Dory Funk Jr.

[shoe]

Dory's absence of charisma is so distracting to me in his matches that it really hurts him for me. There's very few times where he shows any urgency, any character, or any body language that shows that he remotely cares. He just sort of does things without any extra personality to what he does. And yes, I've seen the Sheik-Abby matches. Dory tried to show some personality but it didn't feel organic to me. It just felt like Dory trying to act mad. It wasn't really believable. I won't say Dory is bad on offense, because I've seen him work stiff, execute really well, and do okay on the mat. It's the question of why the fuck should I care about a robot?

 

EDIT: I should also say that I haven't seen some of the stuff Parv is referencing so I should be fair to Dory and check that stuff out. Still, the Dory I've seen, which is mostly All-Japan, is pretty boring to me.

I'm watching the Brisco/Dory draw from Japan which runs the gaunlet of opinions and the difference between the 2 in terms of selling, and registering pain is like night and day.Jack smoked him in these areas. With Dory if he won't register anything that is happening to him, why should we the fan care about him. I know it's one match but Dory has a history of this. This is why Dory looks better in not as great quality footage like the Lawler match, and the draw with Jack from Florida where his probable lack of expression don't hurt the match.

[Childs]

Which is interesting, because in Brisco's obit, Dave portrayed Dory as the master of small touches and Jack more as the superathlete.

[shoe]

Which is interesting, because in Brisco's obit, Dave portrayed Dory as the master of small touches and Jack more as the superathlete.

Not from my seat.

[Childs]

Nor mine.

[JerryvonKramer]

Pete, are you suggesting that Dory is actively helped by poor VQ?

[shoe]

Not in the grand scheme of things. Though if all the footage wasn't crystal clear his poor facial expressions would be covered up. It was a throwaway line. In quality footage his lack of expressions stand out more.

[JerryvonKramer]

The "little things" Meltzer would have been talking about probably weren't facial, but things like the way Dory would use his body weight to work a hold. He's one of the better headlock workers you'll see because of how positions himself. He sometimes does intricate matwork that targets more specific areas than you typically see: like taking time out to snap back on a guy's fingers while he's working an arm, or twist specifically on a joint like the wrist or the ankle. His counters are very neat, and he is good at coming up with innovative ways to escape or reverse a hold. This has got to be the sort of thing that Meltzer is talking about, not how much he registers pain on his face.

 

Brisco is definitely a much more "complete" worker than Dory, and he's much better at selling, emoting, showing fire and bumping -- but what Dory excels at is the pure technical ability, wrestler-as-chess master.

 

Dory's gameplan is almost always to stay calm and make the other guy lose his temper and therefore give up control. It's why the few times he does lose his temper (e.g. vs. Sheik, vs. Brody, vs. Lawler, vs. Keirn in Florida) are quite special because he's a guy who 99% of the time gives his opponent nothing. He's the true "Ice Man" and probably the worker that Dean Malenko wanted to be.

 

I do think that Dory's lack of facials and emotion in general is held against him disproportionately vs. the things he actually did well in a match. No one holds total lack of facials against a masked wrestler, for example. Dory's character was explicitly someone who didn't want to show emotion, so it makes sense that he didn't. It also makes the fire and ice dynamic when he's tagging with Terry work.

 

I can't believe that it's me -- me who values character work so much, of all people -- who is having to defend Dory. But the criticism has gone much too far. If Dory really was that boring, I wouldn't have been able to sit through all the hours of matches of his that I have already. He's not like a Jack Brisco who will hit you between the eyes and knock you out with his awesomeness, his charms are more subtle than that.

 

I'm about half way through Dory and a third of the way through Brisco right now, and about a third of the way through Race. If I had to rank them as things stand it would be:

 

1. Brisco - top 20 region

2. Dory - top 40-50 region

3. Race - top 60-70 region

 

Dory has been in a greater variety of more interesting and compelling matches than Race. He had better matches in Japan than Race. He mixed up his work from match to match better than Race did. I can't just ignore all that because the expression on his face doesn't change that match.

