Current New Japan

[Captain Redneck]

3 hours ago, aaeo_ said:

At this point, it's awe-inspiring that with a roster that includes Suzuki, Goto and Ibushi, they keep finding a way to put their belt on the dullest wrestlers they can possibly find.

Goto is boring as fuck.

[aaeo_]

I strongly disagree!

[benjaminkicks]

I'm excited about this title change, as I love it when a company goes all-in on pushing a new star. It feels very fresh and presents a lot of interesting possibilities going forward. The heat for the MSG main event is going to be off the charts no matter who they put in that spot vs. Jay, because you know the crowd is going to be 100% behind them. If it's a fan favorite like Okada, Ibushi, or Naito, it'll be like that awesome match he had with Juice last summer x10.

I always find it exciting when a guy who I've been following since the young lion days comes back from their excursion and makes a splash, and Jay White has done an excellent job justifying his push over the last year. His character work and promos have been top notch and I'm pretty high on his matches as well. I was a little iffy during the G1 where all his matches were mired by chair shots and cheating, but I think that was really effective at getting him over as a major heel to the Japanese audience, and now that he's winning his matches cleanly I'm really enjoying what he brings in-ring. 

[William Bologna]

I would have been more on board with this if the match were better. It's really too bad about the finish. Should have been a bigger moment.

Kevin Kelly after White's speech: "A hush has fallen over the crowd!" Nah, man. That hush didn't just get there. Place was dead the whole time.

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, benjaminkicks said:

I'm excited about this title change, as I love it when a company goes all-in on pushing a new star. It feels very fresh and presents a lot of interesting possibilities going forward. The heat for the MSG main event is going to be off the charts no matter who they put in that spot vs. Jay, because you know the crowd is going to be 100% behind them. If it's a fan favorite like Okada, Ibushi, or Naito, it'll be like that awesome match he had with Juice last summer x10.

I always find it exciting when a guy who I've been following since the young lion days comes back from their excursion and makes a splash, and Jay White has done an excellent job justifying his push over the last year. His character work and promos have been top notch and I'm pretty high on his matches as well. I was a little iffy during the G1 where all his matches were mired by chair shots and cheating, but I think that was really effective at getting him over as a major heel to the Japanese audience, and now that he's winning his matches cleanly I'm really enjoying what he brings in-ring. 

This honestly felt like I was reading about another wrestler. White is HHH in 99' status to me. He's a fine talent but there's tons of people I'd more excited to see get this kind of push instead of him.

[benjaminkicks]

54 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

This honestly felt like I was reading about another wrestler. White is HHH in 99' status to me. He's a fine talent but there's tons of people I'd more excited to see get this kind of push instead of him.

I think we have very different views on the product in general based off your previous comments throughout this thread. I freely admit to being a straight-up mark for modern New Japan, as it has been consistently my favorite promotion throughout the 8+ years that I've been following it closely. It's like Star Wars for me, where even though I recognize the faults and admit the franchise isn't perfect by any means, there's just something about it that always resonates deeply with me on an emotional level. That emotional investment is where pro wrestling (and entertainment media in general) is at its best for me.

As much as I genuinely like and enjoy Jay White, a lot of my positivity surrounding this title change comes from my confidence in Gedo as a booker to craft a story that I'll personally enjoy. 

I also just want to see Jay White succeed because I've been watching him grow since he was a young lion, which really helps me invest in him as a character. I feel the same way with other young lions that I saw come up like EVIL, Hiromu, SHO, and YOH, and will most likely feel the same about the current crop when they eventually make their way back from excursion. I wasn't alone in having White pegged as a potential future star back when he was killing it in opening matches vs. David Finlay, so now it's exciting to see him come back from excursion and be that big star that I thought he could become back in 2015. 

[El-P]

Watching the match, to me it's a letdown. The match itself is really good, although way too long, it did not need to go 30 mn. And the Jay White win kinda comes from nowhere, really and there isn't a real sense of "oh shit it's done" happening to me. And although he's a really good worker and has been excellent as a heel, White doesn't have much charisma. He's like the greatest Tim Horner ever. It's obvious what Gedo is trying to do here, but really, White is not Styles and definitely not Omega. So yeah, really good match, but very underwhelming booking decision to say the least.The whole "cutthroat era" and "breathe with the switchblade"sounds as dumb as any WWE catchphrase BTW.  Tanahashi's great quest looks wasted on a guy who's being pushed faster than he should (the Sasaki curse ?), on what was clearly a B-show.

Taguchi vs Ishimori was very good and probably my favourite match of the show and I like the idea of Liger competing for the title on his 30th birthday year. The Suzuki-Gun vs LIJ six-men was very good too, these guys can have these kind of all-action match in their sleep at this point. No idea where they are going with Naito, the Taichii feud is done (really enjoyed the match BTW, Taichii is underrated as a pure worker).

