The NBA Playoffs are pro wrestling

[PeteF3]

That doesn't make Stockton Marty Jannetty, does it?

 

Also last night I spent way too much time pondering the equivalents of non-superstars like Kurt Rambis and World B. Free. Free's difficult because he was flamboyant and charismatic without being overly good, and in wrestling he might well get pushed to the top. Rambis would be a "mechanic" who's really good at working fundamentally and putting on solid TV matches to make his opponent look good, but I didn't want to taint him by comping him to someone like Barry Horowitz. Even though the height thing might tempt you to match him to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues, I settled on Rambis = Bill Dundee. A roleplayer for major promotions who "knows how to work," a star for Memphis/Santa Clara.

[jdw]

Somehow I just came across this thread today. Since wrestling & NBA are my 2 favorites...I love it. Been a blast reading through it.

 

Rodman is somewhere along the lines of a a Hayes or Gordy but with a much, much longer Freebird run. Way too quick to be the Worm. Arn Anderson also seems like a good fit, but not enough all time performances from him as you need a surefire HOFer. Arn might be a good comp for Robert Horry unless you're sour on him, in which case you lose anyways.

 

 

Rodman = Gordy might not be a bad one at all. "Championship" run with the Pistons/Birds, sort of farted around for a while, then second Championship run with Bulls/All Japan. Rodman eventually lost his mind, and Gordy OD's his mind away. To a degree both are tragic, but it seemed like people in the business / teammates loved the guy when his mind was on right. Neither were anchor stars like a Jordan or Hansen type, but were excellent in the teammate / roster role.

 

Some other thoughts:

Taue = Scottie Pippen

 

 

Taue wasn't as good as Pippen. Scottie is one of the 2-3 best defensive players of the modern era (along with Rodman and... it's harder to find #3 than it is to find the Top 2). Taue wasn't one of the 2-3 best at any skill.

 

Tenryu = Shaq (Vader doesn't rank highly enough even if its a stronger fit)

 

 

Shaq doesn't have Tenryu's longevity. Tenryu doesn't have Shaq's level of dominance.

 

 

Shawn Michaels = Karl Malone (Dr. J is a better fit but the hunting comp seals this one)

 

 

Karl didn't have the break down or the substance abuse that Shawn did. Shawn wasn't the revolutionary juice head that Karl was. Karl was also a choker on the biggest stages, and while I tend to think Shawn was wildly overrated, he wasn't a choke in big matches (though he was as a Champ).

 

No one gets compared to Jordan because every wrestler has to job at some point.

 

 

1985 Lost NBA Eastern Conference First Round (1-3) versus Milwaukee Bucks

1986 Lost NBA Eastern Conference First Round (0-3) versus Boston Celtics

1987 Lost NBA Eastern Conference First Round (0-3) versus Boston Celtics

1988 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (1-4) versus Detroit Pistons

1989 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (2-4) versus Detroit Pistons

1990 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (3-4) versus Detroit Pistons

1995 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (2-4) versus Orlando Magic

 

Jordan jobbed.

 

He's a good match for Hogan: they both jobbed early to Backlund and Andre types. Then they got the belt and didn't lose... except for screwy booking.

[elliott]

Karl Malone is Grizzly Smith.

[WingedEagle]

Taue/Pippen: No argument on Scottie as the premier defender of his era (though I might tip the hat to Jordan for being in the discussion after him and Rodman), but I liked Pippen as an overall comp. Neither are in the all-time great discussion like their peers (Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi vs. Jordan), but clearly belong somewhere in the next rung.

 

Jordan: Gotta give him a pass on the way up as everyone needs to learn the ropes. Once he was crowned, he did not relinquish the throne. No jobs from that point forward -- all hail Jordan!

 

Do you prefer Erving for HBK? Michaels doesn't have an '83 on his resume (as Robin to Mose's Batman), though you could argue the "Mr. Wrestlemania" title is a close comp.

[elliott]

HBK is Jason The Heartbreak Kidd.

 

Terrific younger player yet flawed. Played a big role in breakup of Mavs/Rockers.

 

On the surface, was an unselfish on the court/in the ring (first rate passer/great bumper). But there was always always a "look at me"vibe to them while at their athletic peak that made them standout even though it seems like they're carrying their teammates. Seemed to have an inordinate amount of backstage non-sense in spite of looking like a team first player to casuals.

 

Really great top player in the east at his peak but there was always at least a couple of people better around the league/world (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, Misawa, Kawada, Liger, Casas etc etc).

