2014 WON Year End Awards

[KrisZ]

Yeah he smartened up on that one

[concrete1992]

Heard Dave ruled him ineligible, so I went with real rookies

Did he change the definition or just rule him ineligible? I have zero stake in the matter but a wee bit curious.

[shakla]

Here's the Dixie "storm tweet" that got runner-up for Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic:

 

[El-P]

The fact Stephy is considered the best non-wrestler talker today baffles me. Says a lot about standarts dropping off a cliff in term of promo ability (well, can we still call this "promo ability" anyway, since it's actually only bad scripts and bad acting instead of simple "wrestling promos" ?)

[Grimmas]

The fact Stephy is considered the best non-wrestler talker today baffles me. Says a lot about standarts dropping off a cliff in term of promo ability (well, can we still call this "promo ability" anyway, since it's actually only bad scripts and bad acting instead of simple "wrestling promos" ?)

History of the award:

99 Vince

00 Vince

01 Heyman

02 Heyman

03 Austin

04 Heyman

05 Bischoff

06 Cornette

07 Sweeney

08 Sweeney

09 Vickie

10 Vickie

11 Ricardo

12 Heyman

13 Heyman

14 Heyman

 

Outside of Vince which year was she not better than?

[El-P]

I think something got lost in translation here. Can you rephrase that question please, I'm not sure I understand (in case you don't know, English isn't my first language, sometimes it shows) ?

[Grimmas]

I think something got lost in translation here. Can you rephrase that question please, I'm not sure I understand (in case you don't know, English isn't my first language, sometimes it shows) ?

Sorry, my wording was clunky.

 

You said standards have dropped since Stephanie won this award. I listed the history of the award. Which winner had a better year than Stephanie's 2014?

 

I think if you put 2014 Stephanie in any of those years (minus the Vince ones) she would still win the award. That is not standards dropping.

[El-P]

You said standards have dropped since Stephanie won this award. I listed the history of the award. Which winner had a better year than Stephanie's 2014?

I think if you put 2014 Stephanie in any of those years (minus the Vince ones) she would still win the award. That is not standards dropping.

 

 

It's less a matter of winning the award than the fact she seemed to be considered as this great promo these days. I just don't see it at all.

 

As far as comparing with the winners of the other years, well, if you tell me that Stephy from 14 would have won against most of these names (Heyman excluded, I mean, for the post Mania promo alone, Heyman should be N°1), well, to me that does mean standarts have dropped. Or that she's wildly overrated. Or both.

 

I did think she did a pretty terrific job as a valet at Mania though, paying her best hommage to Woman yet. Since being a valet is a lost art, I guess that counts for something.

[Loss]

Stephanie is more considered a great character than a great promo. I mean, she is an effective talker, but it's her facial expressions, mannerisms and false sincerity that make her one of the top handful of well-rounded performers in the company. She and HHH seem more self-aware than ever, as evidenced by them making out in public all the time for heat. She also had a completely professional match with Brie Bella with better in-ring heel mannerisms than I recall seeing from anyone else all year. Everyone should be trying to emulate that sneer. She is not at the level of Vince when Vince was the best performer in his company, but she's very good.

 

As for Heyman winning, the only thing I can chalk it up to is Dave's sway over his readers. While he has given Stephanie credit as a TV performer, he has also criticized her quite a bit for talking down to everyone, not realizing that's the entire point and what gets her heat. There is also talk of her not getting comeuppance, but this year she took a bump at Wrestlemania, a big slap from Brie Bella, was arrested and was pushed into a pile of mud by the departing Vicki Guerrero. She also sold the outcome of Survivor Series brilliantly in the post-match. I guess you could say she usually gets the last laugh in the end, but that's often true of great heels. She's too valuable to blow off completely as a television character, so they sort of have to keep cycling her back. That's not to say that The Authority should last forever or that Stephanie's only role should be what it is. It's more that she should be a fixture at this point.

