Women in the WWE

[Dylan Waco]

Jimmy Redman with a great, great post. One of the best in board history.

 

Now for a few quick comments.

 

I hate to say it but I think AJ was clearly geared to pervs at times and Bayley did originally have a jailbaitish vibe to her though that was dropped pretty quickly.

 

I don't think Matt Farmer's point is irrelevant BUT I do think it bodes well that the NXT house show matches with the women have been great. We will see how things pan out going forward.

 

Finally I have no problem with the idea of women as main eventers but it should happen organically not as some sort of social experiment. If you think fans reacted bad to Roman Reigns and Batista, imagine trying to convince wrestling fans that Paige v. Nikki Bella is the the real main event of TLC because PROGRESS! The key should be to present the division and its performers in a more positive/serious light and actual deliver on what the fans want when and if it gets to the point where their are female stars capable of working on top.

[Ricky Jackson]

Redman's post was fantastic and redeems 7 pages of mostly garbage

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd co-sign that Kelly.

 

Only thing I disagree with is this line of thinking:

 

To answer the original question: there's no good reason they can't headline PPVs, and it should happen. But we all know the reasons why it isn't currently happening, as it would require a very stubborn 70 year old man to change 30 years of bad habits.

This was also the promoter who booked the War to Settle the Score and drew more (casual) female fans to the wrestling audience than anyone before him with a money angle built around a BS Women's title that meant nothing.

 

I don't agree that you can lay this solely at Vince's door. He sees his audience as being mostly blue-collar men. WWE for certain has deep Alec-Baldwin-in-30-Rock-style breakdowns of audience demographics. You know they do because, John Cena. They know x% hardcore fans, male 15-30-something with y disposible income. x% grumpy older fan with y disposible income. x% kids who need to spend their parents' money. x% women. They know all this. What's going to draw best with the audience demographic? What did they work out? Well, women don't really give a shit about wrestling. The x% women in their audience are mostly mothers or partners dragged along. What might get over with women? WWE Total Divas. A reality show concept. Women watch reality shows. They don't watch wrestling. TV companies have a habit of responding to data trends by perpetuating the trends and reflecting them, not challenging them. It stands to reason too: if you're in the business of drawing ratings, you try to give an audience more of what they are telling you they want, not less. This is the same logic as Hollywood Blockbuster churn. What's the point of "challenging" an audience, when you can make billions of dollars just spooning them more of what they seem to mark out for anyway? Is every Hollywood producer or TV exec a stubborn 70-year old man? WWE isn't really doing much different from what other TV companies would do. Vince is the figurehead and we know he is hands on, so it's easy to personalise it and pin things on him. But the real question you'd have to ask yourself is ... after almost 50 years in the business and having promoted 1,000s upon 1,000s of shows, why do you think Vince might be a bit reticient to put women's wrestling on top? Is it:

 

A. Because he knows his audience and knows what draws.

 

or

 

B. Because he hates women and wants to see them suffer.

 

Answers on a postcard.

 

The company is a product of the audience as much as the audience is a product of the company. Did McDonalds make America fat or did fat Americans make McDonalds? If the McDonalds exec puts salad on the menu year-on-year but the Big Mac is consistently his top draw, does he push the Big Mac or the salad? Same question. You cannot blame a company for pushing what draws. Their responsibility is to make money, not redress social ills.

[El-P]

A. Because he knows his audience and knows what draws.

 

As showed by the Batista push last year. And the Roman Reigns push this year.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

A. Because he knows his audience and knows what draws.

As showed by the Batista push last year. And the Roman Reigns push this year.

 

As shown by him being easily the most successful promoter of all time and running a half-billion-dollar revenue company that draws all over the world on a scale never seen before in wrestling before, yes.

 

I mean, if you want to go down the route of pointing to track record. I'd rather not turn this into another Vince thread, but the company is still drawing. Even if the Network has lost money. Reigns has headlined three 10,000+ gates this year already. It's not like the gates plummetted during Reigns's run. Recent losses are solely down to the Network, nothing to do with Reigns.

