Kazuchika Okada

[SegundaCuerda]

This is one of the wrestlers that gives me the hardest time deciding whether he'll have a place on my list or not.

In a list of greatest matches ever, probably there would be enough Okada matches to consider him great, against Tanahashi, Minoru Suzuki, Shibata, and he also has a lot of very good ones against Omega (I love their fight in G1), Bad Luck Fale, and some sprints with a lot of humor against Yano.

At the same time, it has a repetitive style that after all these years has also made me see several boring main events of half an hour or more, where nothing happens in the first half of the match, and the sequence of finishers seems to me the same that I've seen a thousand times.

It's incredible how about 4 years ago I would have had no doubts that Okada would be in my top 50 and now I don't know whether to include him because of the little interest I have in his matches nowadays.

[strobogo]

laughs in gedo

[Jmare007]

Is the Tenryu match and the MiSu match in the pouring rain add or go against Okada's case? What do y'all think?

I remember the Tenryu match being kind of sad seeing him in that state but Okada did try to make it as interesting as possible. The MiSu match I honestly don't remember shit besides the visuals of the rain lol, but I do recall a lot of people loving it.

[strobogo]

Tenryu going out almost paralyzing Okada sure was something

[smoldoink]

Has Okada ever done a single interesting thing within the first ten minutes of a non-tournament match?

This dude is a slog to watch until you get to the reversal dance finishing stretch of any of his big matches. He's a terrible matworker, his transitions are atrocious, his strikes are weak, and when you consider his "influence" on modern main event wrestling you'd almost be duty bound to put him on Bottom 100 list. 

His dropkick was pretty nice until he got old tho

[Righteous River]

13 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Is the Tenryu match and the MiSu match in the pouring rain add or go against Okada's case? What do y'all think?

I remember the Tenryu match being kind of sad seeing him in that state but Okada did try to make it as interesting as possible. The MiSu match I honestly don't remember shit besides the visuals of the rain lol, but I do recall a lot of people loving it.

I didn't think much of the rain match personally. It was the bog standard Okada/Suzuki match template with all their signature spots and sequences just with a really unique and cool atmosphere. Your mileage may vary on how much you enjoy that but I didn't really care for it.

[strobogo]

Shibata/Okada might be the match of the past decade, so that has to be a solid check in his resume

[Jmare007]

13 minutes ago, smoldoink said:

Has Okada ever done a single interesting thing within the first ten minutes of a non-tournament match?

This dude is a slog to watch until you get to the reversal dance finishing stretch of any of his big matches. He's a terrible matworker, his transitions are atrocious, his strikes are weak, and when you consider his "influence" on modern main event wrestling you'd almost be duty bound to put him on Bottom 100 list. 

His dropkick was pretty nice until he got old tho

I really liked the first half of his IWGP title match against ZSJ. Though a huge part of it was Sabre's work...me not liking the 2nd half as much was also mostly because of Sabre.

RE: tag matches. I think the only really good tags Okada had were when he was a young lion in the NOAH feud. I think he kinda deserves some praise because of that year too.

[Boss Rock]

The Tenryu match is one of the most impressive carry jobs in recent memory. Not sure I would call it a "good" match because Tenryu had no business doing anything in a wrestling ring, but they put together a match that worked and that has to be a feather in Okada's cap.

The Suzuki rain match wasn't their best together but still really good. It worked their typical formula and they did a great job adjusting to the slippery mat.

I also agree with Okada-Shibata being the best match of the 2010's. As amazing as Shibata was, there's no way he has that match with anyone else.

For Okada tag matches, these are all good ones:

w/Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Tetsuya Naito 12/23/2013
w/Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Katsuyori Shibata 11/7/2015
w/Tomohiro Ishii vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Katsuyori Shibata 12/19/2015
w/YOSHI-HASHI vs. Naomichi Marufuji and Toru Yano 8/10/2016
w/Gedo vs. Kota Ibushi and TAKA Michinoku 9/4/2017
w/Tomohiro Ishii vs. Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega 9/30/2018
w/Hiroshi Tanahashi, Hirooki Goto, and Kota Ibushi vs. Manabu Nakanishi, Satoshi Kojima, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, and Yuji Nagata 2/22/2020
w/Toru Yano and SHO vs. YOSHI-HASHI, Hirooki Goto, and Tomohiro Ishii 8/9/2020
w/Toru Yano and SHO vs. YOSHI-HASHI, Hirooki Goto, and Tomohiro Ishii 9/11/202

[WingedEagle]

I'm comfortable saying he'll rank in the top quarter of my ballot and wouldn't be at all surprised if he finished in the top half of it.  This is year 10 of a run that's seen him produce more great matches than just about anyone every single year.

