Rusev

[GOTNW]

Like what?

[Grimmas]

Like what?

The only guy who has gotten over as a heel. He has been wrestling for five years and only doing long matches for a year. In that time he has had great matches with everybody and seems to get better every match. He does every small thing great and is tremendously charismatic and great on the mic.

 

Bray Wyatt had a similar run into a match with Cena at Mania and look how more important the Rusev match felt compared to the Wyatt match.

[GOTNW]

 

 

Like what?

The only guy who has gotten over as a heel. He has been wrestling for five years and only doing long matches for a year. In that time he has had great matches with everybody and seems to get better every match. He does every small thing great and is tremendously charismatic and great on the mic.

 

Bray Wyatt had a similar run into a match with Cena at Mania and look how more important the Rusev match felt compared to the Wyatt match.

There is so much here I disagree with. Firstly, Rollins is more over and a great example of the fact WWE fans aren't super evil dicks some are making them out to be and are willing to play along. And he is better at the "little things" WWE wants from their performers. Secondly, the great matches aren't there. He hasn't had any. Good? Yes. Great? Nah. Thirdly, great on the mic? That's not even worth discussing. He has a manager for a reason.

 

 

I don't really care for Bray Wyatt but his act has a lot more mileage than Rusev's. Not to mention Wyatt's already gone through a lot of booking idiocy Rusev has yet to experience.

[funkdoc]

frankly i might agree on luke harper. remember that one raw when harper was by himself and he did a bray wyatt promo like 5 times better than the actual bray wyatt does? too bad WWE doesn't seem to...

 

GOTNW: rusev has a legit badass aura about him that few in WWE do, and that goes a long way in the eyes of many. you don't seem to be the biggest fan of stiff hoss fights, which i totally get, but i don't think you can argue those are inherently worse than main-event epics or spotfests or what have you.

[Strummer]

 

Rusev v Cena announced for Extreme Rules on Smackdown

 

[anarchistxx]

Don't think we should put too much stock in Rusev getting over as a heel. Anyone can draw heat running an anti-American gimmick.

[goodhelmet]

Really... Lance Storm and Test were as over as Rusev doing the Anti Americans? Rene Dupree was more over than Rusev?

[anarchistxx]

They got plenty of cheap boos, yes. Don't think the crowd is appreciably louder for Rusev.

[Grimmas]

They got plenty of cheap boos, yes. Don't think the crowd is appreciably louder for Rusev.

You legit think Lance Storm was as over as Rusev is?

[Matt D]

La Résistance probably wore out their welcome but they were pretty over for a while.

 

I think the heel to compare Rusev to is Umaga though.

[GOTNW]

Rusev's hype on PWO and DVDVR sometimes seems as ridiculous as Tanahahashi's on WON. I live for stiff hoss fights. I'd much rather watch Riki Choshu than Flair, Rey, Michaels, the entire Dragon Gate roster etc. Rusev doesn't even work stiff hoss fights regularly. If he can retain his aura after going through the booking parity everyone else has, then he's worth pushing as a long-term top heel.

 

This situation could've easily been avoided had they just put Cena over Rusev in a tables match and fed him to Reigns at a later point which would've given Rusev more time to develop as a performer and ready him to survive the booking parity that awaits him. Alas, Rusev wasn't a name ten years ago, so he isn't worth protecting in their eyes.

[JaymeFuture]

As entertaining as the "super-patriotic evil Russian" stuff might have been, it really narrowed the character. I've always thought that the most interesting aspect was that he's a native Bulgarian and that he's still referred to as such on occasion, they just don't elaborate on it. So why can't we think of him as not the "super-patriotic evil Russian" but "completely unprincipled dude who abandoned his home country to score with a hot girl"? He can be a real craven bastard, there's definitely something there.

 

As yes, the old Bill Watts explanation for Krusher Khruschev - he's more scary than a blind fanatic because he'll abandon his own prinicples and adopt others for his own benefit. Not 2D enough for WWE, sadly.

