences like Inoki and Robinson (particularly since Robinson was from the same background as Gotch), but I don't think Billy or Inoki shared the same philosophy or goals as the shoot boys. Windham has a lot of awesome stuff in the 90s that surely bolsters his case. Who cares if it was on TV? TV was a massive part of WCW's output. And who are all these people bringing their A game on late 80s-early 90s PPVs? That didn't happen. The "Best of Ted Dibiase in Mid South" on the DVDVR sets vs. WCW PPV matches argument is not the level of scrutiny demanded in the Blackwell/Andre threads. Jimmy, the DiBiase/Magnum matches are cool. I don't think they'll shoot Ted up your list or anything like that, but they're great stuff. I wonder what the musical equivalent of Ted is -- maybe the John Cougar Mellencamp to Terry Funk's Springsteen or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ha ha ha Mellancamp is so harsh as a comparison! At least give him someone like, I dunno, CCR or Allman Brothers Band seem fairer to me. In such a comparison, Terry Funk would be the Rolling Stones. That reminds me, let me see about getting the Magnum matches online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 It just struck me that the Phil Ochs to Funk's Dylan might be a better comparison. Here's one of the Magnum matches: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I had considered Donovan also. But I'm such a Dylan mark that I don't consider Ochs or Donavan even to be on the same planet. Hence Stones, CCR etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 CCR was as good as anybody for two years and that was it. That's not Dibiase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 What happened to Barry Windham? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Phil Ochs is better than Dylan and I was named after Dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Polite request to end music discussion at this point. Jimmy, Ted-Magnum should be online soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Polite request to end music discussion at this point. Jimmy, Ted-Magnum should be online soon. You are right, but perhaps you should temper the tendency to make analogies that go beyond wrestling. I understand it can be effective in making a point but I think it's easy for everyone to slip out of wrestling talk entirely when that happens. At the very least let's all try to be careful to keep wrestling at the center of our posts and not on the periphery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 ^ Jimmy, that's the Tulsa match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 What on earth is Vince wearing here? Also, I am sure the guy kissing Heenan's feet is someone in the business. Does anyone recognise him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 ^ Jimmy, that's the Tulsa match Are you sure? Looks like the OKC match to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTLL Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 It is. The Tulsa match has orange mats. Here you go: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Ahh ok. The same match is on YT labelled as the OKC match, that's why I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Whoops, my mixup. Even mention the orange mats in my review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I think I also reject the terms of the slightly snooty analogy. It's less insisting that Mario's down the street has the best pizza in the world, and much more in line with sticking to the idea that the greatest bands are The Bealtes, Led Zeppelin and the Stones as opposed to some post-rock indie metal band no one has ever heard of. In this analogy, fans of certain niches -- let us say shootstyle -- are much more akin to the fans who swear that, I dunno, Yes's Close to the Edge and Can's Ege Bamyasi are the best albums of 1972 as opposed to Ziggy Stardust or Exile of Main Street which are "overrated". I say, after considering both, nah, prog sucks, it's still Ziggy, then Exile. Or maybe there's someone who says it's Miles Davis's On the Corner. And I say, after struggling for a month to get into discordant trumpets and whatnot, nah, fuck that jazz sucks too. It's still Ziggy. Much closer to what it is, I think. Call that myopic, but I don't think it's fair to say that the sampling range is narrow. Ziggy is a no-brainer, it doesn't stop being one just because jazz or prog exist. I love you Parv, I really do, but I want to fucking burn this post and I'd risk taking down the whole forum with it. As you were . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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