 

The best comparison point I can give you is Tenryu. When did that fucker ever change his expression? The difference is that Tenryu always looked vaguely unimpressed and slightly pissed off -- that's just the guy's face. Dory always looks a bit distant and possibly even bored -- that's just the guy's face. How much can the way a man's face looks affect where you rate him?

 

I just think it seems awfully superficial, especially for this board.

[shoe]

Parv I never said he was boring. I said his expressions are non existent. I liked the work in the draw. What took it down for me was that he didn't emote pain. When you go an hour you are working holds your opponent needs to sell them. If HBK did this in his run he'd be accused of being unprofessional.

 

Also if you're arguing against the board. It can't argue back because it doesn't have an opinion. Now people who post on this board might say he's boring . It's not fair to say it's a PWO thing. Pete F likes him their are others who post here that do too. So It's not fair to lump everyone together on the board .

[JerryvonKramer]

HBK's character wasn't "wrestling chess master" though. And Dory does sell holds, he just doesn't do it through facials, he tends to do it through his body. Like when he's getting his arm worked he'll typically slap over on his own arm to register the pain. He'll hit the mat with his leg or hand to show that this isn't where he wants to be.

 

I do think he could show more vulnerability at times -- not quite at Backlund levels, but I do think they are comparable. If you read my longer reviews, you'll see this is a recurrent talking point. But it wouldn't be true to say that Dory no sells. He's just not the sort of worker who is going to scream out in pain or show agony in his face. But he does register the pain in other ways.

[shoe]

In the draw he did shit can the damage to the leg after the figure 4.He sells it at 1st then drops it to transition to a high spot. I'm looking forward to see if I see what you see in him. I've seen plenty of Dory but will do a revisit.

 

I think your mask argument is off. If you look at the Destroyer, or Misterio they have no problem getting their expressions over.

 

On the Dory likes to put his weight on opponents this was very evident in the draw. It's also a trick that wrestlers used to blow up their opponent. I'm not saying Dory was doing this, but Flair did mention it on his recent interview with Austin.

[Childs]

Dave's exact comment was Dory "was probably the better ring psychologist and superior at playing subtle heel, which was the most important role for a world champion of that era."

 

There's a lot of room for interpretation with the phrasing "better ring psychologist." But better to look at Dave's exact words than my recollection of them. It's certainly possible Dory worked with more of a heel dimension if you compare their respective title reigns. I honestly haven't seen enough to weigh in on that. I just thought it was interesting because in the footage I've viewed, Brisco was both a better athlete and a more expressive worker than Dory. That doesn't mean Dory sucked; Brisco was just a tremendous, ahead-of-his-time wrestler.

[Matt D]

Brisco was just a tremendous, ahead-of-his-time wrestler.

 

This makes me think of Race, but (and I haven't done the legwork enough, but from what I've seen) is it that the forward-looking elements were different between Brisco and Race, and Brisco actually kept the elements of the 70s style that some of us miss and appreciate while adding another element and Race jettisoned those for HIS element that he introduced?

 

I don't know. Does that even make sense?

[Childs]

I think I know what you mean. Brisco was definitely better than Harley at intense grappling. When I say ahead of his time, I mean you could've sent Brisco forward 20 years in a time machine, and he'd have stepped into most '90s feds without much adjustment. His spring, his quickness, the snap in his execution were all remarkable. Billy Robinson is the other '70s star who always hits me the same way, and I know I'm not the only one to make that association.

 

Harley, by contrast, has always struck me as a proto-Flair, though he crammed in more high-end offense, relative to the late '70s, than Ric did relative to the mid-'80s. In terms of the bumping, the signature spots, the way they worked as touring champs--very similar. I enjoyed their '84 All Japan match because it played on how much Harley and Ric were two sides of the same coin.