[stomperspc]

Rusev's hype on PWO and DVDVR sometimes seems as ridiculous as Tanahahashi's on WON. I live for stiff hoss fights. I'd much rather watch Riki Choshu than Flair, Rey, Michaels, the entire Dragon Gate roster etc. Rusev doesn't even work stiff hoss fights regularly. If he can retain his aura after going through the booking parity everyone else has, then he's worth pushing as a long-term top heel.

 

This situation could've easily been avoided had they just put Cena over Rusev in a tables match and fed him to Reigns at a later point which would've given Rusev more time to develop as a performer and ready him to survive the booking parity that awaits him. Alas, Rusev wasn't a name ten years ago, so he isn't worth protecting in their eyes.

 

Rusev works plenty stiff. Watch the slow motion of the of the knee to Cena's jaw on Sunday. His spin kick almost always makes solid contact which is more than could be generally said for that move. One of the last things I think about when watching a Rusev match is "he works too light".

 

The last sentence of the first paragraph is a big part of what is wrong with WWE booking. They should be playing to a wrestler's strengths and trying to get them over, not setting them up for failure or indifference and putting the onus entirely on the the wrestler to make himself. What wrestler in the past ten years has WWE done even-steven booking with who has risen out of that to get over big as a heel? It generally does not work and if it doesn't work Rusev, it won't be because Rusev couldn't cut it.

 

Rusev is as good of an all around wrestler in terms of in-ring work, character, and and getting over as a heel as WWE has had come up in quite some time. He has a lot of value. Just because he is not Riki Choshu doesn't mean he isn't a good wrestler or shouldn't continue to pushed/protected.

[anarchistxx]

 

They got plenty of cheap boos, yes. Don't think the crowd is appreciably louder for Rusev.

You legit think Lance Storm was as over as Rusev is?

 

 

Lance Storm was never especially over in any guise, but he got plenty of heat when cutting anti-America promos and waving the Canadian flag around. Insulting the USA is about the cheapest heat you can possibly get in mainstream American wrestling, and really doesn't prove any particular adeptness at playing heel.

 

It is rarely a gimmick with any long term shelf life, because the characters never have interesting, three dimensional motivations. Despite that, they clearly have plans because he didn't even lose clean at Wrestlemania. The complaints are bemusing - in just about every situation in wrestling history the patriotic top face beats the evil foreign heel at the biggest show of the year with decisive authority. Cena barely inched the victory due to outside interference and people still moan.

 

Especially strange on a show where the heel was walking out with the world title, which is essentially unprecedented in WWE history if your name isn't Triple-H.

[Steenalized]

The arguments from people who don't like Rusev seem to come down to "I don't think he's very good so I'm glad he'll get shipped back down the card." I don't mean to fight a strawman here, I'm really not seeing much else do it. The gimmick may or may not have a short shelf life, but given the huge reactions he's getting it hasn't exactly run its course yet. Not to mention it can survive through some tweaks, even if it has to go beyond a purely-anti-American gimmick. I don't even think it's only an anti-USA gimmick either. That's at the root of it, but he's also working the gimmick of being an unstoppable elite athlete, training and working harder than anyone else. They can work it in the future too where he's a heel who is willing to forego his principles when it's advantageous, so Rusev the wrestler isn't dead in the water even if Rusev the Russian is. My problem with these anti-Rusev arguments is, like I said, they come down to 'I don't care for Rusev, so fuck it.' I get that to some level, I don't give a damn about Bray Wyatt and would prefer him off my TV. The problem is that the WWE has a major issue of being able to produce quality, top level heels. If Bray actually could have stuck as a heel, then I'd be happy enough to at least have a legitimate heel around as much as I can't stand his promos. Rusev on the other hand has shown some excellent character and promo ability and has gotten top level heel heat that the company needs so badly right now. It's better for the WWE for him to be strong and hated then for him to become yet another heatless midcard act. What are they going to do, push Rollins as the sole heel at this point when he's definitely struggled to get reactions at time? Lesnar isn't a heel at this point. Reigns could turn heel, but the crowd might still sink him with apathy, rejecting him as the chosen one who they do not want.

