Rusev

[kjh]

"WWE mark" is the perfect description of someone who regularly criticises WWE booking, who has called Triple H "the great Satan", who broke the news that WWE told Rey Mysterio that they wouldn't pay for any future surgeries of his if he returned to work, who watches more non-WWE wrestling than 99% of fans, etc. I mean if you're going to throw insults around at least try to make them accurate.

 

As long as Vince McMahon promotes WWE, there will always be dated ethnic stereotypes and jingoistic storylines all over WWE programming, which at this point I think is ridiculous to get too offended about unless they cross the line from crass to completely insensitive. That said, there is a question of how wise this strategy really is for an international promotion in 2015, where wrestling is more popular with African Americans and Hispanics in their home market. Telling an unsophisticated American morality tale was fine in the mid 1980s when Vince ran nationally. It's a bit shortsighted in 2015 when half your business comes from other countries.

[Coffey]

If a thread in Rusev results in people getting banned on a message forum, does that make him a heel or a face? What if the people banned lived in America? Outside of the United States?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

 

(insulting people personally has nothing to do with Rusev, the booking, his character or this discussion)

[anarchistxx]

Why should anyone get banned? I called 'Steenelized' a moron because he posted a moronic, ridiculous statement that every single country in the world wants to wave a military dick around and find a hostile enemy to bomb every couple of months as a justification for this storyline. Which proves he is either crazy or has zero knowledge of any country outside of the United States.

 

Might have been misguided calling Dylan a WWE mark - was just going on evidence of a decade of watching him board where he regularly goes to bat for WWE workers and matches, especially in the last few years.

 

When people start defending a character like Rusev along the lines of 'Well, WWE has always been backwards and racist so they can present as much dated, casually xenophobic television as they want' there is zero point in it continuing anyway.

[Shining Wiz]

1. Herodes says smart things.

2. Anarchistxx thinks he says smart things.

 

As a non-American, when you watch Rusev angles, it's really hard to tell who is the bad guy and who is the good guy in them. They went a touch over the top a couple of times - I believe there was a reference to the plane being shot down in the Ukraine, Rusev saying America will die - but by WWE standards they were rather reserved with him. They lost me a touch when it turned away from "Putin loves Rusev" to more 1980's cold warish stuff - which is more a case of how Cena presented the build to the Mania match than anything Rusev did - but as soon as Rusev is in the ring, I'm sold. I think he has the potential to be the best 300 pounder since probably Vader. He's uniquely athletic with a different background than most guys have and managed to escape the cookie cutter mold that most new faces are cut from. On top of that, as has been mentioned by others, he does a ton of little things to bring the crowd into his matches and make them more than just athletic spectacles. The guy gets it, and he is one of the few who has the ability to take a random pairing of a match or a feud and make it work. I hope he survives the inevitable slide down the card, and that he doesn't slide far before bouncing back up.

 

As for the comment that "EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" gets into yelling matches every couple of months, that's 1) not what Steenalized typed, and 2) a really weird mole hill to build your opinion of his understanding of international politics or wrestling.

[anarchistxx]

 

As for the comment that "EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" gets into yelling matches every couple of months, that's 1) not what Steenalized typed,

 

Here is what he typed:

 

every two years we have this massive international dickwaving contest were basically EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD treats the other as a hostile enemy

 

You are correct - he left 'single' out.

[Steenalized]

Way to leave out the modifier of "basically" and way to not understand the nationalistic fervor that the Olympics generates the world over, let alone other international competitions.

[anarchistxx]

The 'nationalistic fervour' generated by competitive sport has nothing to do with the booking of Rusev - just because an international athletics event is occuring the press and media don't suddenly start spouting offensive, outdated stereotypes about entire nations of people. Not in 99% of countries anyway. The USA is probably one of the most patrotic/nationalistic/culturally insular countries in the world, so perhaps it happens there.

 

Not even sure why this argument blew up. My only points were that Rusev was overrated as a worker, reductive as a character, fairly backwards and xenophobic in terms of presentation, not as over as people think he is (since the gimmick relies on cheap heat) and with a limited future without further character developement. People responded saying they believe he is a fantastic worker who is incredibly over. Nobody is going to be converted either way, which renders any further discussion pointless. Especially when people start to justify the archaic, casually racist attitudes in modern WWE and say they should get a free pass because the wrestling industry is notoriously sleazy and backwards.

[Matt D]

I was in the UK during the Euros back in 04 and it amazed me how every car you'd see on the street had a flag attached to it, which is something I only saw in the US immediately after 9/11.

[Dylan Waco]

Would prefer that any discussion of Fiji's foreign policy not take place on this board, at least not in the micro sense. PWO and all.