 

I need to revisit Harley though, because I'm mostly talking about years-old impressions. I imagine he was perfectly fine at working holds, just as Flair was, even if neither could stack up to Brisco in that realm.

[shoe]

I moved all the talk of the touring NWA champ to a new thread in the pro wrestling forum. This thread is for Dory.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bumper crop in tonight's batch with three matches breaching the B+ line:

 

 

Dory Funk Jr. vs Jumbo Tsuruta (12/18/75)

 

Great sprint worked with intensity and heat. Good shorter showcase for both workers. Rating: **** / B+

 

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (03/13/75)

 

Masterpiece. The first fall alone is a work of art, but the violence keeps escalating up the gears through the second before a hot finish. MVP performance from the young Jumbo, but everyone on great form here. Rating: ****3/4 / A

 

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (12/15/78)

 

While it starts off slow, this one builds and builds towards a great finishing stretch. Great "peril" performance from Terry here, and some unusual fire from Dory. Very good match, despite some boring stretches. Rating: ****1/2 / A-

[Jetlag]

I watched a bunch of 70s AJPW years ago and after being done with it I never wanted to see Dory again. I wouldn't say he's awful, at his best he's solid and rarely a detriment to any match as he usually plays the right notes, at his worst he's every bad cliche about "technical wrestlers" in one and grinds a match to a halt. Of course he works well teaming with Terry as the Anti-Terry, but it exposes his lack of selling, emoting and context. Terry will make you give a shit about throwaway opening hold exchanges, makes you believe he is trying to finish the match, basically everything he does establishes an arc to a match. With what Dory is doing, there's no way to tell whether you are 5 minutes or 35 minutes into a match and your only indicator to what is happening is his opponent's ability to tell you that.

 

I also think his technical ability isn't sufficient. He is compared to a chess master, but to me he seems to be solving his own conflicts when in a hold. He will wait in a hold for 20 seconds, then change position, wait another 20 seconds, etc. All that without any selling or emoting that would make you give a shit about the position change. I would say it's more like he was doing a mathematical proof, except without the inventiveness. In the end you are told something you already know, which isn't necessarily a problem as lots of 70s sequences are "basic", but Dory doesn't exhibit any high end technical chops doing so. Something like Destroyer vs. Mascaras or a Jack Briscoe match will give you neat uncooperative amateur stuff you don't see anymore. Dory doesn't really give you anything. Also, I think OJ once commented NWA style title matches were a bunch of filler leverage holds leading nowhere until a flick is switched and they move to the finish, and I think this problem is really evident in Dory matches.

 

Again, I think Dory is solid. Problem is it takes a little more than solid to stand out among all the really talented workers that were around then and I think there's a lot of workers you could've slotted into Dory's place in those Funk tags and they would've done just as good or better. With all the long epics Dory has on tape he has a huge advantage, but even with all that stuff he never once truely stands out the way random british technicians would do in single TV bouts.

[JerryvonKramer]

I do think Jetlag raises some very good points here. But one thing they do overlook is that Dory could work brawls and had a mean European Uppercut. A lot of my highest rated Dory matches aren't techinical masterpieces, but moments when "the ice melts" and he starts to fight.

 

I also think that the analysis of the way he changes position every twenty seconds almost like he's wrestling himself is interesting. I have seen it as Dory working preemptive counters: countering the counter before it happens, but I'll certainly look out for this when I wrap up on him. I also think the context thing of not knowing if you're five minutes in or thirty minutes in is really incisive and I'll look out for this too.

 

Dory's case to an extent has to lean on Great Match Theory. As in, he's in too many great matches to ignore. And I don't agree that anyone could have stepped into his spot in the Funk tags. Not only in terms of being the perfect anti-Terry, ice to his fire, but also in terms of what he brought to the table himself.

