Women in the WWE

[Matt D]

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

[BillThompson]

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

 

This is true, but I find the criteria Matt is applying in this situation to be pedantic and pointless. It's not judging the work, but judging the work based on potential future work.

[jushin muta liger]

 

 

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

This is true, but I find the criteria Matt is applying in this situation to be pedantic and pointless. It's not judging the work, but judging the work based on potential future work.

Bill, I think Matt Farmer is trying to say that the women are handled a lot different on the main roster than what they are in NXT cause of the situation of the television production on Mondays, Tuesdays and PPV Sundays. And he's also right that a lot of the women there at the Performance Center are green. Sasha Banks had only been wrestling for five years with her only experience being with New England Indys and WWE along with Charlotte being trained from the ground up.

 

He's saying that the women have to be in these crazy situations on the main roster of having their match time cut down continuously until most of the stuff they want to do is thrown out by the agent and producers backstage.

 

The women have the extreme short end of the stick but this happens to a lot of male talent there as well. It happened to Daniel Bryan when he got there. It happened to Cesaro and etc. it all depends if Vince and Dunn will give them the time once they get called up. It doesn't matter how talented you are in the entertainment business when you given a bad script or bad direction to showcase something that management wants. They can get no direction and do a kick ass match but get a mouthful from management backstage for it cause it wasn't their view for what the match is. They are petty like that.

 

What gives me personal hope is the match Sasha had with Charlotte on Main Event in January and they had a good match in that 5 or 7 minutes they had. If they can do that on the main roster, they will be fine and they will start turning heads. They have the talent and they are being trusted by the brass of NXT to the point that Sasha is being the last match of the night and is now on most the posters of NXT shows. You could make a case they are positioning Sasha as the ace of NXT with Owens being in this feud with Cena, Zayn and Itami being out due to injury and the weird positioning they are doing with Finn Balor. She is starting to look like one of the main players for them which is a testament to her and her work.

 

I had high hopes for Paige when she got up cause of what I saw in NXT and they gave her time to work with Tamina on Extreme Rules 2014 but the fans reacted like it was any other divas match. I personally liked that match and if you put that same match in NXT at that time in 2014, people would be praising it.

 

The women's matches needs time from the management and management needs to train the audience to pay attention to the divas matches instead going to the bathroom or checking their phones. Plain and simple.

[Matt D]

My realistic expectations are these:

 

1.) Women get the opportunity to work very good matches in NXT

2.) Women get called up.

3.) Women have no chances to have good matches.

4.) I stop caring about them because I'm not all that interested in 5-7 minute long divas matches, even ones which are technically well worked

5.) I'm more interested in things like Sasha vs Becky, and the next crop of NXT female talent get the opportunity and direction to work those matches.

6.) I care about those matches and the cycle continues.

 

This is the one situation I can think of where I'm going to care about good/great matches more than good/great wrestlers.

 

On some level, I think Bill's point is this:

 

What's the point to NOT being "green" if it's just going to leave to pointless empty five minute popcorn filler TV matches? Ultimately, who cares who's less green/more experienced if they never get to show it?

 

I think it's an economy of scale issue since this comes up a lot with GOAT. I'm personally interested in a ten minute Regal TV match. I'm not sure I'd be as interested in a five minute Regal TV match. On the flip side, I'm sort of interested in some of the Superstars/Divas matches on Main Event that get more time than the ones on Raw/Smackdown, so I'm consistent in that regard, at least, but those matches are relatively few and far between.

 

So basically, yeah, Matt's right, and the poster child for his argument is probably Paige. I know that came up a lot on the reaction shows last year. Ultimately, I don't think being right matters in a practical sense here. In this case, far, far more so than most, opportunity is EVERYTHING.

[Badlittlekitten]

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

[Grimmas]

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

See now you are veering into sexist talk.

 

I would put Sasha on the level of all, if not the majority of WWE midcarders. Charlotte has as much potential as any WWE midcarder, probably more. Bayley has the potential to be more over than anyone in the WWE midcard. Becky, we will see.

 

Yes, we would all love the WWE to care about things that aren't in the main event. However, saying the divas are lesser wrestlers sometimes borders on sexist behaviour.

[WingedEagle]

 

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

See now you are veering into sexist talk.

 

I would put Sasha on the level of all, if not the majority of WWE midcarders. Charlotte has as much potential as any WWE midcarder, probably more. Bayley has the potential to be more over than anyone in the WWE midcard. Becky, we will see.

 

Yes, we would all love the WWE to care about things that aren't in the main event. However, saying the divas are lesser wrestlers sometimes borders on sexist behaviour.