[smoldoink]

1 hour ago, Boss Rock said:

The Tenryu match is one of the most impressive carry jobs in recent memory. Not sure I would call it a "good" match because Tenryu had no business doing anything in a wrestling ring, but they put together a match that worked and that has to be a feather in Okada's cap.

The Suzuki rain match wasn't their best together but still really good. It worked their typical formula and they did a great job adjusting to the slippery mat.

I also agree with Okada-Shibata being the best match of the 2010's. As amazing as Shibata was, there's no way he has that match with anyone else.

For Okada tag matches, these are all good ones:

w/Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Tetsuya Naito 12/23/2013
w/Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Katsuyori Shibata 11/7/2015
w/Tomohiro Ishii vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Katsuyori Shibata 12/19/2015
w/YOSHI-HASHI vs. Naomichi Marufuji and Toru Yano 8/10/2016
w/Gedo vs. Kota Ibushi and TAKA Michinoku 9/4/2017
w/Tomohiro Ishii vs. Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega 9/30/2018
w/Hiroshi Tanahashi, Hirooki Goto, and Kota Ibushi vs. Manabu Nakanishi, Satoshi Kojima, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, and Yuji Nagata 2/22/2020
w/Toru Yano and SHO vs. YOSHI-HASHI, Hirooki Goto, and Tomohiro Ishii 8/9/2020
w/Toru Yano and SHO vs. YOSHI-HASHI, Hirooki Goto, and Tomohiro Ishii 9/11/202

Beyond giving Shibata the opportunity to reverse the rainmaker, what does Okada bring to this match that any other Japanese main eventer couldn't?

[Boss Rock]

12 minutes ago, smoldoink said:

Beyond giving Shibata the opportunity to reverse the rainmaker, what does Okada bring to this match that any other Japanese main eventer couldn't?

The entire story and narrative of the match. You have the young, cocky, yet dominant ace defending against the prodigal son turned sentimental favorite. The ace questions whether or not the sentimental favorite has what it takes to be the best. The favorite questions the ace's toughness. You have Okada trying to big league and beat Shibata at his own game only to fail and thus decide it's wiser to go back to his bread and butter. But Shibata lands that big shot which throws Okada off his game and he decides to play into Shibata's strategy. And Shibata's onslaught is all the more effective because of A) how well Okada sells everything and B ) this is the first time Okada has ever been so thoroughly dominated and overwhelmed by a superior striker and grappler. It's one of those "he's been on the top so long, he kinda had this coming". He's only able to outlast and win the match because Shibata gets TOO caught up in beating him up and not sealing the deal.

Shibata never had this match with Ishii, Goto, or Suzuki because they're similar, hard-hitting wrestlers so their matches were more bull-moose fights. He never had this match with Tanahashi because the latter was a defending hero who, while he could play heel, never had the same level of cockiness and desire for one ups-manship Okada had. The story and action aren't nearly as effective without Okada's franchise player at 29 character.

[Makai Club #1]

This is risky territory. There are plenty of matches that "could've had anyone other wrestler" in. The facts are that it didn't have any other wrestler in, the match had Okada in. 

[strobogo]

Shibata/Okada is a pretty specific story with specific character dynamics that couldn't be replicated with any two other wrestlers. Okada being Okada and booked like Okada is completely essential to the match, as is Shibata's history, style, and personality/persona. This match couldn't have been replicated even with Tana/Shibata, which has their own pretty specific history and story for their matches but is quite different. It's important to Okada's career narrative as well, and if Gedo wasn't so lazy, it would play into NJ lore like so many of the 70s/80s/90s matches, but instead it kind of gets swept into a corner because of Shibata braining himself. 

[DylanZero]

He didn't word it well but I totally agree with his point and it's an apt comparison to really expand upon his entire career and why I think he's overrated.

 

At the end of the day Okada's a mid-tier guy that got pushed to the top top tier because the booker saw star potential in him and it was a zeitgeist moment of that push coming right at the point where many got into NJPW for the very first time and got emotionally attached to him. But his actual wrestling is nothing special, especially in comparison to the top tier of guys over the years and relies on the big match format. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's never had good matches, but it's for the reasons being argued for the Shibata match, because the way he was booked. If you look into his performances the house cards almost always falls apart and when he's away from other great workers and getting pushed, it's almost universally agreed it's horrible. Many people say his red hair, balloon era G1 sucked and they're correct, but what's really telling about it and to a greater extent him is that he didn't fail miserably at it in his wrestling. He wrestled the exact same way as he always did, while they tried to portray him as a depressed and/or mentally unhinged guy at not being a main eventer anymore, and yet he still won almost every match, in the same way as he did. Fast forward to now trying to get this money clip over and that also has been universally panned and his execution is laughably bad. I would trust anyone from the Divas era of WWE or the Power Plant of WCW to put on a submission better than Okada does the money clip. And that's still only slightly better than the Lucha inspired submissions he tried early on in his Ace runs that even Josh Barnett had to admit weren't very effective on English commentary in the AXS era to maintain credibility. People feel something and resonate with this guy and I'll never understand why.