 

Heyman is better at wrestling promos, but he's nowhere near as effective as Stephanie is. He often gets cheered in fact, and the crowd usually sings along with his catchphrases. He did absolutely nothing for Cesaro (who was coming along much better with Zeb) and while he's been very useful as Brock's mouthpiece, I think it's inflated how much he has done for him.

 

Even Zeb Colter got Jack Swagger over for a short run as a hot babyface this year. And Lana is an extremely valuable part of Rusev's act. So the Heyman choice is a little mind-boggling to be honest.

[Bierschwale]

As for Heyman winning, the only thing I can chalk it up to is Dave's sway over his readers.

 

Can that be applied to the YBs winning best move with the stupidest looking maneuver of all time, as a weird form of ass-kissery or should I not be surprised when the Canadian Destroyer won like three years running, and the fucking Rainmaker was the two-time defending champ?

 

And Heyman is incredibly effective at getting over the only thing that he cares about getting over, which is himself.

[hammerva]

I think Heyman cuts better promos than Stephanie when they are said the first couple times. I mean the '1 behind the 1 in 1' promo after beating Taker on that RAW after WM in my opinion is the best promo of the year by a wide margin. Now Heyman did that same promo about 10 more times which does hurt it in my opinion and why I would consider Stephanie better this year.

 

Kind of confusing that we can use December 2013 in the 2014 awards but not January 2015 in the decisions. Although I have to think Nakamura won because of what happens against Ibushi at Wrestle Kingdom in January 2015.

[Grimmas]

Kind of confusing that we can use December 2013 in the 2014 awards but not January 2015 in the decisions. Although I have to think Nakamura won because of what happens against Ibushi at Wrestle Kingdom in January 2015.

Nakamura had that award wrapped up in September.

[Dylan Waco]

Heyman at his best is the best promo in wrestling. He's also one of the worst when he's at his worst. He was at his best maybe 1/3 of the time in 2014

[Parties]

Re: Steph, there's a weird true-in-fiction issue where she would be better off as a top of the card manager rather than being treated as the actual head of the company. I would love her as Seth Rollins' manager right now. I would love her as the figurehead trying to make the Divas division worthwhile. I would love her as a soap opera freak. Yet they would never do any of that, given that she's universally acknowledged as the true life VP and thus don't want to degrade her as Heyman +1. Steph is a talented performer who understands how to succeed as a heel, but that doesn't change the increasingly prevailing wisdom among fans that Heel Authority Figure is the most stale gimmick in wrestling. I do not love her constantly making everyone else on the show look inferior and lame.

 

I would absolutely agree that Zeb Colter was more effective at his task than Heyman, and that Heyman is extremely overrated at this point, despite being a great promo at times. The issue is that he's very misused and has been coasting since Brock won the title. The hypothetical Cesaro-Brock match that never happened would have been the best use of Heyman, as there were many ways to go with him, but all was lost. I would actually say that Heyman fell victim to Lesnar's schedule: he was constantly having to justify his own existence while Lesnar was off TV, stuck in a non-feud with Taker, never being built toward anything after winning the title, and stuck in a tired feud with Cena that had some good promos and the one-day reaction to Summerslam, but which ultimately tanked under more bad booking. The Authority/Rollins muddling has made it that much worse.

 

The best use of Heyman would actually be replacing Michael Cole, as a WWE version of Mike Goldberg. Play-by-Play guy who's credible enough to call the action, know his stuff, and compliment a color commentator, while still being a bit of a character in his own right.

