John Cena vs. Bret Hart

[JerryvonKramer]

Well that's just patently untrue unless Cena vs Rock II is 100% of your sample size.

I've seen lots of Cena matches. The AA seems to account for most of what he does. His portion of that triple threat match vs. Rollins from the Rumble was an example of it. How many AAs do you think Cena has hit just on PPVs in the past two years?

 

I really hate the style. Really do.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

I'm firmly Cena here. Mainly due to the variety of great matches he has had against different type of workers.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

Well that's just patently untrue unless Cena vs Rock II is 100% of your sample size.

I've seen lots of Cena matches. The AA seems to account for most of what he does. His portion of that triple threat match vs. Rollins from the Rumble was an example of it. How many AAs do you think Cena has hit just on PPVs in the past two years?

 

I really hate the style. Really do.

As a proportion of his total offense? A lot less than 70% I assure you. I'm tempted to find an answer for you though.

 

There are certain matches where Cena uses or goes for a lot of AAs. And worryingly it seems to happen more frequently now. But it doesn't account for the majority of his matches.

 

And yeah I completely understand not being able to get into a style.

[The Man in Blak]

I still have a lot of Cena to watch before casting my vote here, but the idea of Bret being a worker that wasn't versatile kind of blows my mind.

[Loss]

How would Bret have worked Summerslam 2014? I can't see him letting Brock gobble him up like that, or even like he did at Extreme Rules for that matter. That's not a criticism, but I am just not sure how he would work with someone like that. Obviously, he'd have great matches with Punk and Bryan, and most likely Umaga. Cena arguably had better matches with Shawn than Bret did when Shawn was past his prime, and I can't see him not having great matches with Steve Austin and Owen Hart. I do think the Cena-Lesnar series is a strong tipping point in Cena's favor. Bret's closest equivalent is the Diesel series, I guess.

[Matt D]

Bret vs Bam Bam at King of the Ring 93? (Granted he won that, but he could have NOT won it just as easily)

 

Maybe it wouldn't be as big of a spectacle but it'd still be a hell of a match and afterwards, Bret wouldn't go on TV the next night and cut a promo basically saying it didn't matter, at least. He would have sold what happened as the most important thing in the world. If you're going to bring it to that level, then Bret's entire development as a character was based on wins and losses mattering. Cena's about as far from that as possible. We're veering into sort of weird territory though.

[The Man in Blak]

I'm not sure what the fantasy match speculation buys us in this comparison but, while we're here, how would John Cena have worked Bob Backlund?

 

(Glib answer: he would have worked him however the gaggle of WWE "producers" would have told him.)

 

Separate-but-somewhat-related-question for versatility: what are Cena's best performances for selling limbwork?

[JerryvonKramer]

Charles, do you really see Cena having the sort of match with Owen that Bret did?

[elliott]

Parv, Cena had the sort of match with Owen that Bret did. But he did it against Daniel Bryan at SummerSlam 2013 and (I think) had a better match than Bret vs Owen.

 

Seriously. Watch that match. It is sooo fucking great.

[Matt D]

Man, I don't know. We should do a thread where we all watch those two matches and compare/contrast them.

[elliott]

The matches make for an even better comp than the feuds.

 

Cena/Brock Extreme Rules vs Bret/Austin WM

Cena/Punk MITB vs Bret/Austin Survivor Series

Cena/Bryan SummerSlam vs Bret/Owen WM

Cena/Umaga Rumble vs Bret/Davey Boy IYH

Cena/Punk 2013 Raw Match vs Bret/Davey Boy SummerSlam

Cena/Rey Raw vs Bret/123 Kid Raw

Cena/Orton SummerSlam vs Hart/Hennig SummerSlam

Cena/Shawn Marathon Raw vs Bret/Shawn WM

Cena/JBL Bash vs. Bret/Piper Mania

Cena/Mark Henry MITB 2013 vs Hart/Bigelow (pick your favorite)

Cena/Rusev series vs Har/Diesel series

Cena/Khali vs. Bret/Sid Whenever

Cena/Brock/Rollins Triple Threat vs Bret/Vader/Austin/Taker Final 4

Nexus SummerSlam 2010 vs Canadian Stampede

 

Something like that.