 

On top during the dark ages of his company/conference (1996 WWF = 2001-03 Eastern Conference).

 

Horrible/hilarious hair style decisions - Kidd's bleach blonde hair = 2003 Shawn's bob haircut.

 

"Trainer" of prodigious young talent Daniel Brayn/Giannis.

[elliott]

Series over. Kyrie-less Cavs vs Warriors is like Stan Hansen vs Kikuchi.

[WingedEagle]

Next couple days will confirm, but last night felt like Sting tearing up his knee climbing the cage at the Clash, pushing the inevitable crowning (LBJ winning in Cleveland ) to the Bash (date TBD) while Luger steps in.

 

Not that Cavs winning this one was any kind of luck, but you could make a credible case for them. Its not happening if LBJ is going at it alone.

[elliott]

I'm not sure the Cavs winning a title is so inevitable. They'll have great odds every year because LeBron is LeBron and being in the east is a huge help since they'll have a cakewalk to the finals practically every year.

 

Buuuuuut. If Love leaves this year they won't really have any cap space to replace him. Do we really trust Kyrie to ever stay healthy for a full season + playoff run? Even if Love re-signs, are they ever going to figure out how to use him right? How are they going to upgrade the bench? LeBron is on the wrong side of 30, he's approaching 1100 NBA games (regular season+playoffs) and has surpassed 43,000 minutes played (with 7000 playoff minutes). He needed a 2 week rest in the middle of the season. Just how much longer can we reasonably call him the best player in the world?

 

And then look around the rest of the league. OKC will be back next year. Golden State will bring everyone back and be even better with another year together and the confidence of having just won the title. San Antonio will probably bring everyone back and might add LaMarcus Aldridge. Perhaps Fred Hoiberg will have a rotation that doesn't kill all of his players by the playoffs. Paul George and Indiana will be back. Giannis will make another leap. Atlanta will probably bring everyone back and surely the NYPD will cut them a break next year. Anthony Davis is looming.

 

I'm not saying that LeBron is done and Cleveland won't win a title with him.

 

But. It's not as sure of a thing as everyone was saying last August.

 

I was confident GS would've beaten Cleveland even before Kevin Love went down. It would have been yet another glorious example of a team first culture beating a LeBron led superstar team. But watching prime LeBron and a bunch of role players try to contend with this Warriors team is going to be depressing. As depressing a basketball game can be while you're still laughing and smiling the whole time that is. It's fun to root against LeBron when he's got a chance and his team simply loses to a better and more well rounded team. But this is going to be the basketball equivalent of kitten abuse.

 

Anyway, wrestling comp...

 

I'm not sure Sting tearing his knee out works for this. I was thinking something like NJ vs WAR. Where LeBron is Tenryu and then Golden State has the next 7 best guys. And then Tristan Thompson and Mozgov etc are your Ishikawa's and Kabuki's etc. Cleveland's bench over the next few years is going to be the nba equivalent of WAR 6man teams. Just weird combos thrown together seemingly at random.

[jdw]

Buuuuuut. If Love leaves this year they won't really have any cap space to replace him.

 

They likely believe they have the replacement inhouse: Thompson & Mozgov as the C/PF combo, then Bron moving to PF when they go "small".

 

We all know Thompson is represented by GM Lebron's agent. Lebron wants him there, and Thompson already turned down $13M a year well before he had the post season run.

 

They'll resign Thompson, probably at an overpay range since the $40M the cap will move up in the next two years will make what's overpay be regular pay.

 

They can qualifying offer Mozgov. They'll likely try to sign him long term in the post season rather than risk that.

 

They're love to have someone take Varejao off their hands, but that's not happening. They likely hope he can stay healthy enough to caddy for Mozgov.

 

Smith might opt out thinking there's more money out there for him, or try to leverage that to get more money out of the Cavs.

 

Players out there are seeing what Lebron has done for Shumpert, Smith, Jobberdova, Thompson and Mozgov. There are a number of players who will be happy to play "cheap" with Lebron for two years to become free agents when the cap goes through the roof and they can cash in. My guess is that there might be a class of guys younger than Marion and Miller this time around. A lot of players always want to cash in, and seeing people's wheels blow up like Wesley Matthews always scares people. But if your option is $1M playing with Bron and $3M a year for two years elsewhere, you might take the Bron deal thinking that in two years you can cash in like an limited but hard working player such as Thompson is going. Or think of what might happen if people see Smith pull in a multi-year deal for decent money after a few months with Bron when in December he looked like a guy playing his way towards a minimum salary on some shitty team.