 

 

Depends on if we're now treating #givedivasachance as a shoot or simply a marketing tag. They can be utilized 1000% better than they currently are on Raw/Smackdown/PPVs. There is nothing to suggest they can draw and grow the business in a meaningful way.

[Badlittlekitten]

Sasha is head and shoulders above the rest. The others couldn't lace the Miz's boots. I don't know if Bayley will get over in WWE but she is their ideal diva character. AJ Lee's dubious jailbaiting spliced with classic diva retardation.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

See now you are veering into sexist talk.

 

I would put Sasha on the level of all, if not the majority of WWE midcarders. Charlotte has as much potential as any WWE midcarder, probably more. Bayley has the potential to be more over than anyone in the WWE midcard. Becky, we will see.

 

Yes, we would all love the WWE to care about things that aren't in the main event. However, saying the divas are lesser wrestlers sometimes borders on sexist behaviour.

 

 

Depends on if we're now treating #givedivasachance as a shoot or simply a marketing tag. They can be utilized 1000% better than they currently are on Raw/Smackdown/PPVs. There is nothing to suggest they can draw and grow the business in a meaningful way.

 

 

In UFC women draw. In NXT women draw. Those are the only two promotions that have treated men and women with equal respect. Does that mean it would work in the WWE, obviously not. Does that mean we dismiss the idea, obviously not.

 

Sasha is head and shoulders above the rest. The others couldn't lace the Miz's boots. I don't know if Bayley will get over in WWE but she is their ideal diva character. AJ Lee's dubious jailbaiting spliced with classic diva retardation.

If you believe no other diva on the rest is in the same league as The Miz, than I don't know what to tell you.

 

Also, way to hammer home the point that you don't feel women are at men's level but throwing around terms like jailbait and retardation to describe a character. There is nothing mentally challenged or jailbaitesue about Bayley's character. To propose such an idea, shows how little you think of women.

[Badlittlekitten]

No it shows how little you pay attention. The last time I checked Bayley was playing with robots, talking like a simple twelve year old. And like skippy, hair twirling AJ we know it's aimed at creepy clammy men like yourself (if you wanna throw insults!) rather than children, cos WWE is cynical like that.

[Grimmas]

No it shows how little you pay attention. The last time I checked Bayley was playing with robots, talking like a simple twelve year old. And like skippy, hair twirling AJ we know it's aimed at creepy clammy men like yourself (if you wanna throw insults!) rather than children, cos WWE is cynical like that.

 

Being aimed at children, does not mean you are jailbait. Being aimed for children does not mean you are retarded.

 

AJ was aimed at perverts? I'm a pervert, because I think the talented women on the roster should get a chance to be showcased?

 

[Badlittlekitten]

I'm a sexist because I don't think the divas are particularly good?

[stomperspc]

 

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

See now you are veering into sexist talk.

 

I would put Sasha on the level of all, if not the majority of WWE midcarders. Charlotte has as much potential as any WWE midcarder, probably more. Bayley has the potential to be more over than anyone in the WWE midcard. Becky, we will see.

 

Yes, we would all love the WWE to care about things that aren't in the main event. However, saying the divas are lesser wrestlers sometimes borders on sexist behaviour.

 

 

Is he necessarily though? Is saying that women wrestlers currently – as a collective group – are less ready to fill important roles on WWE television automatically a (sexist) indictment of their talent or merely a comment on the current landscape?

 

Now and again when discussing baseball with my mom, she’ll say she doesn’t understand why women are not and/or could not play in the major leagues. She doesn’t understand why they can’t find some talented girls and groom them. My response is that women certainly could in the sense that there is not this talent or skill gulf between women and men that would make that impossible. Realistically, however, it is a long way off from happening. Boys are playing tee ball by the time they are five, little league at eight, competitive high school programs, and sometimes college baseball. A young girl is far more likely to be funneled into softball not long after little league age and almost always by high school. Of all the males that play baseball seriously through high school, only a fraction reach the major leagues and even fewer are what we would define as successful players. There are very, very few women lucky enough to even play baseball in high school. The structure/learning system is completely unbalanced and until that is fixed – which would take several generations to bear fruit under the most optimistic scenario – its very, very unlikely a a female baseball player would be able to reach the majors (even if through no fault of her own).

 

Wrestling is obviously a bit different but the same ideas still apply. The pool of women pro wrestlers is larger than amateur female baseball players but still a fraction of the pool of male pro wrestlers. A women wrestler on the indies is going to have far fewer quality opponents to work against and learn from than her male counterparts. Out of the X-amount of male pro wrestlers, how many actually become legitimately great? There are far fewer women wrestlers which means the odds are even slimmer that several all become legitimately great at one time. I am not sure all of the high quality NXT-type programs in the world are going to change that until there is simply a high volume of women becoming wrestling fans, become wrestlers and getting the opportunities to work with quality opponents in different environments.