[anarchistxx]

 

 

The arguments from people who don't like Rusev seem to come down to "I don't think he's very good so I'm glad he'll get shipped back down the card."

 

Not sure where you get that from. The argument is:

 

- His gimmick is corny, archaic and has a short shelf life

- His television segments are repetitive and tedious

- His overrated as an in ring worker

- The character has very little motivation that can connect with the audience other than reductionist nationalistic stuff

- It is hard to judge how over he is with the crowd as the gimmick relies on cheap heat

- A heel who can't survive a semi-clean loss to the top face in the company isn't serving his purpose

 

 

 

but given the huge reactions he's getting it hasn't exactly run its course yet.

 

Don't really buy this - the heat for his matches isn't exactly molten. Cesaro was getting much bigger reactions for a while last year.

[Steenalized]

To address those in order:

 

-That's a point of you just not liking him/his gimmick.

-See above

-See above

-Partially see above, but also as I mentioned there are ways to spin it and keep it going, and there's more to it than "I'm Russian, Russia's great, America sucks." That's the baseline of it, yes, but there's a bit more to it (the WWE online promo was a great example) and there are ways to expand from there.

-See what I just said.

-Lots of guys try to get cheap heat. He actually gets it, and not just with the flag waiving and 'America sucks' shtick. He actually gets heat in his matches, which is far more important and indicative of his standing as a heel.

-Time will tell how he makes his way out of this, but there are a lot of factors involved, including if he beats Cena at ER and how he beats him there. The problem is that every heel that gets to the top at this point, save Rollins who is oddly their golden boy in many ways and Brock, who isn't really a heel anymore, gets zero chance to shine. They lose once then get shuttled back down to nothing programs, if a program at all. See Bray last year going into a heatless feud vs. Jericho.

 

Cesaro got a huge reaction at Mania and the next night because of all the smart and European fans at Mania. That died out pretty quickly, albeit the booking didn't help. Cesaro also didn't have the sustained crowd push like Rusev has had for months now.

[Dylan Waco]

They got plenty of cheap boos, yes. Don't think the crowd is appreciably louder for Rusev.

 

This is in the upper tier of crazy things I've seen posted on this board.

 

If you don't like the gimmick or his working style I get it, but this is a guy that had an insanely over feud with Jack Swagger. At a point where entire shows were dying huge deaths with nothing getting heat, Rusev was consistently getting reactions.

 

He was the most over heel on the roster last year by a wide margin, unless you count Brock who wasn't really a heel, or Steph who isn't really a wrestler.

[anarchistxx]

-That's a point of you just not liking him/his gimmick.

 

Whether I like the gimmick or not is irrelevant. 99% of people would agree that the evil foreign heel gimmick is at best dated and regressive, at worst xenophobic and cheap. The fact it makes for boring television makes it even worse.

 

 

 

-See above

 

Well, no. His television segments are repetitive, whether you enjoy them or not. He did practically the same thing every week for months after debut. You can't just worm your way out of every criticism by saying 'that just comes down to you not enjoying his gimmick/those promos/those matches'. Otherwise there would be no discussion at all.

 

My criticism was that the promos and squash matches were repetitive. The more appropriate response would be to provide evidence of variety.

 

-See above

 

Again, a worthless response. I think Rusev is overrated as an in ring worker. It isn't a counter argument for you to say "you don't like his matches because you think he is a poor worker". Talk about stating the obvious. Go to bat for him, argue that he is a good worker. Because currently your argument boils down to:

 

You don't like his gimmick, ring work, promos and booking but I do.

