Women in the WWE

[goc]

Oh, also if they didn't have a great worker on their roster doing absolutely nothing I would have never brought up the minis as a comparison at all. But they do, El Torito is there and he's a great worker and they aren't just using him badly and giving him shitty 4-6 minute matches they aren't doing ANYTHING with him.

 

Is it really insane to think he might be able to sell some merchandise if you give him some time on a 3 hour show that needs variety because it overexposes the hell out of Seth Rollins & The Authority?

[El-P]

Is it really insane to think he might be able to sell some merchandise if you give him some time on a 3 hour show that needs variety because it overexposes the hell out of Seth Rollins & The Authority?

 

Of course. But it has nothing to do with the representation of "minis" on WWE TV. Well, midgets. Oh fuck it, dwarves.

 

Still. Women represent half of the human race. So, just a little bit of equality should not even be a debate at this point, especially when they have some really talented girls on the roster, that's all.

[Hector]

Why the fuck does this guy keep bringing up minis? If you're going to use minis as an apt comparison then it should be within the context of CMLL or AAA, not WWE where they just have Torito and Hornswoggle.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

Why is it fair to label people as sexist who have pretty much said "They should feature the women better and give them more time but I don't think they can be main event and I'm not sure they would draw a bigger female audience?"

Is that really such a terrible opinion to have?

 

That's not what he said. He said Bayley is a jailbait retarded character. Every wrestler (except Sasha) can't lace The Miz's boots and that AJ was just there to get creeps to watch.

 

What in those statements treats men and women equally?

 

If his opinion was as you stated there would be no problem. I would disagree, but it wouldn't be a sexist attitude

Blimey Grimmas you're even more dim than I originally thought.

[goc]

I never said they shouldn't do more with them or that they shouldn't give them more time. Nor did I say that they are already being booked well so hey why is everyone complying? But what does equality in wrestling mean? That they should get like a 1/3rd-1/2 of TV time? Half the PPV main events? Is there ANY evidence beyond maybe Mildred Burke that a female wrestler can actually draw at a main event level in the U.S.?

 

I realize that Shimmer is small scale but ROH, PWG & CHIKARA all started out at smaller scales than they are now and grew. Shimmer hasn't. That has to say SOMETHING about how much interest there is in serious women's wrestling. They were able to draw the highest rated segments on iMPACT when they featured the Knockouts Division well but it still didn't get TNA fans to buy PPVs.

 

Is Ronday Rousey really bringing in a giant new audience of female viewers for the UFC or is she mostly appealing to men who already watch UFC and like watching her because she's a dominant champion (a formula that usually draws in the UFC)

 

I just don't see any evidence that they can honestly become a main event draw but that doesn't mean they can't be a PART of drawing interest to the show. Because right now they probably aren't influencing a whole lot of people to watch Raw solely to see their segments.

 

 

Why the fuck does this guy keep bringing up minis? If you're going to use minis as an apt comparison then it should be within the context of CMLL or AAA, not WWE where they just have Torito and Hornswoggle.

Because they can bring in anyone they want to switch out of El Torito's dance partner(s) for a month or two.

[El-P]

Is there ANY evidence beyond maybe Mildred Burke that a female wrestler can actually draw at a main event level in the U.S.?

 

So no one should try. Ever. Even in 2015.

[goc]

Holy shit. Maybe we could just wait and see if they can actually not lose a ton of viewers in their segments before we immediately proclaim that they can and should be put into main events on PPVs.

[Grimmas]

Holy shit. Maybe we could just wait and see if they can actually not lose a ton of viewers in their segments before we immediately proclaim that they can and should be put into main events on PPVs.

The point of the thread is, why wouldn't they try to push women the way they do in NXT.

 

Bringing up minis, Mildred Burke and trying to wonder if Rhonda Rousey only draws the current viewers (bullshit, her McMann fight was the 3rd highest buyrate of the year) is irrelevant.