 

On me as a WWE mark...aside from someone like El-P who admits himself that he has little use for any modern WWE product up front, you'd be hard pressed to find someone more critical of the last year or so of WWE television than me. I get that not everyone listens to the reaction shows, but it's almost become an expectation that Johnny will come on the podcast to defend a show, and I will come on to bury it. On top of what kjh mentioned, I publicly called for people to get rid of their subscriptions and pirate WWE content after the bait and switch on Rollins/Ambrose last year. I've also almost always been the most negative of negative people on things like this years Royal Rumble match, the Punk/Ryback HITC bullshit cop out of finish from a couple of years back, and the depiction of black talent in the WWE. So to say I'm a WWE mark - which implies that I am some sort of apologist for the WWE product - is absolutely insane.

 

Having said that, I will defend anarchist depiction of me in one sense - I like what I like and will publicly say so. I also watch tons of wrestling, including the majority of WWE tv over the course of the year. For that reason there are generally a lot of WWE matches and workers I am high on (though last year may have been a low in that regard, if we are looking at recent history exclusively). I have in fact said that WWE produces more televised quality in ring matches at this juncture in its history than any other promotion in wrestling history, and generally speaking I stand by that.

 

But that doesn't mean I'm a "WWE mark." It just means I'm not a caricature, and if I like something I'll say so, and if I think something sucks I'll say so.

[BillThompson]

Not even sure why this argument blew up.

 

Because you're fond of insulting other posters, calling them marks, morons, and the such. But, mostly because you aren't interested in a discussion, but rather an argument where you have to be proven right and no point other than your own can even be considered. It's boring and repetitive, please move on.

[Steenalized]

Given that last post, he makes for a good board Rusev too.

[Shining Wiz]

Way to leave out the modifier of "basically"

 

At least you caught my point.

 

 

I don't think there's much more constructive to add to this discussion, though I will say the characterization of Dylan as being a "WWE mark" insinuating he'll polish their apples no matter what is going on is hilarious. I think a whole lot of people disagree with Dylan on a whole lot of things, but the last thing he should be insinuated to be is a shill for anything (save perhaps pro wrestling generally).

 

Back on topic - Rusev is one of the best newcomers they've had in a while. There is a solid, skilled base of under 35 wrestlers in the WWE right now, and more just about ready in NXT, and if they're willing to pull the trigger on Rusev (though it could be argued that given his placement over the past year that they have) and a few others we may very well hit a few years of fresh, interesting product. I think this is where being a publically traded company accountable to shareholders is a big detriment to the shows, but that's a discussion for another time (which is probably in the past, but whatever).

[Steenalized]

I meant that for anarchist, not you, apologies. He did include the word basically, but not as part of his all-caps emphasis.

[Dylan Waco]

The publicly traded company issue is huge. I've pushed it before, but I think it has destroyed the WWE more than anything else.

[Steenalized]

Everyone says that, I don't know how true it is. From what I understand, those public shares have next to no voting power compared to Vince thanks to the different classes of stock. They have to do things like report to the SEC and other formalities that they wouldn't if the WWE was solely privately held, but given how legally almost all the power is still with Vince, the whole stock price fluctuation and company market cap seems like dick waving more than anything. I do agree with you on a point you raised before, however, that since it is a corporation, it is prone to bloating and bureaucracy, like the ever growing size of the writing team.

[Grimmas]

Everyone says that, I don't know how true it is. From what I understand, those public shares have next to no voting power compared to Vince thanks to the different classes of stock. They have to do things like report to the SEC and other formalities that they wouldn't if the WWE was solely privately held, but given how legally almost all the power is still with Vince, the whole stock price fluctuation and company market cap seems like dick waving more than anything. I do agree with you on a point you raised before, however, that since it is a corporation, it is prone to bloating and bureaucracy, like the ever growing size of the writing team.

I think Dylan is saying as an artistic product. Removing blood, being PG, having to have all these returns and swervers, etc.. to meet financial goals and keep everyone happy.

[Shining Wiz]

Everyone says that, I don't know how true it is. From what I understand, those public shares have next to no voting power compared to Vince thanks to the different classes of stock. They have to do things like report to the SEC and other formalities that they wouldn't if the WWE was solely privately held, but given how legally almost all the power is still with Vince, the whole stock price fluctuation and company market cap seems like dick waving more than anything. I do agree with you on a point you raised before, however, that since it is a corporation, it is prone to bloating and bureaucracy, like the ever growing size of the writing team.

 

I knew you were referring to anarchist previously..sorry for being unclear.

 

The problem with being publicly traded isn't that shareholders can vote, it's that having to report the financials every quarter is a killer.

 

Say you want to turn Cena heel.....you know you'll take a short term hit on March, but also know that a year from now at Mania 32, Cena vs whoever could do HUGE business. The quarterly reports make the merch issue bigger than the long term vision. Add in that have to avoid controversial story lines, which is often the best way to get some eyes on the product and build to something. But when controversy literally costs you millions in stock drops, it's not worth it. So you end up with a milquetoast company.

