Johnny Saint

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Jetlag]

Not the most beloved WoS worker at this stage, as he had annoying tendencies, but was undeniably in some of the best WoS matches and he could really go when outside of his comfort zone. Also, a pretty cool run as ancient maestro type worker on the indy scene with lots of good to great exhibitions.

[ohtani's jacket]

Now that I've kind of come around on Rocco, Saint stands as the most overrated British worker of all-time. How he ever got a rep of being better than his contemporaries like Grey, Breaks and Rocco is beyond me. He does have some outstanding matches, though, including just about the best WoS tag I've seen, but it's mixed with a lot of disappointing stuff. I don't just say this because he's a gateway guy and I want to be all Pitchfork about it. Watch Saint vs. lesser names and compare it with Grey against everybody.

[GSR]

There's a match versus Mike Jordan from the late 80s that I'm pretty high on, but I haven't cared at all for a lot of his comeback stuff from the past few years. There was a good six-man from Chikara with Quack & Skayde against Claudio & Taylor & Danielson, but most of his stuff looks even hokier now, not to mention being soooo slow. I mentioned in the Breaks thread that the Saint matches were the ones I wanted to actively search out to see how they work together.

 

Someone who I used to rate highly until having my eyes opened to a whole host of lesser known WOS workers.

[GSR]

Johnny Saint vs Vic Faulkner (aired 03.11.78)

One of the criticisms of the WOS bouts is that they can come across as an exhibition as opposed to a match. It's something that I'd never really noticed previously (maybe being English and watching some of this on a Saturday afternoon back in the day, I'd to an extent grown up with it), that was until watching this bout. This was pretty much two guys going from spot to spot and demonstrating a bunch of nifty escapes and reversals and showcasing what they could do, never did you get the feeling that one man was trying to beat the other. At the end of the first round you had seven pinfall reversals (and they would have continued had the bell not rang), whilst at another point Saint has an arm lever on Faulkner, and he forward rolls through on eleven consecutive occasions trying to free himself. It was all too excessive, and 'hey, look at what we can do!'. The finish was similar to the Grey/Cortez match from 1981, only this time Saint throws a dropkick (though Faulkner is already setting up trapping his leg) that barely lands, and Faulkner falls backwards out of the ring hanging upside down with his leg trapped. The seconds and a couple of folk out of the crowd come to help free him and get him back in the ring but he is unable to continue (the finish actually looked dreadful).

 

Despite the criticism, I did enjoy watching this. There is stuff that they do which you won't have seen before. Faulkner has a beautiful running side headlock take down and also a real nice looking head scissors takedown whilst holding Saint's arm, and I came out of this excited to see more of him as opposed to Saint. Just go into this with the idea that you're going to see some cool and funky stuff as opposed to a wrestling match.

[ohtani's jacket]

Saint and Faulkner had an excellent bout in the early 80s that made it on to my list of recommended matches. That '78 bout I remember being a disappointment by comparison. Saint often worked an exhibition type style and Faulkner was a guy who had his own bag of tricks. It's not a surprise that they'd just riff off each other. Faulkner was on TV a bunch, though. Third only to Breaks and McManus if I'm not mistaken. He's not one of my absolute favourites, but I've seen him in just about every match situation under the sun. In that respect these exhibition type showcase are a sign of versatility.

[ohtani's jacket]

Btw, Magnum I wanted to say how nice it is to see another guy watching and critiquing WoS. It's been fantastic so far.

[GSR]

Btw, Magnum I wanted to say how nice it is to see another guy watching and critiquing WoS. It's been fantastic so far.

 

Cheers. All the stuff I have was recorded off TWC and probably hadn't been watched in over five years, and similarly there are a bunch of discs that were never watched (I just used to pick and choose bouts when I fancied a bit of WOS). This GWE project has given me the impetus to watch and actually make my way through as much as I can, and I'm really enjoying it at the moment.

[JerryvonKramer]

I hate to disagree with OJ, when he's done so much to try to uncover some of the great WOS workers, but I don't get why he thinks Saint is so overrated.