 

Nevermind the legends and all time greats, but even among his contemporaries like Kento (who I already said I don't think is that great), Kaito, & Takeshita he's miles behind in playing different roles and getting the most out of his own Ace role. He really is the definition of just a guy who happened to have the right look and come along at the right time and got pushed at the top tier. Again I'm not saying he never had great matches, but even his great matches aren't a huge plus for me. Every year he'll have 3-5 great matches and yet he'll get more opportunities than nearly every single person to have them in Japan and elsewhere. His batting average isn't higher than like a dozen guys on his own roster, so how can I rank him an all time great? I don't see it at all. 

[Boss Rock]

34 minutes ago, DylanZero said:

He didn't word it well but I totally agree with his point and it's an apt comparison to really expand upon his entire career and why I think he's overrated.

 

At the end of the day Okada's a mid-tier guy that got pushed to the top top tier because the booker saw star potential in him and it was a zeitgeist moment of that push coming right at the point where many got into NJPW for the very first time and got emotionally attached to him. But his actual wrestling is nothing special, especially in comparison to the top tier of guys over the years and relies on the big match format. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's never had good matches, but it's for the reasons being argued for the Shibata match, because the way he was booked. If you look into his performances the house cards almost always falls apart and when he's away from other great workers and getting pushed, it's almost universally agreed it's horrible. Many people say his red hair, balloon era G1 sucked and they're correct, but what's really telling about it and to a greater extent him is that he didn't fail miserably at it in his wrestling. He wrestled the exact same way as he always did, while they tried to portray him as a depressed and/or mentally unhinged guy at not being a main eventer anymore, and yet he still won almost every match, in the same way as he did. Fast forward to now trying to get this money clip over and that also has been universally panned and his execution is laughably bad. I would trust anyone from the Divas era of WWE or the Power Plant of WCW to put on a submission better than Okada does the money clip. And that's still only slightly better than the Lucha inspired submissions he tried early on in his Ace runs that even Josh Barnett had to admit weren't very effective on English commentary in the AXS era to maintain credibility. People feel something and resonate with this guy and I'll never understand why.

 

Nevermind the legends and all time greats, but even among his contemporaries like Kento (who I already said I don't think is that great), Kaito, & Takeshita he's miles behind in playing different roles and getting the most out of his own Ace role. He really is the definition of just a guy who happened to have the right look and come along at the right time and got pushed at the top tier. Again I'm not saying he never had great matches, but even his great matches aren't a huge plus for me. Every year he'll have 3-5 great matches and yet he'll get more opportunities than nearly every single person to have them in Japan and elsewhere. His batting average isn't higher than like a dozen guys on his own roster, so how can I rank him an all time great? I don't see it at all. 

Strongly disagree with all of this. Saying he's only had good matches against great wrestlers completely overlooks what he's gotten out of the likes of Fale, Makabe, and Elgin, to say nothing of 2015 Tenryu. And while you could argue the balloon maker was more of a cosmetic change rather than an in-ring one, the argument that he was bad in that G1 is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. He pretty much carried an all-time terrible block on his back. And there's no way I would say Takeshita is miles ahead of him. I like Takeshita, but he's a much, much worse seller and isn't an engaging ace or personality at all.

Who would you say has a higher batting average in NJPW?

[smoldoink]

11 minutes ago, Boss Rock said:

Strongly disagree with all of this. Saying he's only had good matches against great wrestlers completely overlooks what he's gotten out of the likes of Fale, Makabe, and Elgin, to say nothing of 2015 Tenryu. And while you could argue the balloon maker was more of a cosmetic change rather than an in-ring one, the argument that he was bad in that G1 is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. He pretty much carried an all-time terrible block on his back. And there's no way I would say Takeshita is miles ahead of him. I like Takeshita, but he's a much, much worse seller and isn't an engaging ace or personality at all.

Who would you say has a higher batting average in NJPW?