 

 

 

"I'm Russian, Russia's great, America sucks." That's the baseline of it, yes, but there's a bit more to it

 

Not much more. They have had a year to come up with interesting motivations and personality for this character, and it still boils down to evil foreign heel who stands against the American way of life.

 

 

 

-Lots of guys try to get cheap heat. He actually gets it, and not just with the flag waiving and 'America sucks' shtick. He actually gets heat in his matches,

 

Can't agree with this. Can't remember a match of his that was molten., where the crowd really cared about the result one way or another.

 

 

 

The problem is that every heel that gets to the top at this point, save Rollins who is oddly their golden boy in many ways and Brock, who isn't really a heel anymore, gets zero chance to shine.

 

Rusev has just gone unbeaten for a whole fucking year - how much more shine can you get? The whole point of the evil foreign heel is that they are ultimately conquered by the patriotic, crusading top face. To quote myself:

 

A heel who can't survive a semi-clean loss to the top face in the company isn't serving his purpose

 

You can count on one hand the number of jobs Brock Lesnar, Rusev and Bray Wyatt have done in the last year. That is three heels who have been protected more than any face on the roster.

 

 

 

Cesaro also didn't have the sustained crowd push like Rusev has had for months now.

 

Really don't get this 'sustained crowd push' for Rusev argument. It is the construction in the mind of people who are marks for him. Everyone gets a reaction against John Cena. He wasn't getting crazy crowd responses against Mark Henry and Big Show.

[anarchistxx]

 

They got plenty of cheap boos, yes. Don't think the crowd is appreciably louder for Rusev.

 

This is in the upper tier of crazy things I've seen posted on this board.

 

If you don't like the gimmick or his working style I get it, but this is a guy that had an insanely over feud with Jack Swagger. At a point where entire shows were dying huge deaths with nothing getting heat, Rusev was consistently getting reactions.

 

He was the most over heel on the roster last year by a wide margin, unless you count Brock who wasn't really a heel, or Steph who isn't really a wrestler.

 

 

Zeb Colter built the Rusev/Jack Swagger feud, and it flagged massively towards the end in terms of reaction. Without Zeb as the patriotic mouthpiece whipping up the crowd his other feuds received just the average response you might expect from an Anti-American heel. Plenty of 'USA' chants, very little real engagement.

 

Sure, he was over - the point is that it is nearly all cheap heat.

[Grimmas]

I like the idea that repetitive actions is boring and a bad thing, when that is the stuff that gets over. When you have built that stuff up over time and then you change things up a bit it gets even more over.

[Dylan Waco]

Zeb is a great promo and deserves a ton of credit - but so does Rusev. Swagger was DOA before the feud and DOA after.

[Exposer]

Pertaining to the whole "Why is Rusev good?" question from anarchist I think two good examples are from the Cena feud. During one match (maybe Fast Lane), when the fans are chanting for Jerry Lawler, Rusev directs his attention at Lawler and yells at him. That's a really good example of going with the flow of the audience and reacting to what they're doing or saying. At WM, the moment where he demands to be announced first in the introductions is a great example of heel work too. He might've been told to do that, but his acting and mannerisms are what made it such a great moment.

 

He is also terrific at long term selling in matches. I actually think he's the best in WWE at it. There have been many times in matches where he's cut off an opponents comeback and sold the impact of that comeback over time.

[Steenalized]

He also had that moment where he lost his shit when the Russian flag unfurled wrong. Little things like that which show his commitment to the character.

[MJH]

I was at the Raw tapings last November in Liverpool, on the floor, a few rows back. I can't stress enough how terrible most guys look up close. Rusev vs. Sheamus was the one exception. Don't get me wrong, it didn't look like they were competing, but you could hear every strike land solid, which is a step up from most, and an important one.

 

That doesn't make his gimmick any less cheap, of course, but he plays it well and he has a tough vibe lacking in most.