shoe Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Now personally I thought the Carolina crew brought a higher workrate to the WWE with the likes of Steamboat, Valentine, Orton, and others. George Scott was a key figure in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 It definitely started with the ex-JCP guys and the Stampede guys brought a different element but they weren't the sole reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think it's a difference in how you define "workrate" , which is a terrible term that needs to die in a gasoline fire. But if you really want to look at s guy who brought a more exciting style to the WWF, look at Sgt. Slaughter in the early 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think it's a difference in how you define "workrate" , which is a terrible term that needs to die in a gasoline fire. But if you really want to look at s guy who brought a more exciting style to the WWF, look at Sgt. Slaughter in the early 80's. Bret's term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 It's completely understandable that Bret has the view he does, and the Bulldogs were unlike any of the Carolina guys (look at their offence for starters), but what Bret doesn't realise is that it originated with Marty Jones and Mark Rocco not Dynamite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Also, the matches were better when Bret was on top, but I'm not sure WWE really became a "workrate" company until Benoit and Jericho jumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Did Marty Jones and Rocco do 57 different varieties of suplex? I still haven't seen any real bombs in WoS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Also, if you look at what Bret did in a match, did he really work harder than say Race? Who was pinballing around the ring for thirty minutes+ every night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up. I see Bulldogs as guys who did high end offense, it's what sets them apart in the 80s. I also get the impression Bret is unaware really of the Southern Crockett guys and what they could do. Steamboat and co were workrate guys. Bret's view of things is entirely skewed by a WWF or Northern centric mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I don't think Bret is unaware of any of the guys who worked in the WWF during the time he was there. I think Bret has an over-inflated view of himself and everyone who came out of Calgary, but at the same time it's understandable why he'd feel the way he does because the workrate a Steamboat provided is not the same as the Calgary guys. I do think he misrepresented the style of Harley Race, who clearly wasn't in the Dory Funk Jr mold, but I don't think it changes his overall point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up. I don't think it matters that Jones and Rocco influenced the Stampede style for this topic. All that means is that they indirectly raised the work in the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I've watched a lot of WWF houseshows and it seemed the Carolina boys were the ones having the best matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Keep the Flair talk in the Flair on offense talk since it has nothing to do with this topic. I split that into a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I was wondering when I read OJ's point this morning whether or not that's a rabbit hole worth going down. When you get down to it every worker who innovates is taking bits and pieces from the people they watched as a kid and making them into something "new". So if you were going to say Marty Jones and Mark Rocco invented the Calgary style, who invented their style? And who were their heroes watching when they grew up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up.I see Bulldogs as guys who did high end offense, it's what sets them apart in the 80s. I also get the impression Bret is unaware really of the Southern Crockett guys and what they could do. Steamboat and co were workrate guys. Bret's view of things is entirely skewed by a WWF or Northern centric mindset. I don't think Bret was skewed by a WWF or North centric point of view. He worked for years with a pretty diverse group of guys in Stampede, who were the exact oppoiste of New York style. By his own admission, he didn't enjoy wrestling with alot of the WWF mainstays that he worked with in his first year or so in the company, as they were people he felt that no vested interest in making him. He obviously respected Ricky Steamboat as a worker, as he was gutted when their match at Wrestlemania 2 was scrapped. The Bulldogs and Neidhart showing up just meant that he would have a group of guys he knew how to work with and they could get over in their spot on the card as none of them were threatening the main events spots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 As I understood it.. reading the Brett autobiography.. the Calgary crew raised the work rate in the WWF. I'd have to go back and double check.. but I don't think he was saying he invented a style in the WWF. NYC certainly had a bad rep as presenting "wrestling" when the Calgary crew showed up, so I'd think in Bret's mind it was relative to what was being done before hand. It's contextual to the time, not what we can see with 30ish some years distance. If you wanna establish who yr favs are -now- from that time period.. go for it. But don't hang a man over his words.. especially when they show the logic of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Also, Rocco and Jones.. did they invent a style? No. I'm not a WoS expert, but I don't see the connection. I understand the influence thru Dynamite, but it doesn't read as what I've seen of