Women's wrestling, could it ever be successful in the US?

[Grimmas]

After the WWE did another bad decision on Monday with Charlotte I started wondering about women's wrestling in the States.

 

All Japan Women had a huge run in Japan. The women in UFC have done huge business too.

 

So, will any American company utilize women in a proper way? Can a company focusing on Women be successful, ala Lucha Underground or something? Will the WWE ever push women in a prominent spot?

Is this business in America just too sexist or what are your thoughts on this?

[kjh]

I think there's been times when both WWE and TNA used women pretty well, but they never built on that initial success. I'm not sure it's all sexism (although that definitely plays a part), but also politics, as people will inevitably want to tear down other people's success. I mean both WWE and TNA have women in key power positions.

[BillThompson]

I don' think so, at least not in the WWE. Were a group like a Shimmer, or even WWN to make it bigger then maybe they would get somewhat of a fair shake. I'm not usually one to copy and paste, but I left a reply at another forum about whether or not women in the WWE have it worse off than they have in the past, I said yes, and since my long response ties into this topic I'll leave my reasoning here,

 

There are a few issues at play here, and in the end I actually think the women workers of today do have it worse off than those who came before.

--The diva label is a ludicrously demeaning one. They should be presented as wrestlers, simple as that. Calling them divas brings a very negative connotation into play. Basically, "Oh, these aren't wrestlers or entertainers, they are bitchy women, and that's why you want to watch them." Perhaps this is true of some fans, but that's not the case with me and the label of diva is a constant source of head shaking for me.

--The roster is more talented than it ever has been. This is a double edged sword though, because all the talent in the world doesn't matter when talent is still asked to go out and compete in sub-2 minute comedy matches. With Emma, AJ Lee, Paige, Alicia Fox, Natalya, Charlotte, Sasha Banks, Becky Lynch, Alexa Bliss, and Bayley they have the best working roster they've ever had. Those women can put on good to great matches on a regular basis, if they are given the chance. They aren't given that chance though, and that makes their treatment all the more glaringly worse than those in years past.

--There is no longer a clear demarcation between wrestler and manager/valet. Lana seems to be one of the only ones so far who they feel comfortable keeping exclusively as a manager. The fact is that more of the women should be kept in that role. Layla and Brie Bella, for example, have shown that they will never be competent workers. There's no shame in not being a good worker, but when those who are not good workers are forced into the role of a worker it makes the division far weaker. Of course there always needs to be room for upwards mobility. Nikki Bella has worked pretty darn hard and I'd now consider her to be a decent worker. Same goes for Summer Rae, and there's no reason that a female wrestler can't improve her skills to the point where they become a wrestler instead of just a manager.

--NXT creates lots of problems just by its very existence. It shows us how talented some of the women have become. We get to see them in matches ranging from 2 minutes to fifteen minutes or more, and we see them excel in those matches. We also see them screw up, which helps to make them seem no different than the men. Not every women's match is going to be good, but NXT gives the viewer the chance to see that the women are capable of both good and bad. Then one moves up to the WWE main roster where all of the work NXT did to give the women legitimacy is removed from the equation. They are put into programs with non-workers. They are relegated to the time wasting slot on the card, and are given very little time to show their wares. In NXT we get women who can wrestle and show us as such. In WWE we get some women who can wrestle, and they aren't allowed to show us that they can in fact wrestle.

--Sara del Ray is a fantastic wrestler, and by all accounts a great trainer. All of her work is for naught when the women move up to the main roster and everything that del Ray has taught them is put on the backburner for them engaging in pillow fights. Del Ray has shown a knack for planning out women's matches, but once the women reach the main roster they have agents planning their matches who don't really care for how the women look, as long as the male audience thinks they're hot.

--Lastly, the women of today are still hurt by the way WWE tries to use their sex appeal and femininity. A woman can be hot and a tough as nails ass kicker. In NXT this dichotomy is presented all the time. In WWE the focus is heavily on sexiness and femininity, so much so that the women are presented not as wrestlers but as hot chicks who happen to step into a ring every once in a while. Alicia Fox's ability to hit a picture perfect Northern Lights Suplex isn't talked about, but her ability to fill out a bikini sure as heck is. Women can have both, but those running WWE, read Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn, simply don't agree with this.

To surmise my long winded post; the women in the WWE have never been better talent wise. At the same time they are presented just as awfully as women in the past. The fact that we know how good they now can be and know that they aren't allowed to show this on the main roster is why I think the women of today do have it worse than the women of the past.