 

Nobody is saying put the divas in the main event of the next ppv. What people are saying is ride on the coat tails of the awesome Sasha Banks and Charlotte matches and have the main roster treat the women the same way NXT does and see what happens.

 

I believe they would be in a position to headline b-ppvs if you tried over time.

 

Agree or disagree?

[goc]

I have no problem with them doing what you are saying. I simply disagree that they would eventually get into the position you think they would. Right now the Divas division loses viewers based on the segment breakdowns I've seen.

 

If they got the division to a point where they were actually gaining viewers in their segments then I would say that it would be possible to do the B-PPV experiment. I just don't really think there is any evidence they'll eventually get there.

[Grimmas]

I have no problem with them doing what you are saying. I simply disagree that they would eventually get into the position you think they would. Right now the Divas division loses viewers based on the segment breakdowns I've seen.

 

If they got the division to a point where they were actually gaining viewers in their segments then I would say that it would be possible to do the B-PPV experiment. I just don't really think there is any evidence they'll eventually get there.

Using the fact the divas now lose viewers, when they are treated as a joke is weak.

 

Evidence it might work, NXT, UFC and TNA.

[LariatMMBOPPO]

Was the NXT house show advertised with the Women's title as the main event?

[WingedEagle]

I don't think you can make any case that the women have drawn a dime in NXT. I'm also not sure you can point to a single male wrestler who has either, though I'd be open to the numbers there, though they'll obviously be incredibly limited given that NXT has only run a few shows off campus.

[jushin muta liger]

Was the NXT house show advertised with the Women's title as the main event?

No, it wasn't. The two promo pics/posters for the recent tour had Owens, Balor, Sasha and Charlotte on one and Owens, Balor, Zayn, Sasha, Charlotte and Bailey on the other.

[Grimmas]

I don't think you can make any case that the women have drawn a dime in NXT. I'm also not sure you can point to a single male wrestler who has either, though I'd be open to the numbers there, though they'll obviously be incredibly limited given that NXT has only run a few shows off campus.

It doesn't matter if the women drew in NXT, because NXT is the draw not the wrestlers. The fact they can run a house show with women on top, or have the women as the semi-main on every show proves that it can work.

 

If NXT is a success than women can be featured in prominent roles and it be successful.

[dawho5]

Here's a question I had while reading through this.

 

What is the difference between "they need to use the talented women wrestlers more" and "they need to use their talented midcarders more" arguments at all? Yeah, they give guys who can work maybe 10 minutes or a bit more to put on good matches on TV. But do they do anything worthwhile about them to make the fans care in any way about them? Or do those guys have to get themselves over with whatever crap they are give? I will agree that there is a huge increase in scale as far as how little respect the women are given in the WWE. But the reality is that both situations aren't going to change as long as certain people are in charge of how the TV works. So arguing about whether it would draw as vehemently as has been going on the last few pages seems a bit much. If it is ever tried it will be done incrementally. The women management has faith in will get a chance at enough ten minutes matches to see if it gets a better reaction. If it does then maybe they get a semi-main on a show after a long while. If that works then maybe you start to see fifteen minutes on a PPV. Same kind of deal for pushing talented midcard guys.

 

I would argue that Bayley is heavily marketed towards young girls as an inspiration. It's pretty heavily put over by the announce team on NXT that way as well as by Bayley herself. I also feel like she plays the underdog role really well and Badlittlekitten is selling her well short of how good she is. But I will leave it at a respectful disagreement on that point. It is rather odd that they talk about how Bayley can inspire young girls to want to be wrestlers given the WWE's historical treatment of women.

[WingedEagle]

 

I don't think you can make any case that the women have drawn a dime in NXT. I'm also not sure you can point to a single male wrestler who has either, though I'd be open to the numbers there, though they'll obviously be incredibly limited given that NXT has only run a few shows off campus.

