King of the Ring 98 Counterfactual

[efrim]

Even having seen it repeated ad nauseam, I always cringe watching Foley's accidental second cell fall at KotR 98. It's an incredibly perilous moment and I've long been grimly fascinated by Foley's contention that if he had taken the chokeslam correctly, he likely would have come down on his head instead of landing on his back. Watching the footage, it seems like a pretty reasonable notion.

 

So, I'd like to throw out a counterfactual exercise based on just that - what if Foley lands on his head/neck that night and dies or is paralyzed? What happens to the WWF and the wrestling industry as a whole? I find it to be an interesting question because a few degrees of rotation on an accidental fall may have been the only thing separating an indelible moment from an unthinkable tragedy.

[overbooked]

I guess the obvious answer is "No more Hell in a Cell", but I could easily imagine fewer garbage bumps generally, so no TLC matches, ladder matches, cage matches, and the Spanish Announce Table remaining intact for the majority of PPVs.

 

However, apart from that, I don't think there would be many long-term consequences - WWF and pro wrestling generally seem pretty resilient when it comes to these kinds of things.

[flyonthewall2983]

If he was paralyzed I'd imagine there would have been huge media uproar, lawsuits and general national dissension and disillusion towards wrestling. If he was killed, those things would just be the tip of the iceberg. WCW would be out of business by 2000, and Vince would probably be wrapped up in lawsuits for the rest of his natural life.

[Coffey]

The second fall was an accident? I didn't know that. I just assumed it was a planned spot with that part of the cage supposed to give.

[Shining Wiz]

They've always said it was accidental, but I remember watching it back and it's clear they're avoiding that portion of the cell when they are on top.

[bradhindsight]

^ See, I always thought that was because the fence links were breaking so they were trying to walk on the bars as much as possible.

[Shining Wiz]

If they were so worried about the fence links breaking in that section that they wouldn't walk on it, then they had to know what the result of a chokeslam would be.

[Loss]

I don't think it would have been doomsday. Owen Hart died in a fall and WWE didn't skip a beat in terms of popularity. They did get some media backlash, but it was short-lived because of the perception that because wrestling is fake, so are the people involved.

[Fantastic]

Didn't Vince "strongly advise" Foley and Taker not to do it? Or translated, Vince knew Foley and Taker were going to do it regardless because they were both tough enough and insane enough to pull it off and survive, but had to be "proper" and "responsible" due to his position.

 

I like to think they had two big spot options going into the match:

 

1) Taker throwing Foley off the cage and through the table below (most dangerous)

 

or

 

2) Foley taking a bump through a rigged mesh piece on top of the cell and into the ring below (least dangerous)

 

For whatever reason, Foley having survived the first, and perhaps running on a high from the crowd, decided to go through with the second also, having survived the first and most dangerous spot. What I think wasn't planned was the chair landing with him and KO'ing him whilst knocking his tooth out and embedding it in his cheek.

 

I think Foley had died or was left paralysed or something awful like that, the WWF would still be around, but I don't think Taker would. I don't think he's the kind of guy who could "accept" it as an accident and he probably would have retired shortly afterwards.

[fakeplastictrees]

Owen's death was not shown to anyone outside the arena. The cameras were still rolling during KOTR. People were able to 'move on' (and I use that term as respectifully as I can) from Owen's death, because while it happened- the majority of us didn't see it. Foley dying in front of us would have definitely changed the landscape. I can see WWE losing its PPV deal and USA getting REALLY STRICT with WWE about what is allowed and what is and possibly even not renewing the contract after it ends. Perhaps stupid stuff like Angle's cage moonsault and Seth Rollins taking a back bump on the ladder during TLC 2013.

 

WWE would still be around in some form and a lot of fans would have moved on. HIAC,as a gimmick, would be gone and WWE would have probably transitioned immediately out-of-attitude and something into what became The Ruthless Aggression Era. Perhaps even some wrestlers begin to unionize as to completely avoid WWE 'forcing' the wrestlers to do spots like Foley. Owen's death probably would have never happened.

[Sidebottom]

There is no way he wasn't meant to go through the cage.

 

After being thrown off the thing and going back up, what were they supposed to do, just climb down?

[Eduardo]

Didn't Foley claim that the fence was supposed to partially give way, and he was supposed to slip through it (under his own control), as opposed to going through it like a hot knife through butter (like it ended up happening)? I remember hearing him say that specifically, although the way he claims it was supposed to happened sounds like it would be an awkward and odd looking spot.

[sek69]

I just happened to have watched that PPV after Raw, and I agree I don't see how the through-the-cage spot would have supposed to have gone if it wasn't meant to happen like that. The only thing I can think of that makes sense is the chair wasn't supposed to be close enough to fall down with him, since it was the chair bouncing up and hitting his face that caused the tooth to go up his nose (and probably the concussion too).

[fakeplastictrees]

Because of this thread, I decided to watch the match tonight. One of the things that sticks out is the fans chanting for Taker. If it was 2014, people would chant for Foley. I'm not exactly sure when it happened but people started to appreciate the bumper more than the one setting up/executing a move that caused the bump. It is because of this reason that someone like Ziggler is so over today. I also think this shift in fan appreciation (amongst over reasons) is why HIAC should be retired after this year. Imagine Ambrose playing the role of Taker and Rollins playing the role of Foley. Rollins would get over HUGE after the match and would turn de-facto face despite the booking.

[flyonthewall2983]

I heard it wasn't supposed to break through at all, Taker would pin him on top of the cage with the ref counting below.

 

FWIW, I think the bump he used at the end of the match with Orndorff at SuperBrawl 3 was just as, if not more dangerous. A few inches in the wrong direction and he'd probably be at least braindead.