[DR Ackermann]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but diva is not a demeaning term. People may interpret it that way, but it comes from the opera world and originally means goddess in Latin.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

It's still condescending though. Why can't they just be women? Why can't the men just be men, for that matter, instead of Superstars?

[BillThompson]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but diva is not a demeaning term. People may interpret it that way, but it comes from the opera world and originally means goddess in Latin.

 

In the context that WWE is using it I think it is a demeaning term. They aren't referring to them as goddesses, but rather as bitchy entitled women.

[PhilTLL]

Really? I always took it as somewhat of a nod to VH1 Divas. They've been calling them divas since before the Real Housewives/Bridezillas era in pop culture. Sable was the first one to use it, says Wikipedia, and she was supposed to be (I know, I know) an empowered face shaking off her misogynist husband. But it's become muddled with Total Divas.

[MJH]

I absolutely think it could be successful, but it'll require several super talents. What turned Dana's mind on women? The fact that Rousey is marketable as hell and every bit as talented. If Paige and AJ Lee, for example, went out there with their eight-minutes of a PPV and were consistently working at a higher level than the best male talent, let's say Benoit's WCW debut vs. Eddy level in terms of a perfect sub ten minute match (and Eddy's whiffed-619 aside those guys were mechanically leaps and bounds ahead of anyone on the roster right now) they wouldn't be working the merch/beer/piss-break spot for very long. Or if Alicia Fox could promo like Dusty Rhodes, ditto. But I'm yet to see an American women's wrestler I'd go anywhere close to "great" in describing, and it would need at least one all-time-great plus a handful of girls who could keep up to make it happen.

[sek69]

I've always got the impression that Vince still harbors bad feelings over the Sable era where women dared to use the fame they got from being in the WWF/E, and that seemed to come to a head when Stacy Keibler became a bigger star by being on Dancing With The Stars. Ever since then it seems the women have been booked in a way that ensures they don't get to be bigger stars than WWE wants them to be.

[iamthedoctor]

I thought it was sucessful? Its called Shimmer & WSU.

 

I do miss the days of when WWE actually had talented women in the fed when they had gals from Japan.

[funkdoc]

as you might expect, i mostly agree with bill here. as far as "diva" goes, my take is that pro wrestling is presented as a sporting event of sorts, and that word has long been used with a hugely negative connotation in sports; it tends to refer to male athletes who are perceived as selfish or "soft".

 

i think women's wrestling can work, but the best chance for that would be to actually write for a female audience. that's quite a change from writing for your typical wrestling audience, given the difference in life experiences and such, so i wouldn't expect it from WWE.

 

basically i think a women's wrestling promotion today should aim for a "modern roller derby" kind of vibe, given how successful that's become over the past decade...still have goofy gimmicks & outfits but play up your wrestlers as serious athletes and bring up elements of their lives outside of wrestling. whenever you see articles about roller derby they always mention how a team has professors & harvard-grad lawyers or what have you.

[BillThompson]

I thought it was sucessful? Its called Shimmer & WSU.

 

I do miss the days of when WWE actually had talented women in the fed when they had gals from Japan.

 

Talent is subjective, and I'll say that right now there are plenty of talented women in the WWE. The problem isn't really talent, it's in how they're being used. You take the male roster and tell them they can go out week after week and only have matches around 3-5 minutes, and they'd be in the same spot.

[NintendoLogic]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only way women's wrestling will draw money in the US is by going the 80s AJW route and marketing to teenage girls.

[fxnj]

The topic title is wrong. Womens wrestling is already very successful in the US if you just look at a typical Raw quarterly breakdown and see divas segments are typically among the highest rated.

[fakeplastictrees]

I find this statement interesting:

 

NXT creates lots of problems just by its very existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is complicated. There are so many levels to this. In short: no.

 

I believe a lot of online interest in women's pro wrestling is fake. Plain and simple. The guys calling for Divas to headline Mania are the same guys using the Raw/Smackdown Diva match as a bathroom break/time to get something to eat/time to hit the merch table. People believe that being an online cheerleader for women's wrestling makes you appear smart. It makes you appear hip and in-the-know. Mainstream U.S. wrestling has produced such a questionably-childish product for decades that fans feel they need to jusitify themselves not only to outsider-but to fans as well. People are so quick to point out that they KNOW its a work, etc. and it leads to a level of being jaded that few ever get to snap out of entirely. The love of women's wrestling factors into this jaded thinking in an interesting love (while online) and hate (in real life) relationship.