Stampede or what they did in the WWF. I'm open minded on this point, so if there are examples, what would they be ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 No one's trying to hang Bret over his words. I'm trying to see what others think. I've made my position clear . The George Scott crew were the ones really delivering and having the best match on the show . They're the ones leading the pack. I feel the Stampede boys were a nice compliment to the card, but it was in fact the Carolina crew having more dynamic matches 1st. How is it contextual in time. The statement was wrong then, and wrong now.I'll grant that the Bulldigs were innovative for the time period . That's not the statement he said in the podcast. He said they were the guys at the forefront raising the bar of the work rate in the promotion. If you agree with him cool. I just feels the evidence doesn't support that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 No one's trying to hang Bret over his words. I'm trying to see what others think. I've made my position clear . The George Scott crew were the ones really delivering and having the best match on the show . They're the ones leading the pack. I feel the Stampede boys were a nice compliment to the card, but it was in fact the Carolina crew having more dynamic matches 1st. How is it contextual in time. The statement was wrong then, and wrong now.I'll grant that the Bulldigs were innovative for the time period . That's not the statement he said in the podcast. He said they were the guys at the forefront raising the bar of the work rate in the promotion. If you agree with him cool. I just feels the evidence doesn't support that claim. It is contextual in time.. that's how people view their lives. The Carolina crew you mention, I think they worked differently than the Calgary crew. But maybe we should get into particular wrasslers and matches. If only because I wanna revisit both.. haha! But I don't think they necessarily overlap, and Brett ended up as the forefront of the promotion, when it did change it's style. Not to mention the reputation NYC had in the wrassling world at that time. Check the topic title, someone's using Bret's words to hang him. Who had better matches, Carolina vs Calgary in the WWF ? would be more direct.. or so I think 😏 Was the work rate before Bret really better? Especially after he became a belt holder/feature? As work rate was defined at the time? No clue about the podcast. If that's central to the discussion, than obviously, this is about Bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Bret is referring to the 84-86 timeframe so his work as IC champ or World champ doesn't come into the equation. I'm the one who started the thread. I think Bret made an interesting talking point. It's a talking point I don't agree with though. I was crowd sourcing to see what others thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Pete, when you say "Carolina guys", who else do you mean apart from Greg Valentine? Steamer coming in? I don't see Piper as a guy who was really upping the workrate. Bob Orton Jr is more of a Florida guy. Adrian Adonis and Iron Sheik were both an AWA guys. And Rick Martel was to an extent when he came back. Santana from Amarillo, then AWA (arguably a "WWF guy" through and through). Savage came in from Memphis and ICW before that. Later on, DiBiase came in from Mid-South. Seems to me that WWF's workrate crew came from all over. Unless there are other guys you have in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted May 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Orton came right from the Carolina's even if Florida he worked a good bit. The time frame I'm looking at is 84-86. Of course Parv it's going to become a melting pot when you're going from territory to territory grabbing the best guys it's inevitable it becomes a melting pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Shoe, I also think Bret is correct here. I have been watching a lot of Prime Time lately and my favourite people to watch are Orton Jr. and the Hart Foundation. Opposition plays a big factor: Orton Jr. slows down his pace when wrestling Billy Jack or Pedro, because he has got to. I haven't recently watched much Carolinas wrestling but I'd bet he worked a faster paced style over there most of the time. Valentine and Orndorff also were much faster in the stuff from Charlotte/Georgia/Florida that I have seen (which of course isn't nearly as much stuff as you or most people here have watched). Bret or the Bulldogs on the other hand try to push slower paced wrestlers like Rotundo or Volkoff to work a faster match than usual. When the Calgary crew face each other, or a willing team like the Bees or the Rougeaus, they usually end up having the fastest match on the show. The smaller guys are also more willing to give and take flashier high impact offense that JYD or Haynes won't take. The difference in speed becomes gigantic if we start comparing the Calgary crew to Hercules, Beefcake, SD Jones... That seems to be Bret's definition of workrate so using those parameters he's right. If we want to discuss if Bret wasn't as good as Orton then that's a different subject to what I believe Bret refers to as workrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 I watched the 20 or so Prime Times on the network and just don't see this Hart Foundation wasn't good talking point. They usually have the best match on the show, or close to it. Bob Orton Jr is indeed their closest competition and beats them about half the time they directly compete. Are there any six man tags they joined up for on tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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