 

My point was only that putting a woman's match on top even for a single PPV is asking the promoter to make a risk where he needs to take none. It's not like the demand for women in the main event is so high that it would actually be worth doing.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Redman's post was fantastic and redeems 7 pages of mostly garbage

Indeed. Fucking insufferable.

[Grimmas]

 

 

A. Because he knows his audience and knows what draws.

As showed by the Batista push last year. And the Roman Reigns push this year.

 

As shown by him being easily the most successful promoter of all time and running a half-billion-dollar revenue company that draws all over the world on a scale never seen before in wrestling before, yes.

 

I mean, if you want to go down the route of pointing to track record. I'd rather not turn this into another Vince thread, but the company is still drawing. Even if the Network has lost money. Reigns has headlined three 10,000+ gates this year already. It's not like the gates plummetted during Reigns's run. Recent losses are solely down to the Network, nothing to do with Reigns.

 

My point was only that putting a woman's match on top even for a single PPV is asking the promoter to make a risk where he needs to take none. It's not like the demand for women in the main event is so high that it would actually be worth doing.

 

Nobody is saying do it on a whim.

 

What people are saying is that if women in the WWE are treated in the way they are treated in NXT then you would be in a position where you could headline a b-show with women.

 

I don't think anybody would complain if a NXT special is headlined by women at this point.

[JerryvonKramer]

And what I'm saying is that it won't happen if there doesn't seem like a viable commerical driver for it to happen. And if it doesn't for that reason (that there is no discernable demand), you can't then point at the promoter and blame him for it. He's going to stick to making money.

 

Vince has always been good at being able to project what the average casual viewer will think. Take his prediliction for Big Men over little guys like Daniel Bryan. That's not just because he has a hard on for body builders, it's because he knows that the average guy thinks "there's no way the big guy loses to the little guy". That's why he's always pushed big guys, even when little guys (Savage to an extent, Shawn, Eddie, Rey, Bryan) have proved him wrong. Because the man-in-the-street marks for the big guy. A guy like Sid can just turn up and be over. As wrestling purists and hardcores, we don't like that. As a man looking to maximise profits, Vince doesn't have to challenge the perception of the casual viewer, he can play off it for $. He probably saw his dad trying to "fight" the casual fan in a way by his weird experiment with Bob Backlund, where despite all logic, despite Superstar Graham being over like rover, despite Backlund not having the best look or easiest style to get into or any discernible charisma, his dad proceeded to push him to the moon and keep him on top for 6 years. I have a theory Vince Sr did that in a Trading Places style bet with Eddie Graham ... but probably the truth is he wanted to try to "re-educate" the fans to appreciate wrestling and make his product more wrestling-orientated. Literally the minute Vince Jr took over, he dumped Backlund and brought in Hogan. He didn't do it because he hates wrestling and loves muscles, he did it because he knew Hogan might get over with casual fans in a way Backlund never could. And a lot of that is because he was 6'10 with 24-inch pythons.

 

Again, if you're a promoter and you make money, do you listen to the money coming in or do you listen to the little smart fans telling you that you should be pushing more wrestling on top? He's only going to do it if there's a commercial driver and it is proven that fans (en masse) want to see good wrestling.

 

All of this is true of the women. NXT is a little hardcore fan's wet dream of a place and in a sense the more successful things are down there, the more it will ghettoise itself and turn itself into its own thing. Vince won't look at it for lessons, he'll look at it and say "great, that product is serving that audience very well, give them more of that. We'll keep serving up what we do on Raw, cos that's working too." Until there's a commerical driver, there's no need in his eyes to change anything.

 

 

Imagine being in management, walking into his office and saying "I think, boss, we should give women more time on TV and maybe then we could headline B-shows with them. It's working on NXT. What do you think?"

 

What is your honest assessment of Vince's reaction?

 

What's his first question?

 

"Why? Is it going to make us more money?"

 

"Oh, no, but y'know it might be nice for the women ... yeah?"

 

 

"Quit wasting my time I'm busy"

 

Do you see the conversation going a different way? How do you sell him on the idea.

 

Not trying to be a dick, being serious.