 

On “Most Overrated”: Alvarez and Martin said on their show today that 1) they thought that Kane was a bad choice to win, and 2) that Meltzer hasn't described the criteria for the award properly. I think they're wrong on both counts, as I've heard the award described in what sounded like Meltzer's own words as the worker whose push is least warranted and/or the most disproportionate to their talent. While I understand that Kane isn't winning the world title anytime soon, he is a perennial main eventer and staple of the upper midcard, despite being the shittiest worker on Earth. On wrestling's biggest platform, no less. It's neither surprising nor unfair for Kane to win. He may or may not be who I'd have chosen (I didn't watch enough 2014 wrestling to fairly vote), but Kane was selected as Bryan's post-Mania opponent. He was the de facto guy who worked main events that were beneath HHH and Rollins. He demonstrably made several important matches worse by being in them. Picking Reigns (a pretty good worker hindered by lack of experience and horrible promos) as Most Overrated seems like smark trolling at its worst. Reigns was a valued asset in some of the best matches of the year. Forgetting how good he was in his role from December through the Shield breakup is lame.

[Strummer]

 

Re: Steph, there's a weird true-in-fiction issue where she would be better off as a top of the card manager rather than being treated as the actual head of the company. I would love her as Seth Rollins' manager right now. I would love her as the figurehead trying to make the Divas division worthwhile. I would love her as a soap opera freak. Yet they would never do any of that, given that she's universally acknowledged as the true life VP and thus don't want to degrade her as Heyman +1. Steph is a talented performer who understands how to succeed as a heel, but that doesn't change the increasingly prevailing wisdom among fans that Heel Authority Figure is the most stale gimmick in wrestling. I do not love her constantly making everyone else on the show look inferior and lame.

 

 

If they don't do Bryan v Lesnar at Mania I wouldn't be surprised if Steph managed the heel he's going up against in the match. Sheamus as a corporate turncoat comes to mind. Maybe even Big Show (not that it's a good idea or anything). I think they will want to recapture last year's build and have her involved more with Bryan than the Sting/HHH build up. If they do Bryan/Lesnar then they really should just focus on those two and not the Authority deal

[El-P]

Re: Steph, there's a weird true-in-fiction issue where she would be better off as a top of the card manager rather than being treated as the actual head of the company. I would love her as Seth Rollins' manager right now. I would love her as the figurehead trying to make the Divas division worthwhile. I would love her as a soap opera freak. Yet they would never do any of that, given that she's universally acknowledged as the true life VP and thus don't want to degrade her as Heyman +1. Steph is a talented performer who understands how to succeed as a heel, but that doesn't change the increasingly prevailing wisdom among fans that Heel Authority Figure is the most stale gimmick in wrestling. I do not love her constantly making everyone else on the show look inferior and lame.

 

Totally agree with this. The killing off of the top-of-the card managers and valets, replaced by the "heel authority figure", which is the dullest, laziest, most tired and boring cliché in pro-wrestling today, is a big detriment to the product, and Stephy has always been much better when she acted as an actual manager than when she's trying to be Mr. McMahon's daughter (well, she is, but you get my point).

[cm funk]

I should re-listen to the audio show on the awards, but Dave's fanboyism about New Japan makes for terrible listening. Even if I agreed with him I think I'd find it tough to listen to

[pol]

I should re-listen to the audio show on the awards, but Dave's fanboyism about New Japan makes for terrible listening. Even if I agreed with him I think I'd find it tough to listen to

 

Did you know that the only reason Atlantis/Guerrero, Shield/Wyatts and Bryan/Triple H made it into the top 10 matches of the year is because New Japan put on so many awesome matches that people forgot to vote for a bunch of them?

[Grimmas]

 

I should re-listen to the audio show on the awards, but Dave's fanboyism about New Japan makes for terrible listening. Even if I agreed with him I think I'd find it tough to listen to

 

Did you know that the only reason Atlantis/Guerrero, Shield/Wyatts and Bryan/Triple H made it into the top 10 matches of the year is because New Japan put on so many awesome matches that people forgot to vote for a bunch of them?

 

Pointing out the matches makes that even more insane. I had 1 match in my top 10 of 2014 from New Japan and that is not because I forgot all the other great matches, it is because they are other great matches.