[ohtani's jacket]

A lot of those seem like clear wins to Bret for me. It seems like there's a dividing line between people who've stopped watching the product and people who've continued, though perhaps that's stating the obvious.

[JerryvonKramer]

Man, I don't know. We should do a thread where we all watch those two matches and compare/contrast them.

I'd happily take part. Would be an interesting thing to do.

[Loss]

Charles, do you really see Cena having the sort of match with Owen that Bret did?

 

Not the same sort of match, no, nor should he.

[elliott]

A lot of those seem like clear wins to Bret for me. It seems like there's a dividing line between people who've stopped watching the product and people who've continued, though perhaps that's stating the obvious.

 

I stopped watching WWE regularly in 2002.

 

Spent the last 3-4 years watching a good deal of what I missed before that as well as most of the current pimped stuff.

 

I nominate Wrestling Culture to do a Bret vs Cena pod.

[NintendoLogic]

I haven't watched Cena/Bryan in a while, but the main thing I remember about it is how much I hated the slapfight at the end. And yes, I saw the Raw promo. I still hated it.

[DR Ackermann]

When I watch a typical Hart match, it's abundantly clear to me that I'm watching a performance where all the spots are laid out in advance. It takes a worker with more emotion and charisma than a paper bag to be able to make things seem organic, and beyond a handful of exceptions, Hart hasn't been been up to the task.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think there's a big disconnect between people who see Cena as a worker that is better than Bret or even on his level, and others who just don't really see it.

 

I'm in the latter camp. I think Backlund is a much better comparison point for numerous reasons (to Cena that is).

 

Another guy who was not all that special with some awkward aspects to his work, but who was on top long enough and worked enough main events to have great matches to his name. They both worked a style I don't care for too, but that's by the by. Both also champions pushed by the office who weren't accepted by all parts of the audience.

 

I have Backlund in the 90-100 range and if Cena makes it, he'll be right around there for me. But I suspect both will be making way for lucha and WoS guys.

[ohtani's jacket]

Backlund and Cena are worlds apart as workers. The real comparison (in my mind) is Cena and Tenryu.

[elliott]

I was not expecting that sentence to end with Tenryu.

 

Share your thoughts. You got my attention.

[Dylan Waco]

I am going to go back and read comments written by others after I post this because i don't want to be influenced.

 

As a star I think the answer is Cena. As a mic worker I think the answer is Cena, though Cena at his worst is more offensive than Bret at his worst. At the absolute peak of his act Bret was better (the Canada v. U.S./bitter Bret run), but it was short and some of his best work their was sitting in wheel chair.

 

As a worker - which is really what I voted on - I picked Cena without much hesitation.

 

Bret is a really weird wrestler to me in that I tend to shift back and fourth on him. At times I have thought his peak period (probably 92-97 subtracting for the time missed for injury and contract stuff of course) was very strong, with a solid amount of good and even great matches, against a wide variety of opponents, especially for the period. At other times I've thought of this run as artificially inflated because of the shift in and nature of the business at the time. At the end of the day I think the answer with him probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

I do appreciate what he was able to do with guys like Diesel, Hakushi, drugged Davey Boy, and a roided Piper. That said I think Bret was way more likely to coast as an ace than Cena was, and this despite the fact that Cena's era was arguably better suited to coasting than Bret's was.

 

Bret was a tighter and more mechanically sound wrestler but to me that carries plusses and minuses. At best his work had a precision to it that really did make him look like the excellence of execution. At worst he came across as almost too calculated, lacking any personality, and coming across as way to inorganic for my tastes. By contrast Cena at his worst is a mess, but I think his lack of polish is often a net advantage as it fits his gimmick, and often comes across as a guy trying anything he can because he's so obsessed with being the top dog.