Suzuki vs Kojima and Liger was the fun part of the opener, but again, waste of Suzuki here.

Meanwhile, Bad Luck Fale has his usual good match with Okada, but really who cares at this point ? I'm so over the whole Bullet Club stuff. I never enjoyed the americanization of the NJ product, and Bullet Club is more tired than the nWo B-team in 1999 on Thunder. 

The real "big" news here is Ibushi staying with NJ. It was to be expected honestly. We need more Ibushi/Naito/Okada/Tana on top in a all-native main event scene, with Ishii/Goto/Sanada challenging. Omega was awesome in his role. White is "solid". But the IWGP champ ? Not seeing it.

[sek69]

It seems like Gedo just copy-pasted White's name in to all his booking plans that Omega was set for, and...yeah. He ain't Kenny. 

[Mad Dog]

Tanahashi was fighting an epic battle to keep his ass in his pants during that match. 

I'm not a Jay White fan. He's at least better in ring this year but I just find him to be bland as fuck. I'm hoping this is so Okada can slay the dragon at Dominion or have a title change at MSG. 

[Mad Dog]

I was dreading this match going into it. I hated their match from Wrestle Kingdom last year. I was pleasantly surprised by this. It didn't feel like 30 minutes which was a big plus. I liked the sudden shift from the slow paced match to the frantic trying to put each other away. Nowhere on the level of Omega/Tanahashi but it was a good match.

[Big Pete]

It's a tough position for White to be in. As Meltzer has been reporting, he's essentially been booked as Kenny's replacement and so the plan for him is to face Okada at the MSG show where he'll likely drop the title to Okada and from there Okada will likely come up against Tanahashi, Naito & Ibushi as potential challengers, with Ibushi being the next guy in line for them to pull the trigger on. As Dave mentioned on the Observer yesterday, Ibushi is one of those guys who would have had a run by now, if he had committed to the company. Ibushi was notoriously non-committal to NJPW, so they never felt comfortable making him a star despite his undeniable talent.

I actually have a lot of time for White and think he's shown himself to be a quick learner. When he was in ROH and they were hellbent on doing nothing with him, I was impressed with just his basics like his forearm strikes and just how crisp and cleaned they looked. He still couldn't get over because he didn't 'crash and burn' enough or try and act goofy but he was one of those talents who in 2-3 years time could make something of himself. Of course Gedo said to hell with that, and we've ended up with what appears to be the worst IWGP run since the renaissance. This shouldn't be a long reign, and I think in the grand scheme of things makes the most amount of sense of Okada beating White and it actually meaning something. The problem is that when this is all said and done, White is going to have that perception of being a Kenny Omega stand-in and I think fans will have a tough time getting invested in his programs with Naito, Ibushi, Ospreay etc. when they come along.

Onto the NJPW/ROH cross-over shows I guess. Cobb/Goto and Ospreay/Castle should be OK...I'm not sure what to make of Lethal/Tanahashi/Okada vs. The Kingdom or Lethal vs. O'Ryan for the ROH Title.

[Jmare007]

I still contend the "Gedo hasn't pulled the trigger on Ibushi because he's non committal" narrative. I mean, New Japan has made him a way bigger star than he was 5 years ago, and that's even after he took his shit and went home for almost a year. They LOVE Ibushi.

Gedo hasn't pulled the trigger on fucking Naito yet, he's just content with what he has in Okada/Tanahashi and likes to add a gaijin to mix in between. It's been that way for 8 years now, unless you wanna count Naito's 1 month transitional reign

[El-P]

30 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Gedo hasn't pulled the trigger on fucking Naito yet, he's just content with what he has in Okada/Tanahashi and likes to add a gaijin to mix in between.

And if Gedo has made a mistake, this is it. Meltz mentioned on his Dome show report that the LIJ merchandise was not as prevalent as it was a year before. Naito may not be as over as he was one year ago. After a while, people get tired of waiting. If there's one analogy to be made, it's Baba waiting too long to pull the trigger on Kawada beating Misawa for the TC, and then Kawada never was the Man. I'm afraid when Naito is gonna get his due it's gonna look like an honorific prize and not capitalizing on the hottest star they have. The fact White is getting the IWGP title while Naito still seemingly is feuding with Taichii over a secondary belt is kinda ridiculous. I know White is probably just a transitional champ, but still. Good for him now, but that may be a curse in the long run.

[Big Pete]

1 hour ago, Jmare007 said:

I still contend the "Gedo hasn't pulled the trigger on Ibushi because he's non committal" narrative. I mean, New Japan has made him a way bigger star than he was 5 years ago, and that's even after he took his shit and went home for almost a year. They LOVE Ibushi.

