GOTNW Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 I also think we need to talk more about Santo vs Casas. I'm not a lucha expert by any means but I've seen a fair amount of Casas and a couple of Santo matches. Currently I like Casas a lot more and find him to be more versatile, but my viewing sample for Santo has been very limited. They are going to be among the best ranked luchadores on the GWE list so this should be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Santo was real cool when I met him and signed a mask I have here in the man cave. That was the tie-breaker for me. I love both of these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Immediate reaction from the gut without ANY thinking whatsoever is that Casas is more dependable, could make for a longer highlight reel and is much more versatile -- but Santo wins because of higher highs. But I'd want to think more on it before putting pen to paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Is there any argument for Santo other than "higher highs?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Great matches, iconic figure, great peak, toe to toe with Casas in longevity, higher highs, signed my mask. Why don't you make an argument, Matt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Casas is the only guy that makes me forget how fucking horrible and distracting Lucha commentary is. I've already talked about how I can barely watch Lucha with how unbearable commentary is, so the guy who is able to make me enjoy the action and tune out play-by-play he gets my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Is there any argument for Santo other than "higher highs?" I don't get where this higher highs thing is coming from. Feuding with Casas was arguably the high point of Santo's career. Santo was formulaic -- his trios match performances were almost always the same, his apuesta matches were almost always the same and his title matches were almost always the same. His execution was exquisite, and a lot of his signature stuff is breathtaking no matter how many times you've seen it, but with a guy like Santo the highs people are talking about depend a lot on his opponent. Santo is the constant, but the highs come from Brazo de Oro being in there or Espanto Jr. Casas, in his prime, had a hell of rivalry with Ultimo Dragon, and we know how maligned Ultimo is around here. Casas was more creative and the better performer. Santo wrestled behind a mask while Casas was a brilliant actor and highly expressive, so I won't compare their selling other to say that Santo sold extremely well for a masked wrestler. Santo was the better brawler and bleeder. They're about even on the mat (neither are hugely impressive in that regard, IMO.) Casas was legitimately the best guy in Mexico in '92-93 in a promotion that was falling apart whereas there's no period where Santo is clearly the best guy in the country. I have long suspected that Santo's best work was his early 90s UWA stuff, but we only have a small sampling of it. What Casas was doing in CMLL was more impressive to me because the UWA and later AAA were stacked with talent. For longevity, Casas has had the longer TV career and adapted over time to avoid being culled. Santo often looks good when he shows up on tape, but it's the same formula from the past thirty years. I'd take Casas because you know you're getting a more exciting, outrageous performance that could peak at the level of genius whereas with Santo it's more predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I went with Santo because he has quite a few impressive bloodbaths under his belt which is something Casas' career seems to be otherwise lacking. Unless I'm missing something there. I agree with OJ and Casas probably has more good/diverse matches on tape, but for me those two are almost interchangably close and Santito's aura matches Casas' character work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I voted for Casas, OJ has explained it in a much more eloquent way that I could ever do. I know this is somewhat of an intangible and something hard to explain or measure but to me Casas is one of the few wrestlers that is an actual pro wrestling genius. He could do anything and everything and there are very few ever at his level when it comes to crowd control or longevity. I know Konnan is a legendary bullshitter but I remember (and believe) a story about him being a green musclehead boxer in Tijuana back in 1989 and being amazed at seeing Casas making the crowd hate him, then laugh and then making young women cry, sometimes in the same match. Santo was a great wrestler and people have now forgotten but he'd work as hard in front of 500 than in front of 15000 people. He is a generational icon and a first ballot no questions asked Hall of Famer... but not a genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I am camping this week, but I figured by saying that much then I would awaken OJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 People criticize Hijo del Santo as a formula wrestler, but Casas had stuff he'd go to also. Look at his matches with Ultimo Dragon (the 1992 one), Mocho Cota, and Bestia Salvaje. In all three of those Casas gets barely any offense and then pulls out basically a fluke win to cap off a disappointment. That's a difficult layout with which to have a satisfying match, and it's one that Santo would never have used - he was never going to let himself look worse in winning. Sure, he had a formula, but it was a good formula, one that I'm sure that he worked hard to hone and make as dramatic as possible, and there's no way he would have brought back iffy stuff for a second chance, let alone a third. That doesn't mean he always figured out how to make things work; he wrestled Psicosis a whole lot, and the two never nailed one of their matches. The standard Santo match, though, would almost certainly have been an improvement on any of those three from Casas. I agree that Santo doesn't have higher highs. Their best stuff is at the same level, but Santo has a higher number of great singles matches (of course, Santo has more singles matches on tape from his prime than