 

The Cavs will be fine next year as long as Bron doesn't make "friends & family deals" like the one Thompson is going to get a major habit of how the Cavs are run.

 

I also think the End Of Days stuff with Lebron is a bit overplayed in some circles. He's a year younger than Magic was in his final season, with the same "mileage" on him in terms of years played in the NBA and playoff times, etc. Magic's odometer was actually higher: two years of the NCAA, including one run all the way to the title game. He also played more often deeper into the post season that Bron did, right from that very first season: 9 trips to the Finals. Anyone who watched Magic in his final season could see he was far from washed up. Smart player who could adjust to the changing times and the wear on his body. The team already knew that they wanted to spot him around at PF and SF in the coming years, and look towards getting a bench PG to support some of the duty (they'd signed Sedale Threatt in the off season).

 

Bron is more Magic than Kobe was, ending up being the true merger of Magic and Mike. Like both of them he'll have a sense of the body slowing down from some of the athleticism of his youth and adjust. He'll have an easier time of it that a lot of folks.

[WingedEagle]

I also wouldn't worry about the Cavs future without Love whatsoever. Salary cap will be taking a big jump shortly and they'll have plenty of space with LBJ's contract coming due at the same time allowing them flexibility that summer. Put that around an LBJ/Irving/Thompson/Mozgov core -- forgetting about Love for a minute -- and they'll at worst be prohibitive conference favorites for a few years.

[elliott]

I agree that the LeBron/Kyrie/Thompson/Mozgov core will be the "conference favorites" for a few years, but I think that's more about LeBron+Kyrie+Eastern Conference being really terrible overall.

 

I like Mozgov. I do. Oddly enough probably my favorite "type of basketball player" is a big center who plays team defense really well and is a great passer. Mozgov isn't a great passer but obviously he's really good defensively. But is he realistically one of the 15 best centers in the league right now? Will he be one of the 5 best defensive centers in the league over the next 8-10 years? If I'm signing a relatively limited offensively yet really good defensive center to a major deal and making him one of my building blocks going forward, I want to be sure he's going to be a DPOTY type every year. Are we sure Mozgov is going to be that guy?

 

As for Tristan...I mean, I get that the cap is rising but $13+ million a year is an outrageous amount of money to pay a guy who is the 2nd best PF on the team and will probably never be the best PF on the team. $13+mil per year for a guy who has never averaged 12ppg or 10rpg or 2apg or more than 1bpg, or made 70% of his FT, and has taken 6 threes in his entire career and missed all of them. This same guy who couldn't decide if he was left handed or right handed until 2 years ago, made the switch and averaged the exact same numbers? Yes he is a great offensive rebounder. But do you really want to tie up something like $15mil a year for your 2nd best PF for an extra 2 offensive rebounds per game and zero spacing? Note, I do understand that Tristan is excellent cutting to the basket and he shot above 50% for the first time this year so Lebron has definitely made him more efficient. I also will accept that Tristan is a good defender if you want to make that argument. But its not like Taj Gibson makes $15million a year.

 

Kyrie is great. I inherently dislike him as a former Duke player, but he only played like 8 games there so its not like he's Wojo. He's not good defensively and probably never will be but offensively he is spectacular and is in many ways the perfect sort of player you'd want to pair aging Lebron with. I would like to see a full season out of him. He'll play one at some point. I tried to find out if he had injury problems in high school. I saw a vague reference to a shoulder injury in high school. If that's it then he's had noteworthy injuries in 5 of his last 7 basketball playing seasons. I worry about him being this generation's Kevin Johnson (to Derrick Rose's Grant Hill). Kyrie is great and it would be great if he could move past all these injuries. But 0-4 including college is a real bummer. But he's the perfect sidekick for LeBron.

 

Obviously LeBron is the best player in the world. I agree with John that he will age gracefully because he's incredibly talented and a very smart player. But he's not exactly the best shooter in the world. So, ideally you'd want to put him in the post and run the offense through him with a bunch of shooters around him...except...you just shelled out 100+million for Moz and Tristan over however many years....two big guys who do nothing for your spacing. So that sort of clogs up the lane. And Kyrie isn't a create for everyone else kind of player so....what Lebron is still essentially the point guard as he slows down athletically?

 

So Tristan turned down $13mil per year. Lets say you can somehow talk him into signing a 4yr $55mil deal. That's 13.75 per year.