Gedo hasn't pulled the trigger on fucking Naito yet, he's just content with what he has in Okada/Tanahashi and likes to add a gaijin to mix in between. It's been that way for 6 years now, unless you wanna count Naito's 1 month transitional reign

In the past year they definitely have, but that one year sabbatical really set him back. I've read that the Tiger Mask W deal was supposed to be a strong endorsment, but watching it he came across as a mid-card geek and didn't really begin figuring into anything important until the WrestleKingdom match with Cody. Even so, he's one of the few guys on the roster who hasn't received a G-1 win or an IWGP reign who would actually seem worthy.

As far as Naito, the timing has just never worked out. When LIJ was one of the hottest acts in 2015-16, they decided to put all their eggs into the Kenny Omega basket because they wanted to continue their global expansion. Naito and Okada appeared to be in the midst of a bitter rivalry, but when they interrupted it with Omega, and Omega had the audacity to have such a famous match with Okada, it made Naito an after-thought. By the time they around to doing Okada-Naito at the Dome, the fanbase was eagerly anticipating Okada-Omega IV which seemed to be the appropriate climax to the storyline they were telling. In a sense, they did pull the trigger on Naito in 2016, but it was such a weak attempt, it hurt Naito more than it helped. I may also be alone on this, but between Tanahashi, Omega and Naito, it seemed like he had the least amount of chemistry with Tetsuya and couldn't quite achieve the same quality with him as he did with others.

[aaeo_]

It's occured to me that the "Ibushi hasn't signed a contract" thing waspossibly a work. The only places where he has actually wrestled since 2017 are NJPW and their affiliates (and one Power Hall show, I suppose).

[Makai Club #1]

17 minutes ago, aaeo_ said:

It's occured to me that the "Ibushi hasn't signed a contract" thing waspossibly a work. The only places where he has actually wrestled since 2017 are NJPW and their affiliates (and one Power Hall show, I suppose).

Doubt it. Ibushi is a big enough star that it would've leaked out that it was a work. The announcement that he signed was leaked very quickly so no doubt it being a work would've also been announced. 

[Jmare007]

11 hours ago, Big Pete said:

In the past year they definitely have, but that one year sabbatical really set him back. I've read that the Tiger Mask W deal was supposed to be a strong endorsment, but watching it he came across as a mid-card geek and didn't really begin figuring into anything important until the WrestleKingdom match with Cody. Even so, he's one of the few guys on the roster who hasn't received a G-1 win or an IWGP reign who would actually seem worthy.

As far as Naito, the timing has just never worked out. When LIJ was one of the hottest acts in 2015-16, they decided to put all their eggs into the Kenny Omega basket because they wanted to continue their global expansion. Naito and Okada appeared to be in the midst of a bitter rivalry, but when they interrupted it with Omega, and Omega had the audacity to have such a famous match with Okada, it made Naito an after-thought. By the time they around to doing Okada-Naito at the Dome, the fanbase was eagerly anticipating Okada-Omega IV which seemed to be the appropriate climax to the storyline they were telling. In a sense, they did pull the trigger on Naito in 2016, but it was such a weak attempt, it hurt Naito more than it helped. I may also be alone on this, but between Tanahashi, Omega and Naito, it seemed like he had the least amount of chemistry with Tetsuya and couldn't quite achieve the same quality with him as he did with others.

But the Ibushi love goes back to when he was a Junior. He's always been treated better than any other free lancer (except maybe Sasuke? though his run was shorter) and the sabbatical didn't mean anything as he was right back to being treated like a big deal, his announcement for the G-1 was heavily promoted.

RE: Naito. How can you say he was an afterthought and that for the WK 12 match the fans were eagerly anticipating Okada-Omega IV?? Okada vs Naito did amazing business for the Dome and he got Hashimoto-level reaction during that match. The fans wanted a title change, Gedo just decided to keep his (at the time) 6 year formula and give the belt to the gaijin.

I'm way more inclined to believe Ibushi hasn't gotten a run because Gedo's booking style than him not signing a long term contract. He had no issue giving the belt to gaijins that he knew were always getting tempted to leave to the U.S.

At some point he's gonna have to change it up. Hopefully it will be 2019, but if Okada is the one that gets the belt at the Garden, we might have to add anothe year to the Tana/Okada/Gaijin formula. That's insane, specially because it keeps working

[NintendoLogic]

12 hours ago, El-P said:

If there's one analogy to be made, it's Baba waiting too long to pull the trigger on Kawada beating Misawa for the TC, and then Kawada never was the Man.

Why would you think that Kawada should have ever been the man in pre-split All Japan?