 

I was on the WWE forums one day and people kept dropping the name SHIMMER in WWE Divas conversations. So one of the posters (who at the time was a die hard SHIMMER fan) started calling people out on their supposed knowledge of SHIMMER. Lo-and-behold, NOT ONE PERSON knew anything outside of the results posted online. People were asked detailed questions (i.e. what happened after the match, etc.) that could only be attained by doing some SUPER digging or by simply watching the match. People were faking interest and knowledge in the product just to seem cool, progressive, or whatever. Its like reading the cliff notes to Jack London's Sea Wolf and trying to pass it off as if you read it and come off as college educated while doing so.

 

The market isn't there. It's great to write about online to get yourself over- but at the end of the day- no one wants to see Brie Bella and Emma main-event WrestleMania. No one wants to see TNA's Havok vs. Velvet Sky in a 20 minute match at Slammiversary. When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

[Grimmas]

I find this statement interesting:

 

NXT creates lots of problems just by its very existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is complicated. There are so many levels to this. In short: no.

 

I believe a lot of online interest in women's pro wrestling is fake. Plain and simple. The guys calling for Divas to headline Mania are the same guys using the Raw/Smackdown Diva match as a bathroom break/time to get something to eat/time to hit the merch table. People believe that being an online cheerleader for women's wrestling makes you appear smart. It makes you appear hip and in-the-know. Mainstream U.S. wrestling has produced such a questionably-childish product for decades that fans feel they need to jusitify themselves not only to outsider-but to fans as well. People are so quick to point out that they KNOW its a work, etc. and it leads to a level of being jaded that few ever get to snap out of entirely. The love of women's wrestling factors into this jaded thinking in an interesting love (while online) and hate (in real life) relationship.

 

I was on the WWE forums one day and people kept dropping the name SHIMMER in WWE Divas conversations. So one of the posters (who at the time was a die hard SHIMMER fan) started calling people out on their supposed knowledge of SHIMMER. Lo-and-behold, NOT ONE PERSON knew anything outside of the results posted online. People were asked detailed questions (i.e. what happened after the match, etc.) that could only be attained by doing some SUPER digging or by simply watching the match. People were faking interest and knowledge in the product just to seem cool, progressive, or whatever. Its like reading the cliff notes to Jack London's Sea Wolf and trying to pass it off as if you read it and come off as college educated while doing so.

 

The market isn't there. It's great to write about online to get yourself over- but at the end of the day- no one wants to see Brie Bella and Emma main-event WrestleMania. No one wants to see TNA's Havok vs. Velvet Sky in a 20 minute match at Slammiversary. When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

Nobody wants to see it, because nobody has promoted it right. UFC did it, AJW did it. Simply dismissing women's wrestling because it's poorly presented is a werid argument to make.

 

By the way I was pretty pumped for Emma-Paige and Natalya-Charlotte.

[NintendoLogic]

When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

 

Trish/Mickie at WM22.

[fakeplastictrees]

 

I find this statement interesting:

 

NXT creates lots of problems just by its very existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is complicated. There are so many levels to this. In short: no.

 

I believe a lot of online interest in women's pro wrestling is fake. Plain and simple. The guys calling for Divas to headline Mania are the same guys using the Raw/Smackdown Diva match as a bathroom break/time to get something to eat/time to hit the merch table. People believe that being an online cheerleader for women's wrestling makes you appear smart. It makes you appear hip and in-the-know. Mainstream U.S. wrestling has produced such a questionably-childish product for decades that fans feel they need to jusitify themselves not only to outsider-but to fans as well. People are so quick to point out that they KNOW its a work, etc. and it leads to a level of being jaded that few ever get to snap out of entirely. The love of women's wrestling factors into this jaded thinking in an interesting love (while online) and hate (in real life) relationship.

 

I was on the WWE forums one day and people kept dropping the name SHIMMER in WWE Divas conversations. So one of the posters (who at the time was a die hard SHIMMER fan) started calling people out on their supposed knowledge of SHIMMER. Lo-and-behold, NOT ONE PERSON knew anything outside of the results posted online. People were asked detailed questions (i.e. what happened after the match, etc.) that could only be attained by doing some SUPER digging or by simply watching the match. People were faking interest and knowledge in the product just to seem cool, progressive, or whatever. Its like reading the cliff notes to Jack London's Sea Wolf and trying to pass it off as if you read it and come off as college educated while doing so.