does Casas). He was a better apuestas match wrestler than Casas and no worse in title matches. To me the case for Casas comes down to trios matches, where Santo was often at his most formulaic and Casas was still looking to shine. He could be annoying, like with his weird semi-feuds with Dandy and Felino in 1993, but there are far more times that he looked brilliant in those situations. It's been a while since I watched the buildup to a Santo singles match, though, so maybe I'm underrating him in that department. Anyway, shorter version: Santo was more formulaic but I don't think that makes him inherently worse than Casas, as not every idea Casas had was an ingenious one. Santo was a better and more consistent big match wrestler but not as consistent in the smaller ones. Right now I'd probably lean toward Casas, but I feel like I have it closer than most people who are choosing Casas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 That doesn't mean he always figured out how to make things work; he wrestled Psicosis a whole lot, and the two never nailed one of their matches. The standard Santo match, though, would almost certainly have been an improvement on any of those three from Casas. I am going to disagree with this one. I haven't watched their matches in ages and a lot of Psicosis' best stuff hasn't aged well at all, but they completely "nailed it" in their famous match where Psicosis won in 2 straight. At the time it was a huge match with the common fan as well as us smart fans and it would still be considered a legendary match if AAA was better at promoting their own history. For a very long time it was a landmark match that would often be on a lot of people's recommended match lists. In Mexico this match elevated Psicosis to a different level than even Rey Misterio Jr. and Juventud Guerrera had at the time (these two would have eventually gotten there but AAA shortly started falling apart). This is a match that I'll probably never rewatch again, though. I'm not dismissing your opinion and it's not the Dave Meltzer logic mind you, it's just that I know that I won't like it nearly as much. I have found that revisiting "golden era" AAA almost feels like a chore. I'd rather use the time to revisit overlooked CMLL from the same time frame. A lot of the post-AAA Psicosis vs. Santo was pretty bad and was even considered so back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Psicosis vs. Santo's rep has fallen in recent years. MJH took it apart in a fairly convincing manner. I certainly don't think Casas was successful in every match, but the potential was there to deliver something like the Fiera match, which I think is above and beyond the standard Santo match. I can see the argument for Santo's consistency, though. I like a lot of the stuff from Santo's heel run particularly the summer feud with Felino in '97 where he wrestles somewhat differently from standard tecnico Santo. There was a bit of a Japan influence to his work at that time, or so it seemed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Oddly enough, I think the best Santo-Psicosis match I've seen is the one they had in Promo Azteca in 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think the Santo/Espanto matches we have on tape are as good as anything Casas has done (on tape) but I generally agree that run of the mill Santo is much less than normal Casas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Modern Negro can still be so good. He got to work with Epehsto/Mephisto against Dragon Lee/Valiente/Mistico at Sin Salida in front of a big Arena Mexico crowd. Such a fun performance. He's still more crisp and fun to watch than almost anyone else active. I recommend it even if you're not in love with modern lucha. We talk about Jumbo being a world-class worker from 77-92, but we have footage of Negro from 1987-2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think the Santo/Espanto matches we have on tape are as good as anything Casas has done (on tape) but I generally agree that run of the mill Santo is much less than normal Casas. I wouldn't put the '88 bout in the same league as the '86 mask match or the '92 title bout. Both matches are really high end Santo, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Agreed, although the '88 match has some unique charm to it. Also has the slingshot cannonball flip spot that I've never seen done anywhere else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I went with Santo because he has quite a few impressive bloodbaths under his belt which is something Casas' career seems to be otherwise lacking. Unless I'm missing something there. I agree with OJ and Casas probably has more good/diverse matches on tape, but for me those two are almost interchangably close and Santito's aura matches Casas' character work. I don't put much stock into blading but I am interested in the prospect of Santo being a better brawler. For matches in which they aren't pitted against each other Casas has the La Fiera, Bestia Salvaje, Mocho Cota and Rush brawls while for Santo I can think of matches vs. LA Park, Perro Aguayo and Super Parka. I'm sure I'm missing some on both sides but it doesn't seem like a slam dunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I think Jetlag is comparing apuesta matches where Santo has always had the bloodier, more violent bouts such as the Brazo de Oro fight, the mask match against Espanto Jr, the Dandy hair match, and so forth. Casas is a good brawler but many of his apuestas have been bloodless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah, I get that, but as I said that's not something that matters terribly to me. Espanto Jr. mask match isn't really a brawl, feels more like an incredibly gritty title match with blade jobs. I liked the Brazo De Oro match as I watched it but honestly don't remember it much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Mask vs. mask is usually worked a little differently from hair matches, and there's certainly a gritty title match element to them, but I'd still classify them as brawls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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