When did WWE commentary go to hell?

[JerryvonKramer]

Two "mark" commentators that absolutely need to be mentioned here are David Crockett and Kal Rudman.

 

Crockett adds about 25% excitement on top of any match he calls. I'll take him over a Bob Caudle any day of the week. I'll never understand why the Wrestling Observer guys hated him as much as they did.

 

Kal Rudman -- a total hero to us on Titans of Wrestling -- was a mad genius and a poet. But boy could you tell when he was into a match. I think our love of Rudman started out as a kind of toungue-in-cheek thing, but I defy anyone to watch that Slaughter vs. Backlund cage match and tell me that his call isn't genuinely amazing.

 

Both of those guys are so into what they are watching that there are times when I question if either of them ever quite knew that wrestling is a work.

[Jingus]

Everyone else mentioned the "sterile shills" atmosphere of modern commentary, so there's no need for me to belabor that. But I do think that's the biggest single overall problem with their product today. They're yammering about Twitter posts and constantly saying trademarked catchphrases and clearly faking their enthusiasm, and it's just un-listenable for the most part. They do have moments of competence, even fuckin' Cole was on fire all night long at this year's Mania, but overall it's a tough thing for me to watch without muting the damn sound.

 

For all the people saying Ross and Lawler were awful in the Attitude era: do you honestly believe that the guys who followed them were better? Jonathon Coachman, Todd Grisham, Mike Adamle, Heel Michael Cole... I mean, JESUS that's just a marathon of crap. I can't fathom imagining that any of them were better than JR and King.

 

And speaking of which, when they put Heel Coach at the desk is when the announcing really went into the shitter for me. He NEVER STOPPED TALKING, being such a spotlight-hungry motormouth that neither Lawler nor even goddamn Joey Styles could get in a word edgewise. And he never actually sold anything the babyfaces did, coming back with this smug "Oh well, it doesn't matter, I don't care, those good guys are somehow still much worse than the bad guys whom they just easily defeated". If the announcers don't care, why should the viewers?

[fakeplastictrees]

That leads into another question...when did the commentators stop giving a shit? Again I would have to say trickles began in the mid 2000's, but when did the "Fuck It!" mentality come into play. It took TNA YEARS of fucking up before Tenay stopped giving a shit. How long before Cole and company stated phoning it in. What events turned the tide? Mirco-managing can end tomorrow, but if apath remains (and I would say its at an all time)- then the bad commentary will continue.

[Mini Bennett]

Commentary went downhill when WWE decided it was more important to focus almost exclusively on the periphery stuff (storyline surrounding the match, social media) than focusing on the story in the ring and articulating that to the audience at home. So, basically when Michael Cole became the lead Play-by-Play announcer in 2008, which I think is more of a Vince/Kevin Dunn thing than it is Cole not knowing what he's doing.

 

Still don't understand the criticism towards modern JR. I genuinely enjoyed his pseudo Play-by-Play when working with Todd Grisham and heel Cole.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I think Jesse was at his best with Gorilla, by far.

[Tim Evans]

My favorite WWE announcers right now are Renee Young and Jason Albert. I know Renee annoys a lot of people but the reason I like her is cause she actually seems to like what she's calling. She's really good with Tom Phillips on Superstars. Albert is decent when he's not fighting with Alex Riley or saying "wOW" all the time. He's another one that seems to enjoy what they are calling. That's my biggest problem with the main roster announcers. Cole/JBL/Lawler seem more into the shitty inside jokes they make or yelling talking points than telling a story.

 

And to answer the question, I would say once Heyman left in 2002.

[sek69]

I think this Cole/Tenay Smackdown stuff is getting the hindsight is 20/20 treatment. I remember those guys being TERRIBLE (mainly Taz) and they brought down some really good shows and segments due to it. I think the bad commentary started when people got tired of JR/King/Heyman. JR/Heryman at points LITERALLY put me to sleep while watching Raw. JR/Heyman/King all over-stayed their welcome and that's when the product started showing signs of being stale to me. So this is mid 2000's.

 

As WWE became more and more corporate and started taking its cues from other sports congolmertes like The NBA/NFL/etc. WWE also adopted corporate commentary. What's corporate commentary? Constant social media plugs, shooting out company buzzwords whenever possible, towing the company line, adpating to all social norms and conventions (regardless of how silly it sounds) as to not piss of sponsors etc. Because of that WWE is now looking for people who can do corporate commentary which is why guys like Alex Riley, JBL, Cole, King, Saxton, and others are all at the booth in some capacity and are showing ZERO personality. None of them stand out as being good or deserving of jobs as WWE commentators. They all come off as shills and in my book the best commentators in history came off as marks.