 

Breaks is the clear #1, that's obvious, but based on everything I've seen, which is less than OJ for sure, I'd have Saint jockeying with Grey for #2.

 

I haven't been able to get into Jon Cortez as much, find him bland. Honestly I find the babyfaces all merging into one. It doesn't help that they all wear black trunks and have that same haircut. I mean if Alan Sarjeant and Jon Cortez were standing side by side, I'm not sure if I could tell you who is who. Johnny Saint has made more of an impression.

 

I'd like to see all three of Breaks, Grey and Saint make my list.

 

I'm not sure who else I could justify rating at this point.

[Childs]

You like showmanship more than intense grappling so none of that seems surprising. I've been watching a lot of Saint lately, trying to figure out what to do with him. He was a huge talent but goofed around an awful lot. Based on his top matches, he should be a no brainer. Still not sure where I fall on him.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't expect anyone to agree with me about Saint, and in fact I've enjoyed most of the Saint I've watched recently. I saw him watch a match the other day where he bumped and sold for a big man, which I thought was interesting. But as I said above, if you've only watched his catchweight matches against other great workers, or his rivalries with Breaks and Grey, then you haven't really seen what a standard Johnny Saint match looks like. I'm talking about the the kind of bout Saint liked to work when he was the guy in charge. A regular, four-round television bout with no size difference, no rivalry, no heat, no building to a future title match, nothing. The most average of Johnny Saint bouts against a guy you've probably never head of before. Those sort of bouts were really just showcase bouts for the stars and made up the majority of WoS programming. If you like Saint, you'll probably get a kick out of any time he turns up on tape, but to me the standard Saint match is utterly disappointing and worse than just about any other star I can remember. They remind me of a fill-in issue on your favourite comic book or a single issue story that's sandwiched between ongoing storylines. Honestly, Saint wrestling a guy who has no chance against him and making him look foolish, while all the while grinning and clowning around, is shit compared Grey making everyone he faced look they're having a career night.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think this calls for greater exploration on my part.

 

You are right that I've only really seen him against the best guys. Also, I kind of get a kick out of random WoS heels, so it should be fun.

[ohtani's jacket]

Most of his bouts are face vs. face.

[JerryvonKramer]

Now that I'm less excited about!

 

Also can you remind me is it Saint or is it Vic Faulkner who does the spot where he curls up into a ball?

[ohtani's jacket]

That's a Saint spot, though Grey did it as well and Faulkner may have on occasion, but I don't remember it being one of his regular spots. It's a spot they cribbed from the legendary lightweight champion George Kidd, whose style Saint imitated.

[Jimmy Redman]

George Kidd > Johnny Saint > Layla

 

The natural evolution of things.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can't find a microscope thread and I'm not making one.

 

Johnny Saint vs. Fit Finaly

 

Not sure of date, but Saint is older here and it's an All Star ring, so maybe 86 or 87? Finaly has a woman with him in an Indian headdress.

 

Couldn't find an OJ review of this anywhere. This is a bit more US-style, or rather Finlay is, punches, sunset flips, knee drops. These aren't the sorts of moves I'm used to seeing on WoS. Saint is still lightning quick despite being older. His rep as one of the world's best technicians probably comes from his ability to slip into a hammerlock in 0.23 of a second.

 

There was a very sharp face and heel dynamic in this match, which makes it a pretty accessible bout. The finish is pretty anti-climactic, and I didn't think this was a great match. Nothing to go out of your way to see, but perfectly serviceable TV match.

 

***

 

Johnny Saint vs. Mike "Flash" Gordon

 

LOL Mike Gordon looks like a snooker player. Specifically Willie Thorn.

 

 

This is in an All Star ring too and looks like it might be from a little before the last bout, Saint looks older. Thorne, I mean, Gordon is the champ. "Flash"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

 

Pretty forgettable little match. Saint seems like he was mainly just putting people over during this run, but ensures he gets his signature spots in.