 

Women can certainly main event and be top quality wrestlers from pure talent/skill standpoints. I think it might be a bit idealistic to expect that to happen overnight and to say that the pool of quality female wrestlers is significantly smaller than male wrestlers at this point in time isn’t sexist. It’s probably just the reality.

[Grimmas]

I'm a sexist because I don't think the divas are particularly good?

No you are sexist, because you think they are jailbait, retarded and all of them (except Sasha) are worse than the Miz.

 

 

 

I'd rather WWE devote more time to crafting compelling characters and fresh storylines for the mid card guys than the divas - who have a fraction of their talent.

See now you are veering into sexist talk.

 

I would put Sasha on the level of all, if not the majority of WWE midcarders. Charlotte has as much potential as any WWE midcarder, probably more. Bayley has the potential to be more over than anyone in the WWE midcard. Becky, we will see.

 

Yes, we would all love the WWE to care about things that aren't in the main event. However, saying the divas are lesser wrestlers sometimes borders on sexist behaviour.

 

 

Is he necessarily though? Is saying that women wrestlers currently – as a collective group – are less ready to fill important roles on WWE television automatically a (sexist) indictment of their talent or merely a comment on the current landscape?

 

Now and again when discussing baseball with my mom, she’ll say she doesn’t understand why women are not and/or could not play in the major leagues. She doesn’t understand why they can’t find some talented girls and groom them. My response is that women certainly could in the sense that there is not this talent or skill gulf between women and men that would make that impossible. Realistically, however, it is a long way off from happening. Boys are playing tee ball by the time they are five, little league at eight, competitive high school programs, and sometimes college baseball. A young girl is far more likely to be funneled into softball not long after little league age and almost always by high school. Of all the males that play baseball seriously through high school, only a fraction reach the major leagues and even fewer are what we would define as successful players. There are very, very few women lucky enough to even play baseball in high school. The structure/learning system is completely unbalanced and until that is fixed – which would take several generations to bear fruit under the most optimistic scenario – its very, very unlikely a a female baseball player would be able to reach the majors (even if through no fault of her own).

 

Wrestling is obviously a bit different but the same ideas still apply. The pool of women pro wrestlers is larger than amateur female baseball players but still a fraction of the pool of male pro wrestlers. A women wrestler on the indies is going to have far fewer quality opponents to work against and learn from than her male counterparts. Out of the X-amount of male pro wrestlers, how many actually become legitimately great? There are far fewer women wrestlers which means the odds are even slimmer that several all become legitimately great at one time. I am not sure all of the high quality NXT-type programs in the world are going to change that until there is simply a high volume of women becoming wrestling fans, become wrestlers and getting the opportunities to work with quality opponents in different environments.

 

Women can certainly main event and be top quality wrestlers from pure talent/skill standpoints. I think it might be a bit idealistic to expect that to happen overnight and to say that the pool of quality female wrestlers is significantly smaller than male wrestlers at this point in time isn’t sexist. It’s probably just the reality.

 

Nobody is saying that SummerSlam should be headlined by women.

 

The pool of women is smaller, nobody is arguing that.

 

All that anybody is trying to say is that there is women out there right now who can be developed into draws and should, probably, be given that chance.

 

Nothing you said, Stomper, I have any issue with.

[Grimmas]

To bring it back to the real topic:

 

If you make a real plan to treat women in the WWE, the way they are treated in NXT, would a division built around Sasha, Charlotte, Paige, Emma, Bayley and Becky, be good enough?

Would that be worth trying?

[Badlittlekitten]

No you are sexist, because you think they are jailbait, retarded and all of them (except Sasha) are worse than the Miz.

It's not what I think, that's the WWEs attitude and portrayal of women and has been forever. I don't think Charlotte, Bayley, Brie, Fox, Emma etc. are any where near as good as the Miz on any level. That doesn't mean I hate women.

 

Fact is I want women's wrestling to do well. I'm a fan of any wrestling that's good. I watched the majority of the Shimmer catalogue and found it fun for the most part. Outside of a handful (Sara, Mellissa, Serena, Madison Eagles) the work wasn't particularly good. I don't know if that is on training, the talent pool or opportunities but putting your blinders on, covering your ears and shouting'sexist!' is the easier answer I guess. But Shimmer had other positives- distinctive characters, logical booking, simple effective storytelling . . things that WWE aren't capable of outside of NXT. Sub par wrestlers in pointless paper thin programs isn't something I want to see.

[overbooked]

I think a division with those workers would be well worth trying, but only if it is given proper attention and time to develop. There would have to be real investment in creating better storylines, giving them all time to develop their characters, and probably a fair bit of room for trial and error. Then there is the obvious thing around giving the matches far more time.