It doesn't matter if the women drew in NXT, because NXT is the draw not the wrestlers. The fact they can run a house show with women on top, or have the women as the semi-main on every show proves that it can work.

 

If NXT is a success than women can be featured in prominent roles and it be successful.

 

 

If NXT is the draw as you initially stated, how are the women -- or anything other than the NXT brand -- successful? Can't have it both ways.

[jcmmnx]

I think Charlotte/Sasha is the feud that could turn the perception of women on the main roster around. Sasha/Becky had the better match, but Sasha/Charlotte seem to work a more casual fan(aka less mat work) friendly style. There's no reason HHH couldn't put Charlotte in the Authority as the female face of WWE. Given his ties to Ric it makes sense. Once you've established her above the current women that's when you start bringing up the NXT girls to feud with her.

 

I think Bayley is a goldmine of merchandise waiting to happen, and is one of the best short tv match workers in the company. I'm interested to see a Sasha face run in NXT. I'm imaging a main roster feud between her and Charlotte based on Charlotte coming from a life of privilege and having everything handed to her while Sasha had to fight and claw her way to the WWE.

[BillThompson]

 

 

I think criteria is important. It's going to be an issue with the GWE list in general. I imagine Matt's idea of what makes for a good wrestler may differ from some of ours. Our criteria differ between one another. We can only get at truth here through watching matches and looking for patterns. Other people have different ways of getting at it.

 

This is true, but I find the criteria Matt is applying in this situation to be pedantic and pointless. It's not judging the work, but judging the work based on potential future work.

 

So my criteria because you disagree with it is pedantic and pointless? I thought this message boards purpose was to discuss the matters of professional wrestling?

 

Because you think a match or a wrestler is an all time great or the best thing since slice bread and you disagree you feel the need to attack someone and discredit their educated opinion?

 

I disagreed with your opinion and gave my point of view of I why I felt differently. I judge matches that are not only planned out extensively but appear to be planned out by what goes on in the ring and that effects how I feel about that match.

 

 

I have no issue with your opinion. As I said, you can dislike Sasha, Becky, that match, or anything all you want. You can think it's merely good, or they are merely good wrestlers. I have no issue with any of that, I take issue with your approach and how it is a pedantic and pointless one. There is no actual discussion that can come from what you wrote; because the answer is always, "They're green and therefore we don't know how good they actually are." I take issues with your entire idea of them being green, but when you present the opinion that "Guys, these are planned matches, we have to remember that." as if it is something that actually matters, there's nothing to discuss.

[Fando]

that sucks Misawa died while he was still green.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I don't think you can make any case that the women have drawn a dime in NXT. I'm also not sure you can point to a single male wrestler who has either, though I'd be open to the numbers there, though they'll obviously be incredibly limited given that NXT has only run a few shows off campus.

It doesn't matter if the women drew in NXT, because NXT is the draw not the wrestlers. The fact they can run a house show with women on top, or have the women as the semi-main on every show proves that it can work.

 

If NXT is a success than women can be featured in prominent roles and it be successful.

 

 

If NXT is the draw as you initially stated, how are the women -- or anything other than the NXT brand -- successful? Can't have it both ways.

 

NXT is the draw. NXT puts women in prominent places and is known for that.

[sek69]

Everyone seems to be dancing around the elephant in the room that no matter if you think WWE should/shouldn't/can/can't attempt to make the Divas division something other than the piss break match, the truth is they just WON'T until a different mindset is making the final call.

 

 

I'm 100% positive if Vince woke up tomorrow and said "Goddamn, we're gonna make the Divas the focus of Raw!" that they could get the wider WWE Universe to accept them like the NXT crowd does. It's hard to do that when the man in charge has a view of women that makes the Duggar family look like a bastion of liberal feminism.

 

I mean, if you guys are just sparring to sharpen your debate skills by all means carry on. I just noticed things were getting kind of heated for a topic that won't pass beyond hypothetical for the foreseeable future.