 

**1/2

[Dylan Waco]

I choose to see Terry Rudge as the spiritual wrestling father of Regal and Finlay and Taylor. I enjoy Saint a lot of the time, but I think what OJ is getting at is that Saint is the spiritual wrestling father of Colt Cabana. Lots of aw shucks upstaging with schtick that's presented and treated like a cute play, rather than a grappler taking someone to school. At times I do enjoy that,but at other times it pisses me off, and he leans on it too much for my liking.

 

On the other hand I do see Saint as a unique talent for his place and time, who had lots of matches I really like. And I thought his revival run decades later was super fun for whatever that is worth. His flash and comedic touches do have a place, and I don't think they always obscure the fact that he is really fucking great.

 

I'll probably rate him at the end of the day, but there are at least six Brit scene guys I'll have above him. Maybe 7 or 8.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm gonna have to cram on Rudge I think. He hasn't locked up with any of the guys I've been watching, and maybe it's cos he was in a different weight bracket?

 

(Did enjoy him against Regal in 88, just remembered that one)

[The Man in Blak]

Saint's Michinoku Pro match in '96

and it's worth watching, I think. I don't know that it's necessarily a great match - the last round is a disaster that shows off all the overly "cutesy" tendencies mentioned in this thread, along with a badly blown spot as a cherry on top - but it's an interesting look at how effective he can be with a crowd outside of WoS (albeit in one match).

Saint's on the bubble for me, primarily as a gateway guy to the style. His playful, comedic escape artistry works, I think, because it emphasizes the aspects of the British tradition that feel the most antithetical to typical American in-ring style. With Saint, "restholds" become highspots; they become opportunities to show off flashy escapes that look great in the moment, but lose their luster as they become more familiar. In a weird way, those escapes enhance the presentation of those holds as truly dangerous predicaments by calling excess attention to them, but that illusion can only hold on for so long. Once you see the magician do the same trick twice, it's hard to stay curious.

[JRGoldman]

I think a person's enjoyment of Saint hinges on their enjoyment of the face vs. face dynamic. I understand being frustrated at Saint's constant "aw shucksing" as Dylan puts it, but I think Saint deserves credit for working consistently entertaining matches with a really odd dynamic that to me comes across as more believable than one person using random heel spots for the night. The presentation of WoS always struck me as heavily influenced by "real sports" and I buy Saint matches as him wrestling a friend, it getting competitive but still friendly, and them chatting and having a pint after, win or lose.

[El McKell]

I like how Johnny Saint matches tend to have those fast paced final rounds with rope running and counters and rollups. As long as he's not doing too much dumb comedy schtick the stuff early in the match is pretty good too, he does stuff that you really don't see from other people even in British world of zany counters to holds.

Still he's a long shot for me to be putting him on the list

What I watched so far for this and my match ratings
Johnny Saint vs Jim Breaks (14/03/73) ****
Johnny Saint vs Jim Breaks (05/05/73) ***½
Johnny Saint vs Steve Grey (28/01/80) ****¼
Johnny Saint vs Mike Jordan (13/01/87) ***½
Johnny Saint vs Robbie Brookside (28/04/87) ***¾
Johnny Saint vs Fit Finlay (05/01/88) ***¾
Mike Quackenbush vs Johnny Saint (08/03/08) ***½

[club]

Love the matches with Breaks, Grey and Finaly mentioned above. Saint really does turn it up when it comes to the big matches. I enjoy the contrast between these and some of the lesser matches that he appears to treat more as affable sparring. Like he's playing a friend at snooker, or 5-a-side. He's amazing when it comes to first time viewing but I'd agree that he gets a bit same-y over the long haul. As someone to watch once every few months though he's a lot of fun. Which seems reasonable given that's how often his matches were shown on TV back then. What that means for a project like this I do not know.

His Dec 72 tag with Steve Best vs Ian Gilmour & Jeff Kaye is up on YouTube now and is well worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT2liJ_iYkI

Got a kick out of their team being called The Elite.