 

There would need to be a re-education of the fans, to a point, and I think getting rid of the 'Divas' tag would be a good start, followed by just treating the division right and not as a sideshow. I doubt it would all work immediately, but if WWE is serious about broadening its fanbase (including women) then a proper women's division could work.

 

However, as many WWE cards seem built around peaks and troughs, with the Divas match the obvious piss break, they would perhaps have to work around that and have something else to replace it - more comedy matches from the male roster or similar? I don't know...

[goc]

El Torito needs work.

[Grimmas]

 

No you are sexist, because you think they are jailbait, retarded and all of them (except Sasha) are worse than the Miz.

It's not what I think, that's the WWEs attitude and portrayal of women and has been forever. I don't think Charlotte, Bayley, Brie, Fox, Emma etc. are any where near as good as the Miz on any level. That doesn't mean I hate women.

 

Fact is I want women's wrestling to do well. I'm a fan of any wrestling that's good. I watched the majority of the Shimmer catalogue and found it fun for the most part. Outside of a handful (Sara, Mellissa, Serena, Madison Eagles) the work wasn't particularly good. I don't know if that is on training, the talent pool or opportunities but putting your blinders on, covering your ears and shouting'sexist!' is the easier answer I guess. But Shimmer had other positives- distinctive characters, logical booking, simple effective storytelling . . things that WWE aren't capable of outside of NXT. Sub par wrestlers in pointless paper thin programs isn't something I want to see.

 

You are trying to argue things I am not saying. Yes, as a whole, there is a lot more better men wrestlers than women. Yes, the WWE has treated women like shit. I'm not going to sit here and debate Miz vs Charlotte, Bayley, Emma, because all three of them have had better matches than the Miz and it's pointless to the conversation.

 

So, should they try to push Sasha Banks into a featured role in the company? How could everyone of her NXT special matches not fit into the semi-main slot of the WWE ppvs? Where does Sasha-Becky fit into your WWE/NXT MOTY's?

 

What are you arguing here? That the WWE should never try? No women can be on par with the upper midcard WWE guys? Do you feel the women's division should always be treated like the minis? What does the UFC and NXT's portrayal of women tell us? Nothing?

[Matt Farmer]

 

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

 

This is true, but I find the criteria Matt is applying in this situation to be pedantic and pointless. It's not judging the work, but judging the work based on potential future work.

 

So my criteria because you disagree with it is pedantic and pointless? I thought this message boards purpose was to discuss the matters of professional wrestling?

 

Because you think a match or a wrestler is an all time great or the best thing since slice bread and you disagree you feel the need to attack someone and discredit their educated opinion?

 

I disagreed with your opinion and gave my point of view of I why I felt differently. I judge matches that are not only planned out extensively but appear to be planned out by what goes on in the ring and that effects how I feel about that match.

[Matt Farmer]

I'd like to add that I am a fan of both women, I think the world of Sasha Banks and think she has a world of potential. Becky Lynch in my opinion is the best female wrestler employed by WWE. Their match was good, really good but there were things in the match that I did not like.

[goc]

Why is it fair to label people as sexist who have pretty much said "They should feature the women better and give them more time but I don't think they can be main event and I'm not sure they would draw a bigger female audience?"

Is that really such a terrible opinion to have?

Is it really more discriminatory than completely dismissing the idea of giving time to minis?
Is El Torito not a great worker?

Did he not carry someone who is universally maligned to a series of matches that almost everyone liked and praised?

[El-P]

Is it really more discriminatory than completely dismissing the idea of giving time to minis?

 

Holyshit. Really ? (It sounds like something Vince Russo would say, no offense, but still)

[Grimmas]

Why is it fair to label people as sexist who have pretty much said "They should feature the women better and give them more time but I don't think they can be main event and I'm not sure they would draw a bigger female audience?"

Is that really such a terrible opinion to have?

 

 

That's not what he said. He said Bayley is a jailbait retarded character. Every wrestler (except Sasha) can't lace The Miz's boots and that AJ was just there to get creeps to watch.

 

What in those statements treats men and women equally?

 

If his opinion was as you stated there would be no problem. I would disagree, but it wouldn't be a sexist attitude.

 

BTW, El Torito is on my list for GWE.

[goc]

 

Is it really more discriminatory than completely dismissing the idea of giving time to minis?

 

Holyshit. Really ? (It sounds like something Vince Russo would say, no offense, but still)

 

I don't see it. Nowhere have I said "the Divas suck and shouldn't even be on TV" I have said repeatedly that I think they should use them better and give them more time. If I had said "if they aren't doing bra and panties matches in a mud pit then they shouldn't be on TV" I guess I might see what you're saying.