Just within the same era you'd have to at least say Naito. He got good to great matches out of about everyone they threw at him

[Boss Rock]

The only folks I would say for sure who are higher than him would be Tanahashi and Ishii. 

And I do want to make it clear that there are quite a few current era NJPW guys I'm strongly considering for my ballot. But saying a dozen or so are better him? Yeah I don't see it at all.

[DylanZero]

25 minutes ago, Boss Rock said:

Strongly disagree with all of this. Saying he's only had good matches against great wrestlers completely overlooks what he's gotten out of the likes of Fale, Makabe, and Elgin, to say nothing of 2015 Tenryu. And while you could argue the balloon maker was more of a cosmetic change rather than an in-ring one, the argument that he was bad in that G1 is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. He pretty much carried an all-time terrible block on his back. And there's no way I would say Takeshita is miles ahead of him. I like Takeshita, but he's a much, much worse seller and isn't an engaging ace or personality at all.

Who would you say has a higher batting average in NJPW?

Makabe I'll give you as that was a great match and better than what most of his contemporaries could have and would be able to get out of him, Fale and Elgin weren't either man's best matches or even particularly good IMO. Tenryu I agree that the match was verybgood but an extremely special case and again not based on him being a great wrestler. I actually KIND OF agree with your point on that G1, because I know I'm not alone in thinking he wasn't good in it, even among Okada fans. But to me I think if you were a fan of his before you should have liked his G1 then too as he didn't change anything about his wrestling, his changes were purely cosmetic. But to me that's still a huge negative. Where is his big tag run, where are his special matches where he is great in an unexpected way? Where did he do anything different from what he did against everyone else?

 

In 2021 higher batting average would be many to me, but I would immediately list Ishii, Tanahashi, Goto, Ibushi, Hiromu, Shingo, SHO, YOSHI-HASHI, Nagata, Kojima and I feel confident in all 10 of those guys having a better average of performances than Okada, and you can also make arguments for others that other people think are great and I either don't like as much as others (ZSJ) or don't think has enough singles match experience even though I enjoy watching them more (Finlay) and you could pick some on some days and Okada on others, I would say Naito, ZSJ, Desperado, Finlay, Suzuki, all have cases to be above Okada as well in a pure "likelihood of having a great performance on a given night" although again, I would put Okada above some of them and if we are talking career I also think for an overall career I would take nearly all of those over Okada as well outside of Desperado and Finlay, maybe YH & SHO and add in KENTA who I don't think is very good in the ring but was at a level far higher in the past. Then you get into the area of prior guys like the aforementioned Shibata and I just can't see any way Okada's an all time great breaking it down.

 

As far as Takeshita I saw that guy have huge main events with Akiyama that are on the level of Okada's top matches and also elevate El Lindaman in a way Okada has never even come close to in a singles match against a heavy underdog opponent like that in a matter of like a month last year. There's just no variety at all with Okada. If he's not in a specific role, the house of cards all falls down just like I said.

[Boss Rock]

2 minutes ago, DylanZero said:

Makabe I'll give you as that was a great match and better than what most of his contemporaries could have and would be able to get out of him, Fale and Elgin weren't either man's best matches or even particularly good IMO. Tenryu I agree that the match was verybgood but an extremely special case and again not based on him being a great wrestler. I actually KIND OF agree with your point on that G1, because I know I'm not alone in thinking he wasn't good in it, even among Okada fans. But to me I think if you were a fan of his before you should have liked his G1 then too as he didn't change anything about his wrestling, his changes were purely cosmetic. But to me that's still a huge negative. Where is his big tag run, where are his special matches where he is great in an unexpected way? Where did he do anything different from anyone else?

 

In 2021 higher batting average would be many to me, but I would immediately list Ishii, Tanahashi, Goto, Ibushi, Hiromu, Shingo, SHO, YOSHI-HASHI, Nagata, Kojima and I feel confident in all 10 of those guys having a better average of performances than Okada, and you can also make arguments for others that other people think are great and I either don't like as much as others (ZSJ) or don't think has enough singles match experience even though I enjoy watching them more (Finlay) and you could pick some on some days and Okada on others, I would say Naito, ZSJ, Desperado, Finlay, Suzuki, all have cases to be above Okada as well in a pure "likelihood of having a great performance on a given night" although again, I would put Okada above some of them and if we are talking career I also think for an overall career I would take nearly all of those over Okada as well outside of Desperado and Finlay, maybe YH & SHO and add in KENTA who I don't think is very good in the ring but was at a level far higher in the past. Then you get into the area of prior guys like the aforementioned Shibata and I just can't see any way Okada's an all time great breaking it down.