[PeteF3]

I heard it wasn't supposed to break through at all, Taker would pin him on top of the cage with the ref counting below.

 

That doesn't work, because the thumbtacks were under the ring and clearly planned to be used (that was the "surprise" that Foley had promised beforehand).

[Sidebottom]

 

I heard it wasn't supposed to break through at all, Taker would pin him on top of the cage with the ref counting below.

 

That doesn't work, because the thumbtacks were under the ring and clearly planned to be used (that was the "surprise" that Foley had promised beforehand).

 

 

Not to mention Austin / Kane would have then been planned to be an awfully, awfully long match built around a man in a mask in a first blood match. Let's face it, everything went to plan.

[MikeCampbell]

I don't know, it's hard to say if there would have been any major consequences or repercussions if Mick's fall resulted in something more tragic. Shawn started using the crossface less than six months after the Benoit tragedy, and it didn't seem to be a big deal, and I think we'd all agree that the Benoit tragedy far outweighs the hypothetical Foley one. If Mick gets permantly injured, and the Foley family sues, I really don't see that working out too well for them, honestly. I'm not saying they would have lost in court, but I doubt a jury would feel overly sympathetic when they heard that Mick had been taking bumps onto concrete, tacks, ramps, etc. long before he was even on the WWF's radar.

 

It's safe to assume that the PPV would never have seen the light of day as far as a home video release goes, but, it would have wound up on the Network, although probably heavily edited. I've never watched it, but it's probably safe to assume that all mentions of Owen, and Owen's match, are removed from Over the Edge '99.

 

The first thing that came to my mind was that Kanyon's cage bump would have never seen the light of day. But, even that doesn't seem overly likely, when you really think about it. Wrestlers had been jumping off cages since at least '82 with Snuka/Backlund.

[adecorativedrop]

You can watch the numerous replays of the chokeslam bump beginning at 12:50

 

Judging by how the bump was executed, I believe the chokeslam through the cage was completely intentional.

 

A normal chokeslam would finish with Taker's opponent bumping right alongside and almost underneath Taker. The chokeslam to Foley through the cage is quite different.

 

Watch the way Taker pushes Foley forward and away from himself (Taker) with the chokeslam, seemingly to ensure Foley bumped on the section that Taker was not standing on, to ensure Taker would not go through the cage as well. Also notice that Foley's feet are on the rail as he leaves his feet for the bump, probably to further ensure he bumped on the section Taker was not standing on. Perhaps that particular section he went through was even gimmicked to give way exactly as it did, so that perhaps that had to be the section he took the chokeslam bump on.

 

Of course this conflicts with Foley's account that, sure, the bump off the cage through the announce table was planned, but the chokeslam through the cage to the ring was totally unexpected.

[fxnj]

Foley talked about that chokeslam like a week ago on wwe.com. He said the chokeslam was botched due to him somehow being unable to get enough height for the bump, meaning that was just really lucky with what ended up happening.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think it's possible that the roof segment was supposed to be gimmicked not to completely give way but to maybe sag or bend a little, so you get the chokeslam and it basically denting the roof as a visual, and thus they could break a hole in it for them to drop back down to the ring to continue the match.

 

It's probably unlikely, but they were definitely treating that particular segment of the roof differently as shown above, so something was meant to happen. But I don't know, I somehow find it hard to believe that even Foley at his most suicidal would want to be chokeslammed straight from the Cell roof to the mat. He says himself, if he'd have gone up for the chokeslam at all he'd have probably landed on his head and died. But if the plan was for him to do so (and that's what he seems to be saying with "I botched it", which he also says in his book), how did that plan involve him not dying at the end of it?

 

I dunno.

[MJH]

The key is in the chair. If the plummet was planned, I find it hard to believe that someone as poised and professional as Undertaker (which this match is the best example of, really) would leave the chair casually lying next to where Foley's crashing through - even the greenest pro-wrestlers take the time to ensure a chair is turned the right way around before hitting a guy with it, etc, Taker is dropping it somewhere out of the way. But Taker doesn't even use the chair, so why bring it over from the other side of the cell roof if it's not part of the next spot? He's clearly bringing it over with him in anticipation of something (rather than do the chokeslam spot, walk back to where he climbed up and carry it over then) and that's why he drops it close at hand.

[flyonthewall2983]

I think also if it had happened with more perilous results, would it be reaching to say that any chance of the company going public would have been in tatters?

[efrim]

I think also if it had happened with more perilous results, would it be reaching to say that any chance of the company going public would have been in tatters?

 

I really don't think its a reach to consider that. There's been so much death in and around the industry that we presume a level of numbness when we think about more, but I think someone actually dying off a stunt (or botched) bump in the middle of a major match would have a unique chilling effect. To go from entertained to seeing someone die, especially after the crazy bump Foley had already done, would instill a level of personal culpability in most viewers beyond other wrestling deaths. Footage of Owen's death never surfaced, and if it had, it wouldn't have been part of the in-the-moment viewing experience - and in any event it was a stage show element that lead to his death, not a wrestling match element.

[Russellmania]

I don't really like the comparison to the Owen death in this case. It's two totally different circumstances. The Owen thing was purely an accident during a stunt that in theory had minimal risk associated with it. People do stuff like that when mountain climbing all the time. If all the precautions are taken then that should have been a very safe stunt. Compare that to Foley getting tossed off the cage...even if everything goes perfectly, at it's core it's still a guy getting thrown to the floor from 16+ feet in the air. Even the safest version of that bump is still an inherently dangerous stunt.

 

So yeah, with the Owen thing, while there was certainly some negligence there they can rightfully argue that it was a relatively safe activity that went horribly wrong. With Foley, if he had died from either of those bumps there's no way they could have spun it as "just an accident" when even in the best circumstances those bumps had a serious chance of injury.