[Jimmy Redman]

I’ve waited until now to throw my two bob in, it’s been fascinating to read this thread, and really to read everyone’s reactions since Sasha-Becky. The women in WWE hardly ever get this level of interest or scrutiny from serious boards such as this one. Seeing people other than me giving Divas such effusive praise is kind of surreal as far as message board experiences go. So excuse me if I start to ramble and this seems to not be about anything in particular. I just have a lot to say on the subject.

 

I think there are two broad issues at play, and they aren’t necessarily related even though they seem to be, and even though for a lot of people they should be. One question seems to be “Are the women good workers and could they deliver high quality matches with more time and opportunities to do so?” And the other can be summed up in Grimmas’ original question, “Why can’t the women headline WWE PPVs again?”

 

For those who mentioned the women main eventing TV, I should point out, it has already happened. In 2000 Lita vs Steph main evented Raw with Hunter, Rock and the Hardyz at ringside. And more to the point, in 2004 Lita vs Trish for the title main evented Raw with no male involvement whatsoever. In 2011 AJ Lee was all over Raw during the Punk/Bryan/Kane angle and then her term as GM, and probably could have had a main event match in that time if she’d had a female rival. The girls can definitely main event Raw if they are over enough and presented as a big deal.

 

As far as PPV goes, they’ve never really been in a position to draw on PPV so it’s impossible to say. I will venture to guess that Trish’s retirement match at Unforgiven 2006 was a not insignificant factor in that show doing a good number, but with HIAC and TLC matches on that card as well it’s hard to stretch much further than that. Trish vs Mickie at WM22 was a huge deal at the time, but not even I am insane enough to try to attribute a Wrestlemania number to the Divas match when even the World Title match was about the fourth match down. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other women’s match that was put in a featured, drawing position for a PPV. Steph vs Brie maybe?

 

There’s no fundamental reason why a women’s match couldn’t sell PPVs just the same as men’s matches do. As long as you have wrestlers who are over and a match that people want to see. To me it’s the same as asking “why couldn’t a tag team match sell PPVs?” Or cruiserweights, or trios, or minis, or anything else that isn’t a heavyweight match between males. Of course it could, if it was put into a position to and had something people wanted to see. I mean it’s not like trios wrestling has historically been a big deal in WWE, but they get a hot act like The Shield and hey presto, suddenly trios matches are the biggest thing on TV. And you can point to the same thing when they’ve had hot female acts like Trish, Lita, AJ, Steph, etc.

 

When you start talking about PPV main events, I feel like it unnecessarily blurs the issue because again, it’s like asking why a tag team match or a juniors match can’t headline a WWE PPV. They could in theory, of course, and have, but ideally you want your heavyweight title match to headline PPVs the vast majority of the time. That’s what it’s there for. It may not be the most equal of utopias, but there is a hierarchy in WWE and the world title match goes on top (generally speaking, of course, before you start listing every time that it doesn’t).

 

I personally would sing from the heavens and kiss every baby on earth if I saw women main event a WWE PPV. That sounds like all my dreams coming true. But I don’t think it will ever happen. I don’t think that hoping that it will is realistic. And I don’t think the amount of effort that would go into retraining the entire audience to accept a women’s match as a PPV headliner in WWE would really be worth it for WWE in the end. That’s really the key. You (Grimmas) asked at one point if it wasn’t worth trying. Honestly, I think the answer to that is no. It wouldn’t be worth the long-term upheaval, re-conditioning, adverse reactions and everything else to try it, just on the off chance of turning PPVs headlined by women into a viable option. They can barely get the historically successful formula of heavyweight male matches to draw PPVs anymore.

 

Now that is NOT to say that they shouldn’t bother with the women’s division. Of course they should! They should present the women on WWE exactly the way they present them on NXT, as a real division. They should protect them with booking, they should have clear direction and storylines. They should have real characters, be faces and heels, and cut promos. They should have feuds that are settled in the ring, and get enough time to work those matches. They should be presented as a real division, not as a joke, not as the piss break. If they did that, and ran with girls who got hot, I’m sure they would be able to main event TVs, contribute to selling PPVs, sell loads of merch, and all the rest of it. Like I said, they do that and all my dreams come true.