Mozgov is on a great deal that will only pay him $4.9mil next year. But he's a FA after that. He means more defensively than Tristan and he "saved" their season in many ways. So you'll think he'll command more than Tristan. So lets say 4yr $60mil starting in 2016/17.

Kyrie just signed a 5 year $90mil contract that will kick in next year.

LeBron only signed a 2 year deal with an opt out after this year. Assuming he opts in this year and signs a max deal when the cap jumps in 2016 he'd be eligible for a deal starting around $29mil per year (assuming the cap rises to the expected $90mil).

 

So in 2016/17 you'd be paying those 4 guys roughly $73million of your $90mil in cap space. You're going to start having to spend real money on Kyrie insurance. Since the cap increases maybe it will take $6-8 a year for someone like Ramon Sessions or a Lebron favorite like Napier. Suddenly you're looking at $11mil or less to sign 7 more players (subtracting for whatever draft picks, but lets be real, cleveland won't be drafting again any time soon those picks are all getting traded) and you still only have 1 dangerous 3point shooter and no real way to play small ball. You know, the way the league is shifting.

 

Other than the two nights they drafted LeBron and Kyrie, at what point over the last 12 years has Cleveland the NBA Franchise exercised good judgement? History tells me they'll make a really stupid decision to try and make LeBron happy and it will end up making things worse for him.

 

I just hope this all ends with 1 title and then the next year it ends with a "Timofey Mozgov had sex with LeBron's mother" rumor as the team implodes against the Bucks or someone like that. That way the whole world wins

[WingedEagle]

Delonte West. Never forget. One of the greatest, most fun urban legends of our time.

[elliott]

It's the modern equivalent of "Who wants to sex Mutombo?"

[jdw]

Here's a look at the Cavs cap issues from earlier in the year:

 

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2015/01/explainer-cleveland-cavaliers-salary-kyrie-irving

 

The movement of the cap in the coming years:

 

2015/16
Cap: 67.1M
Tax: 81.6M

 

2016/17
Cap: 89M
Tax: 108

 

2017/18
Cap: 108M
Tax: 127M

 

They will let Love wander off since it eases a lot of the burden. But they still have issues with Thompson (given what he already turned down) and Mozgov (who is he and/or his agent have a brain grasp that he's more valuable than Thompson and should be paid as such). If either sign for "cheap", they'll likely work in an opt-out that gives them total free agency in the coming years.

 

As said, Varejao's contract sucks: it's $9M+ a year of wasted money.

 

Shumpert is another qualifying offer. He might sign for "less" but work in an opt-out as well.

 

The Cavs will quickly be in the same boat as the Heat: stars eating up the Cap, and having to build around them on the cheap. The difference is:

 

* Bron isn't as good as he was in his four years with the Heat

 

* Irving's ceiling and regular health issues (going back to college) are unclear

 

* Mozgov or Thompson isn't Bosh

 

The benefit remains that people want to play with Lebron, and he's better at bending them to his will than say Kobe. So they can get a certain type of player for cheap.

 

The problem is that NBA Money is going through the roof, and players rightly feel they were screwed on the last deal. Players want to get PAID, and that's only going to increase as we heading into another round of labor strife. So the quality / age of "players on the cheap" might be different in a few years than it was when the Heat we picking up guys like Shane.

 

It's going to take some work. The Cavs would have avoided a lot of this mess if they kept Wiggins rather than going for Love. They made a major "save" in picking up Mozgov. Shumpert & Smith were more flyers, once that might pay off this year but in turn cause the players to be price prohibitive to retain long term. In the case of Smith, who cares as he's a type that likely might be replaceable with less of a headache. With Shumpert, you'd king of like to hang onto him. But the more he plays with Bron, the more other teams would like to sign him away.

[ohtani's jacket]

Warriors aren't playing as well as you said they would, Elliot. The Cavs are uglifying things. It's Choshu vs. Tenryu out there.

[WingedEagle]

Ha not bad. Very arguably a NJPW vs. WAR dynamic, with Tenryu more than picking up the slack for his role playing crew against a Hash/Muto/Choshu etc. collection of all stars.

[Zenjo]

Numerous free agents out there this summer would do well to sign a one year deal with Cleveland at below their market value. They get a shot at a title and lots of TV exposure to jack up their value. Then next year they can sign a juicy new contract elsewhere that exceeds anything they could get this offseason. Sadly Brooklyn won't have the cap space to snap up Varejao. Maybe some team embarking on a multi-season tank will step in instead? Regardless of squad strength Cleveland will always have a shot as long as Lebron keeps playing to this level. That's probably quite a short window.