 

As an ace I think Cena is better than Bret. To me Bret always came across as a guy who was holding the torch, instead of the guy carrying it. This is one of reasons I criticize his cute roll up finish spots - in theory they are great, and in isolation I like almost all of them, but on the broader scale I think they make for a weak way to work as an ace/top guy. People criticize "Super Cena," but I prefer my top guys to feel like top guys, and not guys who were merely just crafty enough to survive.

 

In terms of volume of good matches I think Cena stomps Bret pretty badly but he has an advantage there working in an era saturated with big events and weekly t.v. that airs main event matches between top talents as a rule. That said I don't think Bret has the advantage in great matches or great performances either. Hell I'm not even sure I believe Bret's absolute best matches are better than Cena's, and I think Cena has more matches I'd identify as true classics. I'm not even sure Bret's best series is better than Cena's, as I really like Cena/Punk pairing at a level near that of Bret/Austin. It's an aside, but I also find it amusing that Cena had better matches with Michaels, though I suppose there are some who will disagree with that.

 

I suppose if I thought better of the Hart Foundation, Bret might be able to gain some ground, but they aren't a team I'm super impressed with. I don't hate them, but even if we are restricting to U.S./Canada tag teams, I'm not sure they are one of the twenty best teams from the 80's, they were never the best team in the States (never close in my view), and they have as many dry matches as any allegedly "good" act I can think of from the period.

 

Bret's early forays into singles work in the WWF against guys like Savage could be damn good, and I don't ever think he got bad (he was still having good matches with guys like Benoit and Luger of all people in "the" WCW). I don't think you could pinpoint any point from 85 or so through his forced retirement in 99 when he was less than a good worker, and there were certainly stretches where he was great. But I don't think he had a run like 06-07 Cena where the character, booking and in ring work all seemed to fuse together to form a bigger picture, where it felt like you were literally watching a guy become a legendary figure before your very eyes. More than that I think Cena has been good-to-great for just as long as Bret was, with higher highs, and more performances that jump off the page to me.

 

I don't mean to sound dismissive of Bret, and there is a sense in which he strikes me as the "right pick," but I don't honestly think he's better than Cena. I'm not even sure I'll have him above Arn Anderson who I actually think is comparable to him in a lot of ways, just a tier or two lower on the cards.

[Jimmy Redman]

Separate-but-somewhat-related-question for versatility: what are Cena's best performances for selling limbwork?

 

I will get to specifics, but one thing to note about Cena (and whether you think this is a positive, negative, curiosity or anything else is up to you) is that he doesn't often go in for limbwork, either giving or receiving. His matches are just rarely about that. Usually when they are it is a necessity based on a real life injury or something.

 

Having said that, there are examples. Cena vs Shawn at WM23 is the most famous example, although one that is controversial as the leg sell is only in the first half of the match. A lot of people take issue with that, although I don't have a problem with it and can explain my reasons why later.

 

It's not really the kind of performance you're looking for at all, because Cena only spends about 60 seconds in the ring, but my favourite limb selling performance of his is actually him with Bryan and Kane vs The Shield on Raw, 29/4/13. Cena has some kind of real life ankle injury, from memory, and spends the whole match selling it on the apron. It's better than I'm making it sound because Cena is fantastic on the apron, and everything he does really sells that he's injured.

 

It's not the first thing you'd think of, but Cena does a fantastic job selling the ribs in the big LMS match vs Umaga. In fact I'd wager that in his career, more than selling an arm or leg, Cena has more often sold his ribs/back (especially vs monsters) and worked around trying and failing to lift guys up and hit the FU, before eventually doing so.

 

And that last thing really speaks to the kind of worker Cena is, and why I think it's really weird to compare him to Bret as they're almost complete opposites as workers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bret as a worker seems to be focused on the micro, and on the physical side. He likes working tight and making moves look both smooth and believable, and in crafting matches that "make sense" move to move, matches that look good. Bret is about execution. Cena is the opposite of that, he's a macro worker. He's OTT and physically working for the cheap seats, and also works matches less as athletic contests and more as morality plays. It's big picture stuff, the triumph of good vs evil, with Cena as an eternal Superman. Execution is the last thing on Cena's mind.