 

Now onto the other thing: the work.

 

When people are talking about Charlotte being green, or Sasha being overrated, or the girls having more time to plan matches and whatever else, to me it’s all missing the point. I need hardly point out that drawing often has very little to do with ring work. The quality of the girls’ matches really has nothing to do with how they fare, or could fare, as draws. I mean how many of you have taken Lita to task over her ring work? But she was one of the biggest female draws they ever had. If Charlotte catches on it’s not going to be when she learns to work the arm better, it will be because she catches on with her personality. Same with anyone else, male or female. So I mean arguing about things like who on the main roster could work a match like Sasha/Becky, for example, doesn’t really matter to the question of whether they can become draws.

 

It’s all about presentation. Someone in this thread said something like “if you took random girls’ Main Event match X and put it on NXT, people would be praising it.” I am always loathe to use the “if you put this match move-for-move here/with the sound off/in front of a different crowd/in Japan/etc…” argument because it’s impossible to remove a match from it’s surroundings. Everything has a context. But in this particular instance there’s a kernel of truth there I think. NXT women’s matches are well received not only because they work well physically, but also because they are treated seriously, with characters who are over, in front of a crowd who appreciates them. If you strip all of those things away, most NXT women’s matches don’t look all that dissimilar physically to most long Divas matches on Main Event and Superstars.

 

The work has always been there with the Divas, you just have to look a LOT harder to find it. Now this is the part where I’m wary of passing my opinion off as something other than one person’s opinion about match quality. So I guess I just want to stress that you don’t have to agree with how I rate the Divas work, nor am I trying to say that all of these examples are equally good, or as equally good as the NXT match du jour. What I will say is that I would bet money that I have paid more attention to WWE Divas matches in the last decade than anyone else in this conversation. Paid more attention, showed more interest, enjoyed their work more and analysed their work in many, many more words. So take that kind of dedicated fandom for whatever it’s worth.

 

But again, I feel like the work is there. On NXT, Bayley at the moment is just the perfect loveable underdog babyface. Before her, Emma was the goofy loveable underdog babyface. But before either of them, there was Cherry. You might remember her as the rollerskating valet of Deuce and Domino. But after she split from them in 2008 she started working matches and she was EXACTLY that kind of loveable, underdog babyface. I was beside myself gushing over her potential as a pure girly babyface, and then after like a month she was released by the company for reasons past my understanding. When I watch Bayley, or when I watched Emma version 1, it always crosses my mind that I wish Cherry had this kind of opportunity to run with her character back in 2008.

 

That’s just one example. Maybe you prefer the kind of heel work that a Sasha type provides. Take a look at Eve Torres in her glasses-wearing, “Assistant to Raw GM John Laurinaitis” phase, she transitioned to a working, Divas Champ role after that and was a great heel. Or Layla as part of Laycool, being a great bumping, stooging, comedic heel; running away from people, curling up into a ball, throwing ridiculous “hiyah” kicks. Or Beth and Nattie from 2011 as a monster heel team running over everyone. Or Victoria during her last year or so in the company, another girl who would just bitch and stooge all over the place. Ditto Alicia Fox when she’s really working heel. Or Melina the psycho, aggressive heel, shrieking and trying to pull people’s hair out from the roots. And most of all, watch Trish when she was walking around in 2004 as the best heel in the company.

 

Divas matches can look soft or overly-dance-like, but these girls can also hit hard. Beth Phoenix used to do the coolest strength spots, lifting multiple people and bending Melina into a pretzel. Melina herself was great at using her flexibility to lock on wacky submissions. When Michelle McCool turned heel she immediately started kneeing the absolute fuck out of people and it was glorious. Naomi and Nikki Bella should be renamed the Vicious Forearm Strike Club, and go around forearming bitches in the face forever. Alicia is very athletic, hits a sweet Northern Lights and has a sweet superkick. Even someone like Trish, who you don’t really think of as physical, she could throw some strikes.