[Matt D]

I'd lead with this:

 

 

Other people would lead with this:

 

[JerryvonKramer]

I think that's a tremendous point Matt, and that's how you'd have to start building the business case. If you can try to convince Vince that there's a bit of money he's missing out on, he might bite and do it.

[Grimmas]

[Badlittlekitten]

Watched a couple of Charlotte matches, vs Sasha and vs Bayley. The first was a very good match. Banks is already a good ring general. Flair isn't very good at garnering sympathy but her pissed off come back was good. This had a hot finishing stretch. Occasional sloppiness from both girls but nothing near horrible. Good match.

 

The Bayley match (takeover 2) wasn't very good at all. The only bright spot were Bayley's comebacks. Some bad botches and a shitty looking moonsault from Charlotte. Doubt anybody would be calling this 'really good' if it were two guys.

 

Might watch the three way later.

 

From that sample and other stuff I've seen, Charlotte doesn't have any particularly good offence. Her chops suck and her finisher is rotten even by WWE standards. She also isn't very sympathetic as a babyface. On the positive side, she's got good size and presence, shows good fire and has a couple of cool spots (electric chair drop, moonsault when she can hit it).

 

With enough improvements to her striking and selling as well as some character refinement, you never know. She may be as good as Miz one day.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

creepy clammy men like yourself.

Says "Bad Little Kitten". Is that your Grindr name, too? Seriously, I'm looking for some fun.

 

Oi, homophobe!

[JerryvonKramer]

I think that's a tremendous point Matt, and that's how you'd have to start building the business case. If you can try to convince Vince that there's a bit of money he's missing out on, he might bite and do it.

This is only a starting point though. You are then faced with the problem of how to try to get fans of Hunger Games or Jennifer Lawrence who aren't wrestling fans to become interested enough in wrestling to the point where they are willing to spend money. While ALSO making sure that the existing audience doesn't shit on it and boo her out of the building. Which is a very difficult proposition.

 

Then you look at the time and effort required to do that and you look at the projected extra revenue that would come in if it pays off.

 

Then you do a cost-benefit analysis and work out whether it is worth trying to make a wrestling-version of a Jennifer Lawrence.

 

If you are Vince, do you go for it? Doesn't seem that compelling to me.

[Grimmas]

 

I think that's a tremendous point Matt, and that's how you'd have to start building the business case. If you can try to convince Vince that there's a bit of money he's missing out on, he might bite and do it.

This is only a starting point though. You are then faced with the problem of how to try to get fans of Hunger Games or Jennifer Lawrence who aren't wrestling fans to become interested enough in wrestling to the point where they are willing to spend money. Which is a very difficult proposition.

 

Then you look at the time and effort required to do that and you look at the projected extra revenue that would come in if it pays off.

 

Then you do a cost-benefit analysis and work out whether it is worth trying to make a wrestling-version of a Jennifer Lawrence.

 

If you are Vince, do you go for it? Doesn't seem that compelling to me.

 

Hunger Games got girls who weren't fans of action movies to see them. It's not about getting hunger games fans, it's about giving women someone to cheer for.

[Matt D]

Parv, I'm going to repost this from DVDVR, because it's more amusing than anything else. I actually think there's something to it though. I'm not 100% what, mind you:

 

 

AJ, Paige, Emma, Bayley, Becky, Summer Rae, Charlotte, Sasha. (give or take Tamina and the Funkadactyls)

 

They had the basis for a "high school drama" sort of woman's roster last year.

 

the chic nerd, the punk rebel, the sticker-loving nice girl, whatever the hell Becky Lynch is, the blonde cheerleader mean girl, the blonde jock mean girl, the Boss mean girl, etc.

 

I have no idea how any of that stuff works and it still seemed super obvious to me. They could have run a Disney Channel teen show last year if they wanted to.

 

Ahem. . .

 

AJ: cosplaying nerd who dreams of being a comic book artist.

Bellas: Nikki is the all-american athlete/teen model while Brie is the Health Club president who falls for Goat McHerdy, as they're the only vegans in the entire school.