[Big Pete]

Quote

But the Ibushi love goes back to when he was a Junior. He's always been treated better than any other free lancer (except maybe Sasuke? though his run was shorter) and the sabbatical didn't mean anything as he was right back to being treated like a big deal, his announcement for the G-1 was heavily promoted. 

I understand what you're saying, but they've never gone out of their way to make him a star. Until last year's G-1, Ibushi was always treated as a level below Okada, Tanahashi, Omega, Naito etc. and while Gedo would give him favourable booking, it's taken him a long time to make him a main event level talent.

Quote

RE: Naito. How can you say he was an afterthought and that for the WK 12 match the fans were eagerly anticipating Okada-Omega IV??

Because of the way the story played out and NJPW's interest to expand into global markets. From a story-telling perspective as well, it made more sense for Omega to be the one to beat him. Through out their series, Omega had been gaining on Okada to the point where Omega had beaten Okada, albeit in the context of a gruelling G-1. He went loss, draw, win and considering Okada's reign was beginning to feel like a sword in the stone, from a form perspective, it made sense for Omega, a guy who had yet to be champion, to be the guy to dethrone him.

With Naito, I feel if they were going to make him champion, they should have either held off that 2016 reign, or had him beat Okada at WKXI when the feud had momentum.

Quote

I'm way more inclined to believe Ibushi hasn't gotten a run because Gedo's booking style than him not signing a long term contract. He had no issue giving the belt to gaijins that he knew were always getting tempted to leave to the U.S. 

You could be right, I was really just piggybacking what Dave had said on his podcast. I get the sense that they were hesitant to push Ibushi as hard as they could, even though Nakamura did a wonderful job of making Ibushi come across like a star at WKIX, but that could be Gedo's well known stubborn streak.

 

[sek69]

I think there was a little of column A, column B going on with Ibushi. He was always going to be featured just because of how good he was, but there was definately going to be a ceiling on how far he could go without being signed to a deal. He could do dream match tags with Kenny, but I just don't think they would have ever put a major title on him without signing first. 

[Boss Rock]

I thought Tana-Jay was very good and probably their best match together. I also think Jay has improved in leaps and bounds by taking his already good execution and applying an actual character he understands to it. He's done trying to be the mysterious "Switchblade" and is instead a more traditional heel who just happens to have the nickname of Switchblade. That being said, I don't quite agree with putting the belt on him. On the one hand, it's a somewhat fresh decision after putting the belt on Tanahashi when NJPW spent the last three years telling fans he wasn't the ace anymore. Him beating Kenny in the ME of WK, while pretty much done because Kenny was leaving, still seemed like a really bizarre decision after having Okada and Naito surpass him in their prior feuds. But Jay still just doesn't have "It". Like his booking has helped and he's far more confident, but he still seems more suited to be an upper-midcard heel in the IC title picture. I do agree that he'll end up being a transitional champ as he likely drops the title to Okada in MSG or to Naito at Dominion (I still think Okada-Naito is the ME for one of the Dome shows).

As far as Ibushi goes, I think him leaving would have been a huge blow to NJPW. Outside of Okada, Tana, and Naito, there aren't really a whole lot of wrestlers who are both good in the ring and could be believable top stars for the company to push (not to say I wouldn't be happy with Ishii or Juice getting a title run, heh). And I do think a hesitancy to fully commit to Ibushi was due to him being a freelancer. Once Shibata signed he became the NEVER ace and was seemingly being groomed for at least an IC title run before his injury. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Ibushi jumps in line ahead of Naito to become champ.

[El-P]

7 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Why would you think that Kawada should have ever been the man in pre-split All Japan?

Not The Man in the long run (Kobashi was destined to be probably) , but the TC win definitely came too late in the Misawa vs Kawada saga.

[Jmare007]

9 hours ago, Boss Rock said:

I do agree that he'll end up being a transitional champ as he likely drops the title to Okada in MSG or to Naito at Dominion (I still think Okada-Naito is the ME for one of the Dome shows).

 

My guess is that one Dome show will be Okada vs ?? (probably Naito) and the other will be Ibushi vs Omega.

 

Would LOVE to see some interpromotional matches to boost up the cards.

[El-P]

18 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Would LOVE to see some interpromotional matches to boost up the cards.

Yeah, me too. And by interpromotional matches, I don't mean ROH guys. Those Honor shows in Korakuen are completely missable, nothing to see there apart from Cobb vs Goto.

[Jmare007]

3 minutes ago, El-P said:

Yeah, me too. And by interpromotional matches, I don't mean ROH guys. Those Honor shows in Korakuen are completely missable, nothing to see there apart from Cobb vs Goto.

Oh, of course. I mean Japanese promotions. I'm still praying to Baba that something positives comes out of All Star Battle next week.