 

The main thing about Divas matches is time, and a lack thereof. Five minutes is fine for a throwaway match on TV, but even the matches that are supposed to mean something only get that much time. PPV matches rarely reach ten minutes. Matches that need to tell a story never get enough time to adequately tell that story. That said, I am always mightily impressed with just how much the girls can get out of four or five minutes of ring time. In fact I think in turn it has made me appreciate men’s matches that run about that amount of time, if they can do something interesting with it.

 

I am one of only three people in the world who know that Natalya and Alicia Fox have been feuding since 2011. The other two are Natalya and Alicia Fox. They work every match they have with each other this way, like they are genuine rivals, like it is the next match in a wider series of matches that they have fought and learned from. Most of these matches are on Superstars and Main Event with absolutely NO fanfare, pushed storyline or help from the office. They have seemingly just decided to feud. If the guys show that much attention to detail and long-term work over a series of matches on a C Show people would fall over themselves praising them. In fact they did, if you look at the reputations Chris Masters, Drew Mac and others cultivated on Superstars. Nattie and Alicia do the same kind of work, but nobody could possibly pay attention.

 

If you want something “bigger”, check out the Beth vs Kelly series from 2011. Summerslam was their most famous match, but it’s a whole series that includes Night of Champions and HIAC, and they weave a great story through them. Kelly Kelly is basically John Cena in these matches, the champion who is ostensibly a babyface but rejected by crowds who prefer her heel challenger as more of a “real” wrestler. And she works exactly like Cena does in those situations, all “time to go to work” and bravely heading into hostile territory and soldiering on.

 

I’m rambling away now, but my overarching point in listing all of these examples, is again not necessarily to say that these matches or these Divas are better than or equal to the current NXT girls and matches. My point is that I think almost every single one of these examples would have come across better taking place in current-day NXT with all of the booking protection, time and crowd support that comes with it. The key difference between NXT girls and WWE girls is not levels of talent. It is opportunity, it is presentation. When someone like Paige looks like a million bucks in NXT and then woeful in WWE, she doesn’t suddenly become 100 times shittier overnight. She goes from an environment where everything is designed to showcase her to her advantage, to an environment where she is an afterthought at best, and horribly portrayed and sabotaged at worst. Who here doesn’t think that if Paige were shipped back to NXT she’d start working better matches and looking like the Paige of old? Isn’t that exactly what has happened with Emma?

 

And yet when this happens the instinct from so many people is to criticise the wrestler, like being a main roster Diva has exposed Paige for the terrible wrestler that she is, instead of her being chewed up and spat out by being a main roster Diva. If, say, Sami Zayn gets called up and completely botched as a character and given no time for matches, are people going to talk about how Sami was always a shitty wrestler and now we all see it because he can’t get over in WWE? Or maybe they will lament that Sami is not put into a position to showcase the talent that we already know he has.

 

That’s how I feel about a lot of the Divas. I wish I could wrap up every single Diva in WWE and ship them en masse to NXT, to a place where they can try being real wrestlers, where they get time to work matches, where they get real characters, promo time, motivations, storylines, progression, and a crowd that cares about them. THEN you will see some motherfucking work, just like you already do with the girls who have been lucky enough to come up through present-day NXT. The problem is not the girls, it has never been the girls. It is the presentation. NXT pretty definitively proves that.

[Johnny Sorrow]

http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwe-divas/nxt-diva-roundtable

[Johnny Sorrow]

creepy clammy men like yourself.

Says "Bad Little Kitten". Is that your Grindr name, too? Seriously, I'm looking for some fun.

[Badlittlekitten]

What are the best NXT Paige matches (that didn't involve Emma)?