[Steenalized]

Right, but I don't know if the move to PG is really a function of it being a publically traded company as much of it being a large company in need of multiple revenue streams. Even if Vince was 100% the owner of all stock, he still needs ad revenue in this day and age (or needs a TV partner to pay him rights fees who then recoup that through ad revenue). PG was the step to take there because of revenue concerns, not corporate concerns, per se. You saw that happening more than a few times in the territory days too where promotions lost sponsors or TV outright because of blood, language, etc.

 

The problem with being publicly traded isn't that shareholders can vote, it's that having to report the financials every quarter is a killer.

 

Those are killer to the extent that it can lead to ousting current management because of bad performance. The idea is that if XYZ corp has a shitty quarter or year, they need to shake things up because otherwise the voting shareholders are going to start putting new people in. I'm not certain that the WWE shareholders really have that power, which means the fear shouldn't exist. The financial reporting requirements might be embarrassing, sure, and a legal requirement as a cost of doing business for all that capital they took in, but depending on the corporate structure/stock structure, I think that the fear of unprofitability is overblown.

 

EDIT: I will add that the WWE's valuation and stock value are important to the McMahons in the extent that they can leverage them either through selling shares, like Steph did for whatever she was buying (a new house?) and for loans for expenses.

[kjh]

I think WWE would have moved back to PG even if they were a private company, because the move to PG was more about washing out the bad taste of the Benoit scandal than appealing to their investors.

[dawho5]

It seemed like the WWE's stock price going down had some effect on their TV negotiations as well IIRC. I imagine for any publicly traded company stock price and quarterly financials say a lot to any companies that are working with it in any capacity about how said company is doing. Are advertisers going to stick around for two or three bad quarters if the payoff is big come Mania?

[anarchistxx]

 

Not even sure why this argument blew up.

 

Because you're fond of insulting other posters, calling them marks, morons, and the such.

 

 

'Mark' wasn't an insult - it was merely used to suggest that Dylan might not be completely impartial when discussing WWE, as he often goes strongly to bat for WWE workers who to me are pretty mediocre [Damien Sandow IIRC], and watches almost everything the promotion puts out. Someone who consumes the entirety of the product and is a loyal viewer regardless of quality is probably going to be less impartial than someone who flits and is more critical of the product.

 

He answered it with an eloquent and considerate post above.

 

The product being PG and publicly traded to me isn't as relevant as the total lack of creativity. The problem being that they are presenting the product almost identically to when it was Non-PG, just without the blood, risque angles and violence. You can make a very interesting, watchable product within the constraints of being a publicly traded company, it just requires some kind of vision and a commitment to innovate and try new things. The production, presentation and direction has been stagnant for far too long. The downside of a loyal, committed fanbase is the product becoming safe and stale.

[Grimmas]

Wow people are really harping on the PG point of my post and ignoring the rest. Ignore the PG part it was a small mention of the big picture.

[DMJ]

Shifting the conversation back to Rusev, I'm kind of interested in the back-and-forth over whether Rusev is underrated/overrated as an in-ring worker.

 

I haven't seen *every* match of his or anything, but I thought his bout with Big Show at Hell In The Cell 2014 was probably the best Big Show match in a number of years. I also thought his Network special matches with Big E. and Swagger were career highlights for those two. Throw in his matches with Cena, which I enjoyed, and, in terms of consistency, Rusev has a really strong body of work already. I don't think he's wrestled any masterpiece yet, but I also haven't seen him wrestle a dud and, for a rookie, that's very promising. Gimmick aside, if the WWE fails to find a way to keep him relevant and fresh, they're missing out on a guy that shouldn't be too hard to keep as a threat in upper mid card for years to come (in the vein of Umaga, for example).

[Strand Peanut]

If you had to pick a new opponent for Rusev right now who would it be?

 

Would Sami Zayn work or does that kill Sami right away?

Dean Ambrose. You get a "closer-to-truth" Rocky dynamic.. and the ability to pivot the feud if you involve Renee Young as a balance for Lana.

 

The styles contrast may be interesting in the ring as well.

 

But the idea of pairing up two young couples, both relatively new to pro wrestling, would be appealing to me.

[Coffey]

 

If you had to pick a new opponent for Rusev right now who would it be?

 

Would Sami Zayn work or does that kill Sami right away?

Dean Ambrose. You get a "closer-to-truth" Rocky dynamic.. and the ability to pivot the feud if you involve Renee Young as a balance for Lana.

 

I would be on board for this, as long as it doesn't involve Renee & Lana having to take bumps or stop doing what they're already doing.