Paige: supposedly wild goth girl who's actually the most sane member of her family.

Bayley: the school sweetheart who gets friendzoned by all the guys because she's just too nice. Also loves ponies and quirky dolls and erasers shaped like ice cream cones.

Emma: always rude to Bayley, but secretly harbors feelings for her.

Lana: exchange student who quickly adapts an American accent and eventually runs away with the dance teacher.

Becky: the other exchange student who maintains her Irish accent and who fights with Lana over the dance teacher. Wears Riverdance clogs all the time, even in gym.

Naomi: smartest girl in class who wins the dance scholarship to Julliard over Lana and Becky.

Tamina: school enforcer who just shows up and kicks ass when needed.

Sasha: ultra-cool chick who doesn't give a fuck about you or anything that you do. Also, serves as the school DJ with a Rastafarian cousin who drives a smoked-out van.

Cameron: Bianca Dupree. Runs school website a al Gossip Girl.

Charlotte: comes from a once well-to-do family, but her dad blew the family savings.

Natalya: founder of the Felines are Friends Forever Club. Only wears pink and black. Pals around with Tyson and Claudio. All the girls secretly love Claudio.

Summer/Alexa: mean cheerleader snobs.

Carmella: says that she's a made girl. No one questions it.

Stephanie: super rich girl whose daddy owns 80% of the town. Has a personal assistant named Jericho. Freaks out when her long-moved away brother is mentioned.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Hunger Games got girls who weren't fans of action movies to see them. It's not about getting hunger games fans, it's about giving women someone to cheer for.

Getting women who watch films but who don't tend to watch action films is one thing, getting women who watch TV but aren't really into sports period let alone wrestling is an entirely different proposition. Then asking them to sit around for 2 hours while they wait for the one woman they are cheering for to come on. THEN wanting them to pay money for a ticket to a live show or sign up to the network. It's a huge ask.

[Grimmas]

 

Hunger Games got girls who weren't fans of action movies to see them. It's not about getting hunger games fans, it's about giving women someone to cheer for.

Getting women who watch films but who don't tend to watch action films is one thing, getting women who watch TV but aren't really into sports period let alone wrestling is an entirely different proposition. Then asking them to sit around for 2 hours while they wait for the one woman they are cheering for to come on. THEN wanting them to pay money for a ticket to a live show or sign up to the network. It's a huge ask.

 

I think Mad Max: Fury Road is a better example.

 

Hunger Games had Jennifer Lawrence who is beloved by all, a love story and stems from a young adult series which is beloved. Girls seeing that is not a big leap.

 

However, Mad Max: Fury Road's success is amazing. Here we have a movie based on a 30 year old Australian movie series that is pure action. The former star is insane and hated by most and it's essentially a 2 hour long car chase movie. However, it's being billed as feminist movement and has a lot of those tones. What has happened? Major success.

 

If my wife will go and see a Mad Max movie and then will want to see it again, then anything is possible.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's still not a very good business pitch to Vince, Steven.

 

Women have been watching movies for a 100 years. There have been strong female characters in action films before: think Sarah Conner, think Ripley. It's not that amazing that women are going to watch films. They watched Alien and Terminator 2 as well. They also watched Batman films. They also watch Game of Thrones. So what?

 

I think the gap between the idea of women (en masse) watching action movies and watching wrestling is wide enough for the analogy to stop being useful.

 

I've heard people say that their partners or wives have got into the WWE Total Divas show without ever being interested in wrestling. Vince obviously knows that too and sees the figures. How do you convince him away from thinking that women don't really like wrestling and trying to manufacture the success of a Hunger Games or Fury Road in wrestling probably isn't worth the time, cost and effort?

[Grimmas]

It's still not a very good business pitch to Vince, Steven.

 

Women have been watching movies for a 100 years. There have been strong female characters in action films before: think Sarah Conner, think Ripley. It's not that amazing that women are going to watch films. They watched Alien and Terminator 2 as well. They also watched Batman films. They also watch Game of Thrones. So what?

 

I think the gap between the idea of women (en masse) watching action movies and watching wrestling is wide enough for the analogy to stop being useful.