 

Not marks in the Matt Striker "Oh My God dude! I'm marking out!" sort of way. But in the 'Does this guy know wrestling isn't real?' type of way. JR, Vince McMahon, Bobby Hennan (when he gave a shit), Don West, Mike Hogewood, Steve McMichael (YES! YOU READ THAT RIGHT), and others. These guys all came off as passionate and genuinely interested in the product. The same can be said about the PWG commentators at time (those guys are always engaging and PWG MUST be watched with commentary in my house). The current corp of WWE commentators are all shills, have no personality, and are being mirco-managed like shit. There was leaked audio from a WWE show some time ago and you can hear Cole ask Vince if Cole should say 'longest running...etc..." again as he has already said it 'a shit ton of times'. We couldn't hear Vince but we did hear Cole immediately say 'Yes sir!' and continue to repeat that pharse for the new few seconds.

 

WWE also doesn't like personality- look what happened to Abe Washington. He started getting over and had a live mic and made a funny joke and next thing you know- he was fired. WWE has stock and is a corporation. So corporate commentary is here-to-stay. I feel sorry for the kids going up thinking THIS is going commentary and these are the people they will look to mimmick if they were ever in the position to perform commentary for WWE. It's sad.

 

 

I wanted to back you up on Mongo here. Watching Nitro again and it was stunning how while, yes he's clearly dumber than a box of rocks, he has so much PASSION after years of Cole/King/JBL bantering to keep themselves from falling asleep.

[thebrainfollower]

Agree about McMichael. He's not a GOOD commentator per se but he genuinely seems to love WCW and put it over as must see TV viewing every Monday night.

[BigBadMick]

Can I ask what people thought of Foley in 2008? I enjoyed it and felt he showed potential.

 

And I wouldn't care for being over-produced either...

[fxnj]

Everyone else mentioned the "sterile shills" atmosphere of modern commentary, so there's no need for me to belabor that. But I do think that's the biggest single overall problem with their product today. They're yammering about Twitter posts and constantly saying trademarked catchphrases and clearly faking their enthusiasm, and it's just un-listenable for the most part. They do have moments of competence, even fuckin' Cole was on fire all night long at this year's Mania, but overall it's a tough thing for me to watch without muting the damn sound.

 

I think my problem with people using the "sterile shills" point as evidence of WWE commentary having gone to hell at some point is that such a claim implies things were significantly better at some point, when it's been pretty extensively argued that the prior era of Gorilla Monsoon with the commentator being all about getting themselves over was just as bad, if not worse. I mean how many wrestlers have gone and complained to Meltzer about Cole intentionally undermining the drama of their matches in the same way they would with Monsoon always burying pin attempts?

[rzombie1988]

A little in 2004-2006 with Coach on commentary, then more in 2008/2009 with Mike Adamle and then the start of heel Michael Cole, which was some of the most ear bleeding inducing stuff I've ever heard. It was literally the lowest point of commentary ever, and I've watched GLOW. I can't say JBL becoming a commentator was much better as he's totally into ripping on people, more into being right than anything else and just in general being a troll.

[Timbo Slice]

JBL had his notes prepared for the Sting debut last night and started reading off accomplishments, which is hilarious considering, you know, it was a surprise that he was coming back. That being said, he dropped Aja Kong during the Divas match and I'm pretty sure it cracked up Cole and Lawler because there was a good 15-20 seconds of silence before Cole responded.

 

Cole during the main last night was actually close to sounding like Cole at his best.

[Bierschwale]

Cole during the main last night was actually close to sounding like Cole at his best.

 

I thought that he was particularly great during the Rusev/Ziggler spot, screaming for Dolph to beat the count. The match was still at 4-on-4 at that point, it certainly wasn't at its climax. It may have been foreshadowing the finishing stretch too much in retrospect, but it put over how every elimination counted so well.

[Bigelow34]

I agree with most of the comments in here. I think Cole could be pretty good if he wasn't overproduced into trash. He gets it, he just isn't allowed to show that he gets it.

 

I really dug Foley in 2008 because it was clear how prepared he was and how seriously he took it... too bad Vince drove him out.

 

Cole & JBL were really fun in 2006-07, which makes this current JBL run disappointing. I was pumped when he came back and it has been sad to watch him dwindle to nothing over the last two years.