 

And it seems that more than a divide between modern WWE followers or not, it really depends on what you value more as to who you vote for: execution or symbolism.

[ohtani's jacket]

I was not expecting that sentence to end with Tenryu.

 

Share your thoughts. You got my attention.

 

Neither guy is that good technically, but they've both got reps as big match workers and are popular in online circles.

[The Man in Blak]

 

 

When I watch a typical Hart match, it's abundantly clear to me that I'm watching a performance where all the spots are laid out in advance. It takes a worker with more emotion and charisma than a paper bag to be able to make things seem organic, and beyond a handful of exceptions, Hart hasn't been been up to the task.

Setting the over-the-top snark aside, I think there is a kernel of truth hiding in here that speaks to "versatility" from a different angle than I was originally thinking: emotional breadth.

 

Bret's work in the ring exemplifies a very specific tone for professional wrestling. Bret did have the capacity to show some fire, as well as a mean streak, but those characterizations were still variations of a similar theme: professional wrestling as stoic competition that only occasionally breaks down when the animosity between two competitors can't be contained by the rules. So many aspects of Bret's performance drive home that wins and losses are important and what happens in that ring is *real*, even after the match is over.

 

But there's no room left for theatricality. There's no room left for larger-than-life escapism or soaring emotion. There's no room for, ahem, sports entertainment.

 

And there's a very sad possibility that Bret would have been as awkward and out of place in 1998 or 1999, even if Montreal and Owen's death wouldn't have happened, because that notion of wrestling was rapidly losing ground to an approach that, for better or worse, more directly engaged with the fans emotionally.

 

Bret's match with Piper at Wrestlemania VII is one of my favorite Bret matches, but it's also demonstrative of this hole in his game. He has some clever moments (like playing possum to nearly sucker Piper into a pinfall), but even that moment is mainly couched in competition, presenting Bret as a crafty competitor who's not above exploiting Piper's misplaced sympathy for that all-important victory. All of the rest of the emotion in that match orbits around Piper and what he discovers he's willing (and not willing) to do to retain the only championship he's even had the opportunity to hold. It's not that Bret isn't part of the story; it's that he is far from being the primary agent of its change or its delivery to the crowd.

 

His feud with Owen underscores this weakness in another way. In his WMX match with Owen, the animosity builds and builds, but it still never really breaks out of the structural conceit of competition; there's a slap, but it immediately drives into a nearfall for the victory. And, sure, perhaps that approach was meant to leave room for and build to more heated conflict in the next match, a freaking cage match at Summerslam that was begging for that Magnum/Tully moment, the suggestion that the hatred between these two men finally transcended wrestling, transcended competition, transcended family. But that moment of danger never arrives. Never even comes close.

 

I love the Piper match. I love the Owen WMX match. I love the 1-2-3 Kid title defense on Raw. I love the SS and WM13 matches with Austin, another heated feud that FINALLY teased out some real emotions from Bret, from frustration to national pride. But, with the exception of Piper/Bret, I love those matches primarily because of their craft, their artistry through the form of wrestling, rather than their stories. And there's more than one way to tell a story in a wrestling ring than just professional wrestling.

[ohtani's jacket]

And it seems that more than a divide between modern WWE followers or not, it really depends on what you value more as to who you vote for: execution or symbolism.

 

 

I dunno about this. Bret built up a mythos around himself that he was a working class guy in a world of seven foot giants and four hundred pound monsters who overcame the odds because he was the best at what he did; the Wayne Gretsky of wrestling that the coal miners and the lumberjacks could relate to. And the thing was that he believed it. That's what made his heel turn so brilliant because blurred the lines between scripted TV and his legit bitterness. The problem is that he wasn't that gifted a performer in terms of charisma or projecting a presence, which means even the big title wins are more downbeat than you'd expect from a truly beloved performer. He was popular and had a following, but when Austin and Rock came along they eclipsed him in terms of star presence. A lot of Bret's stuff has some nice subtlety to it even if it's a bit boring to revisit. I'm sure a Cena fan could break down his character better than I can, but I think Bret is a bit underrated when it comes to persona.