 

As far as Takeshita I saw that guy have huge main events with Akiyama that are on the level of Okada's top matches and also elevate El Lindaman in a way Okada has never even come close to in a singles match against a heavy underdog opponent like that in a matter of like a month last year. There's just no variety at all with Okada. If he's not in a specific role, the house of cards all falls down just like I said.

When it comes to 2021, I think Okada's singles matches output trumps pretty much everyone listed except Shingo (the EVIL match wasn't great but was as good as you can do with someone as bad as EVIL). I'm confident he beats a fair number of them career-wise as well. Ishii and Tanahashi are the only ones who I would comfortably say have had better careers. Ibushi possibly but he had some notable bad habits over the years that he still occasionally brings out. Naito is close but isn't always the most inconsistent and his best stuff was definitely when he became Ingobernable. For Suzuki, the only other person I've seen him have better "best" matches against than Okada are Tanahashi and maybe that one Sugiura match. Shingo's pre-2018 is good but also doesn't connect nearly as much as his current work has. Everyone else listed, I think Okada's career largely blows them out of the water. 2020 was really the only year I felt Okada somewhat disappointed on a match-to-match basis, but it was by no means a complete wash as he still had some of the best matches of the year.

As far as elevating underdogs, I would wager the 2012 Anniversary match against Naito and his 2017 matches against Kojima (aged veteran struggling to prove he can still go with the elite) and Juice (plucky babyface trying to impress in his first G1). The TAKA anniversary tag also has 

As far as tag matches go, I think all the ones I posted he is very good in. But I'll also not pretend the bulk of his resume isn't singles work (although in all fairness, who in NJPW does?)

[DylanZero]

I'll give some of those tag matches you posted another shot and some of his older singles work. I probably won't ever be as high on Okada as you and a lot of people but it's only fair to comb through these guys, especially high profile ones like Okada and Omega.

 

I also will say few from modern day NJPW will be on my list. Tana and Ishii will be locks and I might find room for Goto as he is someone I consider underrated historically and arguably the most "consistent" of anyone in NJPW for even longer than Ishii. Okada, Naito, Ibushi are the big names I'll be looking at but I've never liked any of them as much as others in the past. But 3 out of this NJPW era I recognize is a low number for most people.

[dkookypunk43]

Just for context I watched the Okada-Omega G1 B Block Final for my latest episode of Great Match Generator that is dropping on Friday and man does that match still hold up. As a 25 minute blow for blow, balls to the wall sprint it doesn't get any better. I feel as if okada connects to me in every way possible as a pro wrestler and I feel the match structure and the way he moves in a match is awesome. That matches close to the Shibata match to me though to be Fair I haven't watched the Shibata match in 5 years. Okada has a case for number one and I will get into a more nuanced case later but I feel very strongly about this and living through that era of New Japan Pro wrestling was the most exciting thing for me as a fan because I wasn't around for the attitude era or '90s all Japan or any of that so this is my era. Can I definitively say he's an all-time great? Yes but on the Mount Rushmore I have to examine that. And to be saying that about a man who is 34 years old and is still wrestling at a very high level is top notch

[dkookypunk43]

To me if you're harping on 2021 okada then you're missing the point here prime okada is from 2012 to 2019 and it's a 7-year run of excellence and straight banger after banger after banger in my opinion. Even going back and watching like the tanahashi matches and the stuff with the Suzuki and going back to his earlier stuff he built his matches around his earlier stuff brilliantly. Yeah he is a bit lazy in tags and I wish his tag performances were better but I point to the osprey one with omega and ibushi and that matches brilliant. I don't think any wrestler could have taken okada's place and had the same success as he had. He has a certain charisma about him and a certain charm about his matches that really connect with both the Japanese and the western audience

[dkookypunk43]

For me okada is a top 10 lock unless there's a real bad decline and I don't think there's going to be a real bad decline. Looking back on this I should have made this one post but here I am

[strobogo]

It took probably until 2015 until Okada started to click for me, and I agree with all criticisms in this thread. I've come to be less and less interested in his work outside of the G1 because of the main event style default becoming longer and longer in NJ leading to the boring first 15-20 minutes of work that goes nowhere. There's also certainly a too much too soon factor with him where he broke basically every achievement there is to have in the company by the time he was 30 which leads to things like "he's bored and knows he's going to get the title back multiple times so he's going to try to use this shitty submission no one likes and looks lame for a year just to challenge himself". 

 

Unless NJ booking continues to be so dull and uninteresting, it's impossible to think he's not somewhere on the list in 5 years.