GOTNW Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Kawada was Tenryu's stablemate and heir and inherited his finisher and attitude amongst other things.....but did he surpass him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think this is where longevity hurts Kawada. Whereas Tenryu has decades of great work, Kawada has about a decade of great work... a really freaking great decade but I don't know if it overcomes Tenryu's longevity. We had long drawn out bloodbath discussions and arguments about peak vs. longevity. Well, both of these guys had amazing peaks. Longevity is going to have to be my tiebreaker. Tenryu wins this round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 That's only if you think both guys have amazing peaks. In my book, peak Kawada absolutely demolishes peak Tenryu. Looking at it in terms of fundamentals, Kawada had better offense, better execution, better psychology, was better at selling, and was better on the mat. What was Tenryu better at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 goodhelmet said it better then I could. Tenryu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 That's only if you think both guys have amazing peaks. In my book, peak Kawada absolutely demolishes peak Tenryu. Looking at it in terms of fundamentals, Kawada had better offense, better execution, better psychology, was better at selling, and was better on the mat. What was Tenryu better at? Looking vaguely unimpressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Tenryu was better at doing more with less. The majority of the time he spent as a great wrestler he was broken down physically. He's a case of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. He was great before, during and after Kawada ever was. Don't get me wrong though. I love Kawada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 At his peak, Tenryu was an awesome brawler/seller, heel/face. He was able to convey emotion and character remarkably well after 1986, especially when considering he seemed bland and colorless mostly before that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I look at it as Tenryu's incredible longevity vs. Kawada's lofty peak. If Kawada's peak were only 3, 5, or even 7 years, I would probably give it Tenryu, but Kawada was an elite, high end worker for at least 10 years. I choose Kawada. His peak is one of the highest of any wrestler ever. It's kinda hard to compete with that, though I do think Tenryu and Kawada will end up pretty close together on my GWE ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 They will probable end up 4 and 5 on mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Kawada has the best men's singles match I've ever seen and the two best men's tags I've ever seen. That's an incredible peak, and while Tenryu definitely had himself some high points, I don't think it matches Kawada even with the longevity argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Doing more with less is great. Doing much more with more is even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Having great matches with the best wrestlers in the world for 10 years is great. Having great matches with everyone under the sun for 20 years is even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 If we stretch the term "great" to the lengths it would need to be to cover "everyone under the sun for 20 years", then it's not like Kawada only had great matches with great wrestlers. He had a great match with Albright, who was far from a great wrestler. Given the standards that I've seen applied to some of Tenryu's "great" matches, then I got to see Kawada wrestle a great match with Johnny Ace, who wasn't remotely close to great at the time. If Tenryu had the exact same match with a rookie like Kawada had with Akiyama in July 1993, it would be called "great" and losing their shit over how awesome Tenryu was working with a rookie (and I'm completely confident that we could sift through the Tenryu Great Matches Lists and find one that is the same type of match). Rookie Akiyama was a pretty good rookie, but let's be honest and admit that people were still arguing whether Jun was great when the decade was *ending*, and no one thought he was in 1993. Â So it's a bit spurious to say that on Tenryu Great Matches Scale that Kawada only had them against great workers like Jumbo, Misawa, Kobashi, Taue (when he was Great), Hansen, Doc (when he was Great), etc. He had some "great" matches against less than great wrestlers, and with some guys before they later got great. Â That doesn't have anything to do with the Longevity issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well you're right about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well, it's not like Kawada had a short career of putting up great matches on the Tenryu Great Matches Scale. People at the time thought he was putting up "great" matches in 1988 against the likes of Nakano & Takano and of course in The Last Match of the Year. And I have a pretty vivid memory of a mountain of snowflakes being piled onto his jobbing the Triple Crown to Kojima in 2005. Â Tenryu has him be a few years in the beginning, and depending on how deep one goes into the Tenryu Great Matches Scale has his a bit on the back end. Though I do recall seeing the name "Kawada" in one of those Great Tenryu Matches that happened in 2008... so that would stretch Kawada out another three years. Â Again, that's no saying Tenryu doesn't have him on longevity. But it's not like the number of years Kawada was having "great" matches was Yatsu-long or Doc-long or Austin-long. Kawada was having what people saw as really good matches for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Tenryu didn't have great matches with everyone under the sun for 20 years. And even if he did, there's a pretty big difference between "great matches" and "the greatest matches of all time." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 You're acting as if Tenryu wasn't in some of "the greatest matches of all time." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Tenry had more charisma and was able to put over the possibility of losing to a lower card guy better than almost anyone. He and Kawada are very close and on paper I think Kawada would be better but Tenryu is one of the GOAT when it comes to creating drama within a match. Whether on offense or defense he can make a match ten times more interesting and exciting in the blink of an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I'm trying to remember buying that a lower card guy was going to beat Tenryu. Maybe he jobbed a lot to lower card guys in SWS and WAR to make people believe he was going to job, or even a possibility that he was going to job. Â We probably shouldn't confuse him with Ric Flair, who got his ass kicked by so many people that when he was getting it kicked by someone like Sam Houston, you actually were worrying that Dusty had lost his fucking mind and was going to have Flair job to set up a match. Or actually jobbing to Mike Von Erich, rather than creating a possibility of jobbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Some quickexamples. vs Takagi in 90. vs takano in 90. In the WAR/NJPW feud. Against some of the UWFi guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Yoji Anjo for sure, as well as Ashura Hara in Hara's retirement match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Vs KENTA in 2005 as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Watched the Takagi match, and the whole fun, goofy Giant Series. Never for a moment thought that anything other than Tenryu getting the winning the singles match was going to happen. Â In New Japan, anything could happen. After all, Choshu put over Hash in 1989... and 1990... and 1991 along with Chono and jobbing all his G1 matches. Choshu has established the concept that top guys could lose, even guys like Choshu who were bigger stars than Tenryu. That was an underlying element of the NJPW vs WAR feud, and Choshu worked the curveball on it: Tenryu wasn't booked to job to the younger guys until heading out the door, and instead only did to Choshu and Fujinami to save the putting over of a young guy for bigger impact. Â Didn't fell it against the UWFi guys other than Takada. Â Hara? Old friend going out the door, if you watched it live maybe you get swepted up in the possibility that Tenryu would put his old friend over. Not really a standard way to go out, but you never know. Â Does Tenryu have Jumbo-Misawa moment where he really put over a lesser guy and elevated him in a meaningful way? Â One really can't point to Hash. Like I said, he had three singles wins over Choshu by that point, including a Dome win. He was the IWGP Champ at the time, and not a flukey one. He'd already been elevated and "made" almost five years earlier and repeatedly since. Â Again... Tenryu isn't Flair. For those of us who were Flair Fans at the time, you actually got worried that he was going to job to guys, include ones below him. Part of that was because he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Vs KENTA in 2005 as well  You thought Kenta has a shot of winning that?  If we're going by a Tenryu Made A Lower Guy Look Like A Winner standard, then in the Kawada-Ace that I got to see, Kawada made Johnny look like he was going to win. Just totally laid his ass out for Ace's transition, sold the fuck out of Ace's attempts to put him away, etc.  I've always thought highly of that Kawada-Ace match. I now have a new reason to add some more snowflakes to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 That KENTA match is a horrible example. Don't get me wrong it's an amazing match but it's also an extended squash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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