 

As for comparing wrestlers to NBA players I can't get my brain around that. I do have to brag about going 14-0 with my pre-playoff predictions thus far. And GS can't really lose the finals to a one man team. Can they?

[elliott]

Warriors aren't playing as well as you said they would, Elliot. The Cavs are uglifying things. It's Choshu vs. Tenryu out there.

 

I know! I'm very surprised. Curry looked like dogshit in the last game. It felt like he was treating it like a preseason game. He was bad Mutoh yesterday.

 

And LeBron couldn't get a call to save his life in that game. Van Gundy was absolutely right about him not getting the superstar calls we'd normally see for players of his caliber.

[benj]

Lets go Warriors, work the cut!

[elliott]

The whole LeBron hitting his head on the camera thing and everything that happened/didn't happen in the aftermath was incredibly bizarre. Including Adam Silver talking about it. Very very strange.

 

"We don't want any cameras."

 

What?

[jdw]

The whole Silver thing was oddly interesting.

 

He's over as a babyface. First he was the Anti-Stern. Stern went from being the only Babyface Commissioner into being a Grumpy Old Heel Commish who no one liked in the end. Then Silver dropped the hammer on Sterling, cleaning up the mess that Stern and the other owners had ignored for decades.

 

Yet the whole halftime thing felt like Dusty ESPN rolling out Jim Crockett Silver to let he be part of the show and suck up to him. It was a bit funny that Silver wanted to talk about Hoops rather than Business, and seemed to take Sage back a step for being a Commish up on all sorts of thing.

 

One would prefer not to see Silver sucked into going the Dixie Carter route and letting it go to his head.

[elliott]

Just in terms of talking about the LeBron cut/probable concussion, Silver did not come off well I thought. It felt like he was 5 seconds away from saying "its LeBron. We're not pulling LeBron out of the game no matter what. People will stop watching. DUH" and Sage was smart enough to immediately change the subject.

[elliott]

Awesome. Good triumphs over evil.

 

Between that series and game of thrones ending, I feel like I can breath again.

[DMJ]

Awesome. Good triumphs over evil.

 

 

Depends on if you think the best player of his generation returning home to try to end one of the longest droughts in sports history for a fan base that has suffered through a ridiculous number of cursed moments is an example of "evil."

 

Since when are underdogs evil too? Golden State was heavily favored going into the Finals. At no point, even when the Cavs were up 2-1, did Golden State become the underdog. Steve Kerr said it best in Game 4 when he reminded his team that the Cavs were just 7 players and that they would tire if Golden State outlasted them. That is pretty much what happened (mixed with JR Smith and Shumpert shooting terribly and Igoudala having the best series of games of his career).

 

Golden State was relatively healthy throughout their entire run. The Cavs lost two All-Stars. I'm not sure how many Good vs. Evil fairytales you're familiar with but, typically, the hero is the one faced with insurmountable challenges on their quest for glory. This time around the challenges were so insurmountable that they weren't…uh…surmounted. With the odds stacked heavily against them, though, the Cavs fought valiantly and bravely, gave everything they could (Dellevedova needed to be hospitalized for dehydration/exhaustion after Game 3 for chrissakes), but couldn't reach the mountaintop. Their effort was inspiring, especially in the closing minutes as, despite having lost the game with minutes left, with the crowd chanting "Let's Go Cavs!" and "MVP," the team (particularly JR Smith) refused to go down without sinking one more shot. These guys are pros and they've played a lot of basketball and they knew it was hopeless, but they went down fighting till the last 10 seconds.

 

Golden State is a fantastic team and I don't think they played dirty or cheated or anything of the sort. They won fair and square. But it wasn't a Cinderella story and it wasn't "Good triumphing over Evil." It was the expected outcome of a competition between a very healthy, very good, very motivated team and a bruised-and-battered, less skilled, but also highly motivated team.

[jdw]

You could say that the Cavs owner is Evil, since he really is an Evil Bankster. The problem is that the Warriors owner Lacob is a Venture Capitalist at KPCB who are every bit as evil as the banksters, but just shine their shit up nice (i.e. point to their Good Investments and ignore their Vulture Capitalism, etc). Then there's Peter Guber...

 

So it really is Evil over Evil.

 

Lebron really isn't evil.