 

The market isn't there. It's great to write about online to get yourself over- but at the end of the day- no one wants to see Brie Bella and Emma main-event WrestleMania. No one wants to see TNA's Havok vs. Velvet Sky in a 20 minute match at Slammiversary. When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

Nobody wants to see it, because nobody has promoted it right. UFC did it, AJW did it. Simply dismissing women's wrestling because it's poorly presented is a werid argument to make.

 

By the way I was pretty pumped for Emma-Paige and Natalya-Charlotte.

 

 

 

I don't think that's true. I don't think people want to see it because the male alternative is simply better. Women can have good matches and they do. There are good workers in WWE, TNA, etc. However, at the end of the day the bad outweighs the good and regardless of the platform they are given- women's wrestling will not take off. People talking about women in the UFC, but the thing is that is all because of Rousey and nothing more. If Ronda never decided to get in the game all of these UFC girls would be fighting in Invicta for pennies. Wrestling needs a Rousey. Someone who comes off as straight up legit and badass that even the guys can't dis-credit her. Kong had that presence about her but did not have the sex appeal. We can't sweep sex appeal under-the-rug and pretend its not import. It is.

[sek69]

WWE has the advantage that they could create their own Rousey if they wanted to. They could easily take someone like Nattie and make her a submission bad ass. Would it work? Maybe, maybe not. The issue is they barely have the attention span to book beyond the next John Cena feud so the whole women's division would have to work hard just to be at the level of an afterthought.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only way women's wrestling will draw money in the US is by going the 80s AJW route and marketing to teenage girls.

Yup, and proof is how AJ was really getting a following last year of teenage girls. They were dressing like her and shit. And it was during her heel run. There were girls in the crowd identifying with her and they didn't really do anything . She's a face now who still acts the same which is great, actually. But if they just had her acknowledge that she had her followers who are inspired by her it'd be the thing that got her even more over.

[fakeplastictrees]

Rousey, to a lot of people, made WMMA feel legit. WMMA is filled with questionable striking games and padded records. Rousey transcended WMMA and people consider her one of the best fighters in UFC. Not only one of the best WMMA fighters, but one of the best fighters in the company. There is no female wrestler currently employed by WWE that I honestly feel is better than Cena, Harper, Henry, Bryan or Cesaro. There is none that are even close. Which Diva/Knockout/whatever changes the paradigm and makes you believe that she could stand toe-to-toe with Cena and it be a good match? Women don't have any credibility in the world of pro wrestling outside of their own bubble. There have been wrinkles in time, but nothing more.

 

So what do I think would need to happen? There will need to be a company like O (a woman's network) behind a company with the lead of someone like Scott Coker with a roster consisting of Sarah Stock, Awesome Kong, Gail Kim, Cheerleader Melissa, Shantelle Malawski, etc. This company will need to have Spike TV/TNA level of commitment and the major company backing this new wrestling company must know that this will be a 10 year thing. Characters like NXT's Bayley is a must. AJ Lee is a must. The Brie Mode shit (as much as I hate it) is OVER with the women and so is Total Divas. This is what the promotion will need to tap into.

 

This promotion cannot be the WNBA to the NBA. People like to see dunks and amazing shit that never happens (and in some cases can't happen) in The WNBA. This means that this all female promotion must have cage matches, ladder matches, 20 minutes mainevents, serious workrate, etc. Every woman from top-to-bottom should be a good worker. If the company wants to hire The Lacey Von Erichs, then that is fine as all as they are kept completely out-of-the-ring and kept in a position that better suits them (ring announcer, backstage interview, manager, time keeper, etc.).

 

The promotion must be booked toward women and be progressive. Romance and mystery novels are big with women. Women love Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, The L Word, etc. All of this should be incorporated into the promotion. Save the fart jokes and lame comedy for WWE. Toss in some relevant female personalities doing bumpers for this promotion and credible commentators (someone like Marloes Coenen and Ivory [ I am pulling at straws here- but you know what I mean] ), and this promotion would be off to a pretty strong start. But this promotion will need to truly be pioneering not only in the front, but in the back. Majority women writing staff, A female director, A female lead in merchandises, etc. Just typing all of this has gotten me excited thinking of all the possibilities of a project like this getting off the ground.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I find this statement interesting:

 

NXT creates lots of problems just by its very existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is complicated. There are so many levels to this. In short: no.