 

Again, this is better demonstrated in matches worked more as brawls or sprints than longer ones where he slows things down to work holds.

 

The thing that interests me most about the post above is that he's suggesting that Dory lacks one thing that you'd almost take for granted from him: psychology. It's an interesting point that I need to think about. My criticisms of his psychology have been that he often works too strong and isn't very giving to his opponent. So the narrative arch of most matches is similar "Dory has out thought and out wrestled his opponent". I think I watched something like 30 matches without seeing him eat a single pinfall. So similar to my criticisms of Backlund, I just think Dory is a better wrestler than Backlund and has better matches than him. But the idea that his mat work is aimless and doesn't really tell any story is something I've not seen -- and believe me I'd be down on that if I thought it was true. I still have some way to go, and this has given me stuff to look out for.

[Timbo Slice]

Dory's methodical pace does have its benefits, but I think where he loses points with me is that at a time where the longer matches were in vogue, there were a lot of his contemporaries working 30-60 minute matches that were a lot more compelling. Baba, Destroyer, Robinson, the list goes on. I don't think he's aged well, I think he's best in a tag environment as has previously been said, and he does have one of the greatest run-ins in wrestling history during that Hansen/Funk match when Hansen was trying to hang Terry with his bullrope and Dory makes the save looking like a middle-school principal. Won't be on my list, though.

[Dylan Waco]

Anyone got link to the 75 Hofffman match ?

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, try vk.com. You may need to sign up for an account but they have a shit load of 70s All Japan on there.

[NintendoLogic]

Dory/Hoffman is on Ditch's site.

[BillThompson]

Anyone got link to the 75 Hofffman match ?

 

I have the match, if you still need it.

[El-P]

Dory Funk Jr. vs. Terry Funk 4/30/81 (start at 9:23) (59:00)

-I guess when I do the Terry Funk comp, I'll have to include this match as a mattter of historical significance. However, damn is this boring to start off. You know they are going long but mix in a highspot here or there. There were some decent sequences and both guys were good on the mat but sequences that would have taken 5 minutes in a regular match were stretched to ten and fifteen minutes here. The first big move happens about 25 minutes in as Terry gets backdropped out of the ring. He injures his leg on the way out so Dory tries to put the spinning toe hold on and Terry has to find ways to block it. I have to compare this to the Jumbo-Kerry match where those guys went 35 minutes and it felt like ten minutes. This went almost an hour and felt like three. I can see someone nominating it but it won't be me.

 

Just watched this. As far as two brothers working a pure babyface struggle technical, rugged match, I thought it was actually excellent. The one thing I didn't like about Dory here was that he really didn't sold his arm after Terry worked on it for several minutes during the first third, but otherwise he was very good. I never thought it was boring. It was all about Dory the technical machine and older brother keeping his younger, more excentric brother down, and we're in 1980 working an old-school NWA style title match for 60 minutes, so of course it's gonna take its time. But everything looked like what it was supposed to, that is a struggle, they did a great use of their highspots culminating with some hot (for the time) sequences near the end, without having to resort to the expected cliché of Terry finally losing it. I loved the way Dory hold Terry to prevent him from falling through the rope head first to the floor, and took him back inside, and while he helped him, he maintained his grap right into an uppercut, which was quite neat. Dory on offense is perfectly fine.

[goodhelmet]

Different strokes.

[JerryvonKramer]

Considering how much Will liked Dick Mirdoch sitting in a head scissors for 15 minutes, my feeling is that he's playing favorites and isn't consistent with criticisms across matches. He told me on that show we did that high spots don't mean shit, but this one is criticised for having none of them after 25 mins.

 

I'd like to see his review of the Backlund vs Valentine match from 79 that goes an hour and consists of a single boring headlock for 35 minutes and we have Greg and Bob saying in shoots that Greg was blown up. But I think Will likes Greg so he'll find reasons to like it.

 

That said, I've not reviewed Dory vs. Terry yet.