 

My fave all time pairings are definitely Vince & Jesse, Gorilla & Bobby and Tony & Jesse. I am a Mongo fan too... he added that sense of wonder and outsider fan view, which was fine since he was the third man in.

 

As much as I wasn't crazy about Piper all the time, I thought when he was the third man in with Gorilla and Bobby he was a good antagonist for the Brain.

[EvenStevenBooking]

 

I really dug Foley in 2008 because it was clear how prepared he was and how seriously he took it... too bad Vince drove him out.

 

Foley was trash. He probably got yelled at because he was so awful. Mocking a guy they were trying to push as a top heel by mixing up sambo with samba every time he appeared.

[Mini Bennett]

I need a little Kozlov in my life.

[Cobra Commander]

Not sure if this point has been covered but... The staged bickering of Cole/Lawler patronizing towards JBL is a highlight of how ahitty the commentary could be these days. Cole doesn't really have the gravitas to be as effective as a top PBP/face commentator. Lawler doesn't really add enough on his own and forces Cole to have to do more when it comes to arguing with JBL.

 

It's kinda like Joe Buck. Buck has his pros and cons. But he's been around and mediocre for so long that it colors perceptions of his work. Cole and Joe Buck have the personality of pancakes. If you have them in the right dosage, it's OK, if you're eating pancakes every day, you'll eventually hate pancakes

 

The WWE might need to rotate the 3 man booth a tad like during Nitros. Like don't have the same 3 guys out there for all 3 hours of the show.

 

Or maybe change up parts of the layout that have been the same for over 15 years.

[cowboy hats]

The WWE might need to rotate the 3 man booth a tad like during Nitros. Like don't have the same 3 guys out there for all 3 hours of the show.

 

 

I've been thinking about that recently. Why not throw random sport entertainers in there as relief every week or two? Well, I guess we know why, but it's a seemingly small thing that would freshen things up and give another outlet for some of the personalities.

[EvenStevenBooking]

I wonder if Lawler is so shitty these days is because he's afraid of losing his job? I know the popular story is Lawler told Vince to go fuck himself and walked off thus impressing Vince and securing his long time employment after his return. Listening to an old WON radio, Lawler actually attempted to come back fairly quickly, and during an interview with Dave, read his letter to the company on the air that was a bit embarrassing in how groveling it was. The only thing Lawler got was his official release.

 

http://youtu.be/BSw5ynuz1tQ?t=14m30s

[dgrblue]

I wonder if Lawler is so shitty these days is because he's afraid of losing his job? I know the popular story is Lawler told Vince to go fuck himself and walked off thus impressing Vince and securing his long time employment after his return. Listening to an old WON radio, Lawler actually attempted to come back fairly quickly, and during an interview with Dave, read his letter to the company on the air that was a bit embarrassing in how groveling it was. The only thing Lawler got was his official release.

 

Is that not "the way" to get over with Vince? Stand up to him, curse him out, whatever. I have heard a few instances where someone stood up to Vince, and he gets them a push, or likes them more for it.

[dgrblue]

 

 

The WWE might need to rotate the 3 man booth a tad like during Nitros. Like don't have the same 3 guys out there for all 3 hours of the show.

 

I've been thinking about that recently. Why not throw random sport entertainers in there as relief every week or two? Well, I guess we know why, but it's a seemingly small thing that would freshen things up and give another outlet for some of the personalities.

How about not doing three hours, two is probably nice balance. 86 Michael Cole!

[EvenStevenBooking]

It supposedly is and that's what Lawler is credited for allegedly doing, but I was saying that it wasn't happened. It doesn't seem to be "Vince respects Lawler too much to fire him," but instead "Lawler lost his job once and doesn't want to lose it again hence becoming so bland and corporate robot-like."

[flyonthewall2983]

I'd argue that he pretty much went with whatever the company threw at him and performed the role he was asked to play throughout his time there. Whatever sense of individuality Ventura and Heenan before him brought to the table, wasn't there as much with Lawler. It's not to say he wasn't entertaining, but that he co-opted into a style that was more of McMahon's creation than his own. Bobby and Jesse told things from a strong heel perspective, but would give faces their due or point out if a heel screwed something up. Lawler removed that middle ground completely from his announcing up until he started coming into his own with Jim Ross.

[Timbo Slice]

It looks like the common theme here is Ross. Go figure.

[flyonthewall2983]

Not with me. He never had a better broadcast partner in WWE than Lawler, and that goes the other way too. They had a chemistry that rivaled Monsoon and Heenan or Ventura and McMahon, but you can tell they had a rapport that went beyond just being professional.