 

I believe a lot of online interest in women's pro wrestling is fake. Plain and simple. The guys calling for Divas to headline Mania are the same guys using the Raw/Smackdown Diva match as a bathroom break/time to get something to eat/time to hit the merch table. People believe that being an online cheerleader for women's wrestling makes you appear smart. It makes you appear hip and in-the-know. Mainstream U.S. wrestling has produced such a questionably-childish product for decades that fans feel they need to jusitify themselves not only to outsider-but to fans as well. People are so quick to point out that they KNOW its a work, etc. and it leads to a level of being jaded that few ever get to snap out of entirely. The love of women's wrestling factors into this jaded thinking in an interesting love (while online) and hate (in real life) relationship.

 

I was on the WWE forums one day and people kept dropping the name SHIMMER in WWE Divas conversations. So one of the posters (who at the time was a die hard SHIMMER fan) started calling people out on their supposed knowledge of SHIMMER. Lo-and-behold, NOT ONE PERSON knew anything outside of the results posted online. People were asked detailed questions (i.e. what happened after the match, etc.) that could only be attained by doing some SUPER digging or by simply watching the match. People were faking interest and knowledge in the product just to seem cool, progressive, or whatever. Its like reading the cliff notes to Jack London's Sea Wolf and trying to pass it off as if you read it and come off as college educated while doing so.

 

The market isn't there. It's great to write about online to get yourself over- but at the end of the day- no one wants to see Brie Bella and Emma main-event WrestleMania. No one wants to see TNA's Havok vs. Velvet Sky in a 20 minute match at Slammiversary. When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

Nobody wants to see it, because nobody has promoted it right. UFC did it, AJW did it. Simply dismissing women's wrestling because it's poorly presented is a werid argument to make.

 

By the way I was pretty pumped for Emma-Paige and Natalya-Charlotte.

 

 

 

I don't think that's true. I don't think people want to see it because the male alternative is simply better. Women can have good matches and they do. There are good workers in WWE, TNA, etc. However, at the end of the day the bad outweighs the good and regardless of the platform they are given- women's wrestling will not take off. People talking about women in the UFC, but the thing is that is all because of Rousey and nothing more. If Ronda never decided to get in the game all of these UFC girls would be fighting in Invicta for pennies. Wrestling needs a Rousey. Someone who comes off as straight up legit and badass that even the guys can't dis-credit her. Kong had that presence about her but did not have the sex appeal. We can't sweep sex appeal under-the-rug and pretend its not import. It is.

 

AJW women in the 90's proved women were on par with men in the ring.

[fakeplastictrees]

But what about now? In 21st century America is there another who you can honestly say could give us a WM main event without tons of gimmicks involved? I'm talk about a straight up 20 minute match that works on all levels and that people would walk away from saying - "Damn I am glad I stuck around after HHH/Sting, Brock/Reigns, and Taker's retirement match to see that main event!"? I can't think of anyone.

[Grimmas]

But what about now? In 21st century America is there another who you can honestly say could give us a WM main event without tons of gimmicks involved? I'm talk about a straight up 20 minute match that works on all levels and that people would walk away from saying - "Damn I am glad I stuck around after HHH/Sting, Brock/Reigns, and Taker's retirement match to see that main event!"? I can't think of anyone.

Completely not the point. In 5 years, of trying hard maybe? You seem fixated on today, it will take years to undo this damage.

 

If you push these women has big stars and give them relevant spots on the card with time, why can't a women's match headline a ppv? Obviously WrestleMania should be headlined by the title match, but why can't Night of Champions be headlined by a Divas Title match?

 

Brie-Steph was as close as we got, and even still Brie was never pushed as a big star equal to any other guy, she was still lesser.

 

At least they are doing two women's matches on the show.

[El McKell]

Alicia Fox's ability to hit a picture perfect Northern Lights Suplex isn't talked about, but her ability to fill out a bikini sure as heck is.

Nobody talks about either of these things. The announcers just spend women's matches making jokes or trying to promote Total Divas.

 

But other than this point I agree with almost everything Bill said.

 

The topic title is wrong. Womens wrestling is already very successful in the US if you just look at a typical Raw quarterly breakdown and see divas segments are typically among the highest rated.

This is the opposite of true.