[Matt D]

I have a hard time faulting Dave for being Dave. He's not some sort of omnipotent, unbiased, body. He's a wrestling fan who was so into being a wrestling fan that he created this monolithic force of opinion and reporting. At the end of the day, the WON is, was, and will always be, a well made fanzine, basically. It's one where he does good research and is somewhat tapped into the industry but it's still ultimately fan-driven. If he was unbiased, he probably would have never started to write the Observer in the first place. He made it into his livelihood. It's just that we don't have anything better given the nature of the industry we follow so we hold him to higher standards than we probably should.

[cm funk]

I generally find Dave's odd quirks charming.....but this NJPW stuff has gone way over the top. Even for "fanzine" stuff as you put it, when you're overselling something you like to the point of ridiculousness you're really doing everyone a disservice

[Grimmas]

I generally find Dave's odd quirks charming.....but this NJPW stuff has gone way over the top. Even for "fanzine" stuff as you put it, when you're overselling something you like to the point of ridiculousness you're really doing everyone a disservice

Being a fan is one thing, stated that the awards are all going to NJ because they are so great they get over looked is insane.

[Coffey]

Heyman at his best is the best promo in wrestling. He's also one of the worst when he's at his worst. He was at his best maybe 1/3 of the time in 2014

 

Paul Heyman had one of the only genuinely funny moments last year that legit made me laugh out loud at the television.

 

Heyman: "Knock, Knock."

Crowd: "Who's there?"

Heyman: "Mike."

Crowd: "Mike Who?"

Heyman: "Mike...lient Brock Lesnar conquered the undefeated... (etc.)"

 

That was gold!

[BillThompson]

 

I should re-listen to the audio show on the awards, but Dave's fanboyism about New Japan makes for terrible listening. Even if I agreed with him I think I'd find it tough to listen to

 

Did you know that the only reason Atlantis/Guerrero, Shield/Wyatts and Bryan/Triple H made it into the top 10 matches of the year is because New Japan put on so many awesome matches that people forgot to vote for a bunch of them?

 

 

This irked me, quite an obtuse stance from Dave. The thing is, I love CMLL, think they were by far the best promotion in the world in 2014, and have come to the realization that they have been for many years now. I could see a top 10 where it was nothing but CMLL matches, that would make perfect sense to me. However, when people are submitting their top 10 lists and they are full of non-CMLL matches I don't for a second think, "They must have forgotten some of the great CMLL matches, that's the only reason they have any other promotions on their list." That's silly, and when Dave does it with NJPW it shows a hubris towards the rest of the wrestling world that is hard to stomach. Dave is by all means entitled to his opinion, but the way he so easily dismisses any promotion not named NJPW and siscredits the opinions of others who may not love NJPW, it's, as previously stated, hard to stomach.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I should re-listen to the audio show on the awards, but Dave's fanboyism about New Japan makes for terrible listening. Even if I agreed with him I think I'd find it tough to listen to

 

Did you know that the only reason Atlantis/Guerrero, Shield/Wyatts and Bryan/Triple H made it into the top 10 matches of the year is because New Japan put on so many awesome matches that people forgot to vote for a bunch of them?

 

 

This irked me, quite an obtuse stance from Dave. The thing is, I love CMLL, think they were by far the best promotion in the world in 2014, and have come to the realization that they have been for many years now. I could see a top 10 where it was nothing but CMLL matches, that would make perfect sense to me. However, when people are submitting their top 10 lists and they are full of non-CMLL matches I don't for a second think, "They must have forgotten some of the great CMLL matches, that's the only reason they have any other promotions on their list." That's silly, and when Dave does it with NJPW it shows a hubris towards the rest of the wrestling world that is hard to stomach. Dave is by all means entitled to his opinion, but the way he so easily dismisses any promotion not named NJPW and siscredits the opinions of others who may not love NJPW, it's, as previously stated, hard to stomach.

 

What's even worse is that even Joe Lanza wouldn't think that. Nobody would ever have that thought, but here is the most respected reporter in wrestling saying that. It just makes everything else he says less reliable.