 

I've heard people say that their partners or wives have got into the WWE Divas show without ever being interested in wrestling. Vince obviously knows that too and sees the figures. How do you convince him away from thinking that women don't really like wrestling and trying to manufacture the success of a Hunger Games or Fury Road in wrestling probably isn't worth the time, cost and effort?

 

What cost? Time, so you take 5 minutes away from a midcard act he doesn't care about and give it to the divas. Effort? Sure, the effort of going from treating women like a bathroom break to treating them like a viable part of their roster.

 

What is the risk? Will people really turn off, if matches like the ones on the NXT specials are on the WWE specials and are taking up that much time? Will people turn off a 3 hour Raw if the women's match is treated with more respect and gives the women a chance to have good matches?

 

What is the real risk of the WWE main show treating women like the way NXT treats their women?

[JerryvonKramer]

You've moved the goalposts there Steven. We were talking about getting wrestling over with women by giving them "someone to cheer for" which would generate more income.

 

Now you're talking about giving mid-card women wrestlers more time on the card. They are two different things. The latter is possible but it's not a business decision and generates no extra income or extra fans. It's just giving a slightly different product to existing fans.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think there is a particular type of female wrestler that appeals to a female audience. Think Lita, think AJ Lee, think Bayley. Someone presented as an earthy, girl-next-door, tomboy type, rather than a sex symbol. A girl who is "one of us". There are enough stories of them selling shirts to girls and being their heroes that you can see the trend.

 

There is the potential there for that type of character to monetise the female viewers that they have. But I don't believe there is a significant market of female viewers that don't watch wrestling but would be drawn to wrestling if they just presented the women better. Maybe a small one, made up of the kind of women who will watch sports, watch UFC and are impressed and empowered by Ronda's success. But I don't see the potential as large enough to really be worth it. The key in making women draws in WWE would be to make them draws to the wrestling audience - i.e. the predominantly male wrestling audience.

 

WWE has successfully tapped into a female viewing audience that has no interest in wresting itself by giving them Total Divas. They don't want to watch wrestling. They want to watch catty reality TV, and this one happens to be about female wrestlers.

[JerryvonKramer]

You and I are very much on the same page, Jimmy Redman.

 

One thing I've wondered about is whether a Bull Nakano type could get over as a kind of female Brock Lesnar. I think the wrestling audience has always been drawn to asskickers from Dick the Bruiser to the Road Warriors to Austin to Brock in the modern day, that concept seems to get over time and again.

 

Do you think a total female bad ass could get over with the male fans? Trouble is, that you need good competition which means a whole roster of good talent for her to roll over .... or (and this wasn't good when Chyna was around) have her take on men.

[Matt D]

I realize we're in different times, but so much is said about what Cyndi Lauper brought to the table during the initial rock'n'wrestling boom. What demo did she draw in?

[Jimmy Redman]

You and I are very much on the same page, Jimmy Redman.

 

One thing I've wondered about is whether a Bull Nakano type could get over as a kind of female Brock Lesnar. I think the wrestling audience has always been drawn to asskickers from Dick the Bruiser to the Road Warriors to Austin to Brock in the modern day, that concept seems to get over time and again.

 

Do you think a total female bad ass could get over with the male fans? Trouble is, that you need good competition which means a whole roster of good talent for her to roll over .... or (and this wasn't good when Chyna was around) have her take on men.

The answer to this is Awesome Kong/Kharma, and yes it did work. In TNA's heyday (so to speak) the women were always the highest rated segments, and Kong was the highest rating woman of them all. Her WWE run was cut short for personal reasons, but she was over the minute she walked in and I'm sure was going to be successful for as long as they kept booking her as a monster.

 

Now that I mention it, that's something that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread yet, which speaks to just how irrelevant TNA has become. The women's division was always treated decently in TNA, and at the height of their reach in terms of viewers - 2008-2010 or so - the women were almost always the highest rated segment of the shows, and really the only aspect of TNA that delivered consistent results. So there's another answer for the question of "What happens when women are put in a position to draw?"